What it's like playing Fizz.

HongChongDong··6 votes·745 views

Summary: Another rant regarding fizz's late game issues with teamfighting. He loses out late game to defensive item/stat counters preventing him from killing targets then dies to his linear mobility and lack of disengage.

He wins on feast and famine (the reason for his apparent success and high win rates) but if games are allowed to be drawn out to late game, the enemy itemizes like they should, and the comp isn't wacky then he becomes FAR less reliable than any other assassin. His last resort is to use his engage capabilities and hope his team can take care of the rest. Assassins typically can't one shot in these situations any way but others are given much more flexible kits that allow them to still outplay these situations with powerful mobility mechanics.


What it's like to play fizz:

Completely 1 sidedly stomp lane, and proceed to actually do things around the map. Our botlane lee sin and teemo of course hard lose lane VS Kog and Janna. Kog has barrier btw.

Come mid game my entire team collectively starts chasing kills, pressuring no objectives besides pushing a lane then leaving it, then lets our objectives go down for free.

With no team backing me I can't do anything to the enemy team roaming as a squad and very quickly the gold lead settles then rises in their favor. Defensive stats get stacked (even anivia builds tank items), janna gets her support items and I'm left in a position for the rest of the game where it's physically impossible for me to kill anyone on my own regardless of if I land my rotation right WITH max range ulty.

The team continues to chase around the enemy for quick skirmishes and trying to chase kills while still letting the enemy gain more and more map pressure. No real teamfight was ever actually had so it was mainly a game of catching a single person out with our side always losing pressure regardless of which side died more. With no chance of assistance from my team it made it completely impossible for me to do anything on my own against their champions and tankiness.

By late game I've completely tilted at the hopeless situation I'm in and start missing ults in fights because why in gods name does it matter if there's no way I can burst anyone even in optimal conditions. I tilt even harder and inevitably get flamed by my team and the enemy for missed ults.

What is the point of this? The fact is that Fizz (Akali as well for that matter) still doesn't have a counter to this brainless stat stacking. The enemy bought loads of MR and now I can't kill him but will die to him due to my own lack of defensive stats. Interactive counterplay. The assassins were touched and fizz was brought up to the chopping block because they had "Un-interactive gameplay" through 1 shot bursts yet the meta is filled with just as much Un-interactive mechanics such as shield supports and defensive items granting more power over champions building actual damage.


Analysis of the Late game teamfighting:

You have a pure melee range assassin with a 1 dimensional mobility pattern. If you land your shark then you have to use some combination of mobility spells to follow up. In almost all situations this REQUIRES the use of your E which is 1/3 of your kits damage and your only survivability. If by some other means or just due to the situation you do manage to get on the enemy and use your E for damage, if the target doesn't die you're still left with nothing. No way to finish the target, no way to escape, and not a damn bit of tankiness to survive what is about to come your way. Your only other option is to understand this from the getgo and not go in or hope your team will go in for you to follow up and hopefully do something.

Hourglass is an essential item for this very fact but Fizz's E was specifically nerfed so that you had a full 2 second window after coming out of stasis for your E to come back up to get to safety. Most bruisers can kill you in less than 1 second, and ADC's will definitely beable to kill you in that time. You're basically forced into a position to suicide just to blow cooldowns on the enemy, throw your ult on someone who you can't even damage, or not fight at all.

In the end if the game comes to this (which alot do) then you don't have any counterplay or outplay potential. You hope your team can do something or you sit back and accept defeat.

Someone somewhere will say this so I'll reply to it right now. The reason he has a high winrate AND is played in the LCS is for 2 reasons.

The first one is because he's the epitome of feast or famine. If he gets ahead in lane his ability to snowball the game is extremely high, because he can initiate a fight from a much longer distance than other champions he can actually do something with it. Of course as anyone knows though if he falls behind or it reaches the point where the enemy starts getting defensive items then no person who actually knows the game will deny that he becomes deadweight.

Except in LCS which is the next reason. The LCS is not solo queue and never will be. These are all players who are at the top and play in coordinated professional teams even if you'd like to call some of them bad just because they aren't the best of the best. The ability to initiate a fight from an extreme distance on the professional side of things is priceless. If the team makes the right call for an engage and a shark lands then the other 4 members of the team will actually know how to utilize the opportunity and start a winning fight. They can take advantage of Fizz's initiation strengths and his weakness's don't matter at that point.

But solo queue isn't like that. 90% of the time it's 5 different people all playing their own game and hoping the rest of their team doesn't screw up. In alot of cases they might not even be able to hold their own weight on the team.

Though this is also why fizz has always been better in lower elo (as are most assassins) because people in lower elo will pick stupid matchups, not know how to play them, and not know how to itemize properly.


So in the end it comes down to an assassins ability to actually do something on their own and In that regard I say fizz is far less capable than other assassins.

Yes it's very true that not all assassins can just outright one shot people but what other assassins have that fizz doesn't is proper disengage. Your Q is a targeted dash and your E is on a relatively long CD (with 40% CDR which isn't exactly easy to get in an optimal build) and always going to be unavailable to escape after an initiation because in most cases you have to use it to start said initiation. Alot of champions just chase you down regardless if you E away of not.


In my opinion there are 3 things that need to be looked at.

The first is fixing his mobility and giving him actual options for how he can approach a fight. Perhaps changing his E and giving him reset mechanics, maybe even ditching the untargetability because as long as that exists within his kit he'll be gated due to the the ability having the potential to be broken.

The second is to rework how his R and W works. One of the reasons fizz is so stiff with his options to fight is because of the stupid mark mechanic that was introduced that made it impossible to fight properly without your ult to stack the mark. Most damage champions will kill you before you can even activate it and then it comes back to being an issue of "Can I shot this person in my single rotation or will I fail and die".

The third and final thing to do is add in proper AP assassin itemization that we've been waiting on for ages. Would be a perfect time to actually introduce a strong passive/active item mechanic that counters shields. Of course making the items melee only, because the main reason why things like strong magic pen items haven't been introduced was the effects it could have on AP mages.

16 Comments

Vekkna3 votes

At least you admitted that picking Fizz means you get a free lane and free kills for most of the game. You realize that it's harder to play around all those enemy champs when you're never invincible than when you're only vulnerable for a 2-second window, right?

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

At least you admitted that picking Fizz means you get a free lane and free kills for most of the game. You realize that it's harder to play around all those enemy champs when you're never invincible than when you're only vulnerable for a 2-second window, right?

I wouldn't say free kills. If he snowballs well that's gonna be ridiculous indeed, but I've seen players as low as gold who actually understood how to play a safe lane and wait for themselves to scale while fizz started counter scaling himself. The fact that this sort of champion exists in the first place is all the more reason for a proper rework. Neither the enemy nor the player playing the champion should have to deal with such a playstyle.

And just because having hourglass is better than no hourglass doesn't change that fizz was nerfed so he couldn't abuse a get out of jail free card. Like I made a point of in the OP if your team is not properly backing you then it's only a matter of dying instantly or prolonging your death.

And yes I'll say it again that fizz's strength is the ability to abuse players who don't know how to play the lane ultra carefully then snowball using his strong initiation mechanics that other assassins don't have.

Moooose22 votes

Fizz is fine in fights if you actually know how to play him.

Go for flanks, itll help a shit ton with fish angles.. Other than that you should be splitting or playing around fog of war..

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

Fizz is fine in fights if you actually know how to play him.

Go for flanks, itll help a shit ton with fish angles.. Other than that you should be splitting or playing around fog of war..

I think you missed the major point of the post. Even if you land a fish a meta team who has properly itemized will have a great number of things to negate your damage and simply save whoever you're trying to kill. This is what I was getting at.

The meta is slowly drifting towards champions getting more and more safer. The last 2 champions alone gained untargetability on their ultimates which allow them outplay the enemy without building their entire kits around the ability thus gating their power like Riot did to Fizz.

Moooose21 votes

{quoted}

I think you missed the major point of the post. Even if you land a fish a meta team who has properly itemized will have a great number of things to negate your damage and simply save whoever you're trying to kill. This is what I was getting at.

The meta is slowly drifting towards champions getting more and more safer. The last 2 champions alone gained untargetability on their ultimates which allow them outplay the enemy without building their entire kits around the ability thus gating their power like Riot did to Fizz.

So then split push... I think you're missing the point and just don't know how the game works.

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

So then split push... I think you're missing the point and just don't know how the game works.

I'm not sure if you actually understand how the game works yourself. Going to push down a sidelane isn't somehow a fool proof strategy that'll actually work. It requires timing, map pressure from your team, and actually having pressure on the map yourself. If you can't 1v1 the top laner with TP and they just push you back then so much for your master plan.

Even if you can create some pressure on the map, that just goes to show you that you're still too damn weak to fight like a normal assassin and basically have to play like the shitty version of a Initiation tank, except without the useful parts.

Moooose21 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure if you actually understand how the game works yourself. Going to push down a sidelane isn't somehow a fool proof strategy that'll actually work. It requires timing, map pressure from your team, and actually having pressure on the map yourself. If you can't 1v1 the top laner with TP and they just push you back then so much for your master plan.

Even if you can create some pressure on the map, that just goes to show you that you're still too damn weak to fight like a normal assassin and basically have to play like the shitty version of a Initiation tank, except without the useful parts.

Split push and play around fog of war. Some champs just shouldn't teamfight, it's not hard to understand.

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

Split push and play around fog of war. Some champs just shouldn't teamfight, it's not hard to understand.

The assassin who's only strength is in initiation should just split push because the game is designed so he can't do anything? Also playing around vision doesn't do anything if you can't kill the target no matter what you do. It's not like I've already explained why splitpushing is not an end all solution or how landing your combo does not equal a kill.

It's honestly a great motto to follow by. Any time I hear someone say a champion is weak I'll remember to just go tell them to split push.

Moooose21 votes

{quoted}

The assassin who's only strength is in initiation should just split push because the game is designed so he can't do anything? Also playing around vision doesn't do anything if you can't kill the target no matter what you do. It's not like I've already explained why splitpushing is not an end all solution or how landing your combo does not equal a kill.

It's honestly a great motto to follow by. Any time I hear someone say a champion is weak I'll remember to just go tell them to split push.

You can easily kill all of these ardent supports.. It's really not that hard, they don't even have exhaust. Ignite early and you 1 shot them through heal. Sorry you're bad.

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

You can easily kill all of these ardent supports.. It's really not that hard, they don't even have exhaust. Ignite early and you 1 shot them through heal. Sorry you're bad.

What? Like what? Since when is it a rule that the support just doesn't take exhaust? I get it's in right now but that doesn't mean the support will always do this. Infact it's more common for the bot lane to take exhaust because people tend to stick with what they know rather than adapting to meta strats. That doesn't even touch on the fact that the support may not even be a shield based support and could very well be a tank. Alistar, Thresh, Leona, ect. I'm definitely not going to kill those and it'd be a waste of my life and my ult to even attempt it.

I can aim for the ADC but if it's a tank support they likely took something like trist, lucian, Sivir and Xayah. All of which has counterplay to dodge the ult and Xayah can still negate the ult if it hits. At the very least they will 90% of the time have a GA so even IF I can land the ult, manage to get passed the team, and get off an uninterrupted combo AND manage to actually deal meaningful damage then I'll still only have blown the GA CD and very likely die in the process. Keep in mind that even if they are a shield based support then they can still pop shields and defensive cooldowns on themself to negate the damage. In the case of tank supports they can still protect the team just as effectively with face of the mountain, Locket of the iron Solari, and Redemption which are core items for most of them.

There's also PLENTY of situations where the mid laner takes exhaust as well, as the closer you get to diamond ELO and above the more people realize that fizz is strong and if you don't take certain steps to counter him like taking exhaust then you die.

What if the situation is as you make it out to be? Then I go in, suicide bomb the support, and now I'm dead. Will my team do anything with that? Will they properly follow up into a fight or atleast use the opportunity? The answer is a simple no. Even if a proper fight starts off of your death then the rest of the enemy team is 99% likely to be unscathed and blew no major cooldowns, so your team is then left with the task of being able to perform your role for you and take out the carries. If not then they lose because the enemy team is likely to have the advantage of a proper mid laner who can ACTUALLY make a major difference in a teamfight. Orianna, Syndra, Ryze, Lux, Cass, ect.

If a fight is not started up then they're likely thinking to themselves "Our mid laner just suicided so it's best to back off" and thus nothing comes of your death.

For anything to work with your ideas of fizz you need to have an actual team which just simply isn't going to happen in your average solo queue match. If Fizz is incapable of killing carries then he's already a failure as an assassin.

Moooose21 votes

{quoted}

What? Like what? Since when is it a rule that the support just doesn't take exhaust? I get it's in right now but that doesn't mean the support will always do this. Infact it's more common for the bot lane to take exhaust because people tend to stick with what they know rather than adapting to meta strats. That doesn't even touch on the fact that the support may not even be a shield based support and could very well be a tank. Alistar, Thresh, Leona, ect. I'm definitely not going to kill those and it'd be a waste of my life and my ult to even attempt it.

I can aim for the ADC but if it's a tank support they likely took something like trist, lucian, Sivir and Xayah. All of which has counterplay to dodge the ult and Xayah can still negate the ult if it hits. At the very least they will 90% of the time have a GA so even IF I can land the ult, manage to get passed the team, and get off an uninterrupted combo AND manage to actually deal meaningful damage then I'll still only have blown the GA CD and very likely die in the process. Keep in mind that even if they are a shield based support then they can still pop shields and defensive cooldowns on themself to negate the damage. In the case of tank supports they can still protect the team just as effectively with face of the mountain, Locket of the iron Solari, and Redemption which are core items for most of them.

There's also PLENTY of situations where the mid laner takes exhaust as well, as the closer you get to diamond ELO and above the more people realize that fizz is strong and if you don't take certain steps to counter him like taking exhaust then you die.

What if the situation is as you make it out to be? Then I go in, suicide bomb the support, and now I'm dead. Will my team do anything with that? Will they properly follow up into a fight or atleast use the opportunity? The answer is a simple no. Even if a proper fight starts off of your death then the rest of the enemy team is 99% likely to be unscathed and blew no major cooldowns, so your team is then left with the task of being able to perform your role for you and take out the carries. If not then they lose because the enemy team is likely to have the advantage of a proper mid laner who can ACTUALLY make a major difference in a teamfight. Orianna, Syndra, Ryze, Lux, Cass, ect.

If a fight is not started up then they're likely thinking to themselves "Our mid laner just suicided so it's best to back off" and thus nothing comes of your death.

For anything to work with your ideas of fizz you need to have an actual team which just simply isn't going to happen in your average solo queue match. If Fizz is incapable of killing carries then he's already a failure as an assassin.

You do realize that if you combo correctly there's little to no room to actually exhaust?? You ult and then you're untargetable when you're using e. Again, I think you're just bad.

HongChongDong1 votes

Naw shit. But it's like you're focusing on a single subject and ignoring everything else that I'm saying. Ok, so exhaust doesn't hit me because I actually know how to press E, what then? What about ALL of the other points that I made?

FFS what if the target flashes away? They dodge my E in the process which leaves me open to exhaust and down 1/3 of my damage. I can use an E flash if I'm left enough time to react, but that still doesn't cover ANYTHING else of what I've made a point of.

Moooose21 votes

{quoted}

Naw shit. But it's like you're focusing on a single subject and ignoring everything else that I'm saying. Ok, so exhaust doesn't hit me because I actually know how to press E, what then? What about ALL of the other points that I made?

FFS what if the target flashes away? They dodge my E in the process which leaves me open to exhaust and down 1/3 of my damage. I can use an E flash if I'm left enough time to react, but that still doesn't cover ANYTHING else of what I've made a point of.

to sum up my argument, you're bad. I'm done having this argument with you. There's counterplay to everything, fizz is fine.

HongChongDong1 votes

So rather than having a logical debate over it and providing actual facts, you simply devolve into calling me bad because you have nothing else you can come up with to prove me wrong and validate your opinion?

Do not comment on any balance thread if you aren't capable of bringing anything to the discussion. Please and thank you.

Moooose21 votes

{quoted}

So rather than having a logical debate over it and providing actual facts, you simply devolve into calling me bad because you have nothing else you can come up with to prove me wrong and validate your opinion?

Do not comment on any balance thread if you aren't capable of bringing anything to the discussion. Please and thank you.

I've told you why multiple times. It would just seem that due to lack of intelligence or game knowledge you are unable to grasp basic concepts of the game.

HongChongDong1 votes

And each time I've stated my counter arguments, but each time you still refuse to provide any counter argument to my own counter argument and just repeat yourself over and over again without anything to back what you're saying.

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