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An Attempt At: Making Every Summoner Spell Viable.

Warlord Rhinark··27 votes·11,508 views

Hey fellas dipshit here, starting up something new I like to call "An Attempt At" (or just AAA/triple A for short), where I give my own thoughts on balance decisions that I think would benefit the game.

Today I want to talk about Summoner Spells and how they could be changed in order to make them all viable.

Keep in mind that these are just my own opinions. Feel free to disagree down below.

#summoner 21 Barrier Changes:

Shield amount increased to 125 - 500 (based on level) from 115 - 455 (based on level).

Context: It should not be a surprise that damage is at an all time high. Increasing the amount of punishment Barrier can take might warrant taking it over Ignite.

#summoner 1 Cleanse Changes:

REMOVED: Reducing incoming disables by 65% for 3 seconds.

NEW: Now grants CC immunity for 2.5 seconds.

Cooldown reduced to 150 seconds from 210 seconds.

Reduction of incoming disables increased to 75% from 65%.

NEW: Now Cleanses Suppression.

Context: According to https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/spells , Cleanse + Flash is the third least picked combination of Summoner Spells, as well as the one with the absolute lowest win rate out of them all, with people losing more games when they pick it, rather than win them. 65% reduction in incoming disables does not do you much good if you're getting chain CC'd, but 75% might help. The cooldown has also been reduced a bit to make it come up more often.

#summoner 3 Exhaust Changes:

Slow amount decreased to 25% from 30%.

Damage reduction increased to 50% from 40%.

Context: Exhaust is meant to shutdown a high damage dealer on the enemy team, yet it is more often used to simply slow someone down. This change should turn this around.

#summoner 4 Flash Changes:

Quality of Life Change: Smart Cast can now be turned off in the settings.

Context: I do not know if this has happened to any of you, but I have occasionally on accident blown my Flash because of fat fingering the F key (F is for Flash you darn goons). This change should reduce the chances of this happening, as well as still allowing players to keep it on Smart Cast if they want to.

#summoner 6 Ghost Changes:

Maximum movement speed changed to 25 - 50% (based on level) from 28 - 45% (based on level).

REMOVED: Needing to accelerate for the first 2 seconds of the duration in order to reach maximum movement speed.

Context: For a Summoner Spell that is supposed to make you go fast, it feels a bit sluggish to use with the need to accelerate first beforehand. This change should make it feel more satisfying to use, as well as making it able to compete with Flash.

#summoner 7 Heal Changes:

Maximum healing changed to 100 - 300 (based on level) from 90 - 345 (based on level).

Maximum healing increased to 100 - 350 (based on level) from 90 - 345 (based on level).

Movement speed decreased to 25% from 30%.

Range decreased to 750 from 850.

Context: Heal is sometimes taken simply for the movement speed it gives. I want to enforce Ghost being the Summoner Spell for going fast by reducing Heal's movement speed by a bit. I also want to reduce it's range a bit. Saving an ally with Heal is great, but you shouldn't do it from a mile away. Total healing has been increased to compensate.

Quality of Life change: Smart cast can be turned off in the settings.

Context: See above example in Flash Changes.

#summoner 14 Ignite Changes:

Total damage decreased to 50 - 500 (based on level) from 80 - 505 (based on level).

Now reduces all healing by 50% from 40%.

Now grants True Sight of the target.

Context: Ignite is supposed to be a Summoner Spell that secures kills, not gives them to you for free. This change should enforce that.

#summoner 11 Smite Changes:

Healing when used on a large monster decreased to 50 (+ 10% Maximum Health) from 70 (+ 10% Maximum Health).

Damage increased to 400 - 1000 (based on level) from 390 - 1000 (based on level).

Cooldown reduced to 10 seconds from 15 seconds. Recharge time unchanged.

Context: Smite gives a bit too much sustain in the Jungle on it's own. If the Jungler wants sustain, they should build a Hunter's Potion. Damage on Smite has been increased by 10 and the cooldown has been reduced by 5 seconds to compensate.

#summoner 11 Challenging Smite changes:

Challenging Smite damage reduction increased to 25% from 20%.

Challenging Smite duration increased to 5 seconds from 4 seconds.

Challenging Smite now grants True Sight of the target.

Challenging Smite damage over time decreased to 50 - 150 (based on level) from 60 - 162 (based on level).

Context: Currently, Challenging Smite is taken simply for the damage it deals. I want to enforce Challenging Smite as a viable choice for Duelists, but cut down a bit on the damage it deals. Duelling doesn't only have to be about dealing more damage than your opponent.

#summoner 11 Chilling Smite Changes:

Movement speed steal increased to 25% from 20%.

Chilling Smite damage decreased to 25 - 150 (based on level) from 28 - 166 (based on level).

Context: Chilling Smite, although meant to be used to chase down a fleeing target, is usually only used to finish someone off. This change should enforce it's original purpose, and keep Ignite as the dominant damage-oriented Summoner Spell.

#summoner 12 Teleport Changes:

Cooldown reduced to 300 seconds from 360 seconds.

Channel time increased to 5 seconds from 4 seconds.

NEW: Teleport can now be canceled again.

Context: This is just a simple revert to the nerf that Teleport received a few patches ago. I feel the change was unnecessary and only served to make Ignite and even more mandatory pick than it already was. This change should bring back Teleport as a viable option. However, channel time has been increased by 0.5 seconds so hopefully it won't go back to being mandatory either.

Overall, that's my opinion on changes I'd like to see to Summoner Spells.

Like I said above, feel free to disagree down below.

I'll even leave a poll if you don't bother typing a reply.

Thanks for reading.

#EDIT: Added Teleport changes because I apparently forgot it existed for a second.

#EDIT 2: Removed Cleanse giving CC immunity, gave the total Healing on Heal a little buff and removed the damage reduction buff on Challenging Smite.

#EDIT 3: Revisited this post and cleaned it up a bit.

104 Comments

Kai Guy18 votes

I only agree with a minority but I have to say I enjoy seeing folks who take time to think about a post and look for solutions rather then flood the boards with QQ threads. I hope you keep it up. Take my upvote and have a good day. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

flibitydoo7 votes

The cc immunity on cleanse seems problematic with champions who are balanced around cc countered IE fiddlesticks, Katarina, Yi, Nasus, etc. and the only case afaik it improves on champs that normally run (or have the option to run) cleanse are in situations where you're fighting someone with a continuous cc effect like cass's slow or Orianna's slow or Lux's slow or Soraka's silence.

Also according to your OP you said this was based on pickrate/winrate. But that's not the whole story with cleanse. If a champion that has zero cc (or negligible cc like slows as is the case with Rumble or cases where the champion only has non-cleansable cc like lee sin) is played, then you feel less inclined to pick this summoner spell. Kai'sa and Zed for example have no (cleanse worthy) cc so in games where they are played there's less of a reason to run cleanse compared to if there was a Brand or Morgana

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

The cc immunity on cleanse seems problematic with champions who are balanced around cc countered IE fiddlesticks, Katarina, Yi, Nasus, etc. and the only case afaik it improves on champs that normally run (or have the option to run) cleanse are in situations where you're fighting someone with a continuous cc effect like cass's slow or Orianna's slow or Lux's slow or Soraka's silence.

You'd think some of these champions would pick up Cleanse if they are as CC countered as you're claiming they are, right?

65% reduced duration for incoming disables sounds pretty good, yet none of them pick it up?

It clearly shows that to make it viable, it shouldn't just reduce the duration of disables, it should negate disables altogether.

And the duration has been decreased to 2.5 seconds so hopefully it doesn't get that much out of hand.

The Fiddlesticks/Katarina would lose out on kill potential if they gave up Ignite for it.

Yi would lose Jungle Clear if he didn't take Smite, or he would lose out on mobility if he didn't take Flash.

And Nasus would lose map pressure if he doesn't pick up Teleport.

They sacrifice something for something else.

Also according to your OP you said this was based on pickrate/winrate. But that's not the whole story with cleanse. If a champion that has zero cc (or negligible cc like slows as is the case with Rumble or cases where the champion only has non-cleansable cc like lee sin) is played, then you feel less inclined to pick this summoner spell. Kai'sa and Zed for example have no cc so in games where they are played there's less of a reason to run cleanse compared to if there was a Brand or Morgana

Pick rate is understandable, but I wanted to focus the most on the win rate.

EVEN IN games where it was picked, people still lost more games than they would've if they just chose something else.

It has the absolute least win rate out of all of the other Summoner Spell combinations.

floo2 votes

Yi wouldn't need flash if he is free to mow the enemy team down while being immune to cc for 2.5s. If you give him this, late game Yi has literally no counterplay. Not even that 'just cc him' excuse.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Yi wouldn't need flash if he is free to mow the enemy team down while being immune to cc for 2.5s. If you give him this, late game Yi has literally no counterplay. Not even that 'just cc him' excuse.

Yet almost every Yi still takes Flash over Cleanse.

You'd think someone who's biggest counter is CC would want something that gives him a free Cleanse and 65% reduced duration for incoming disables, right?

Yet he doesn't.

Yi is an entirely different problem but this post was primarily oriented towards Summoner Spells so I tried to stay on topic.

floo1 votes

No doubt, this is just a single champion who's the problem. But there a difference between being able to move and attack freely and still being locked down shortly, even if it's reduced by 65%. If these were the changes to go with, Yi's ult should be looked at.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

No doubt, this is just a single champion who's the problem. But there a difference between being able to move and attack freely and still being locked down shortly, even if it's reduced by 65%. If these were the changes to go with, Yi's ult should be looked at.

Yi should be looked at regardless in my opinion.

Skimming through it, I came up with some potential nerfs:

Cooldown increased to 100 seconds from 85 seconds.

Duration decreased to 5 seconds from 7 seconds.

Bonus Attack Speed decreased to 25 - 50 - 75% from 30 - 55 - 80%.

Takedown cooldown reduction on basic abilities decreased to 50% from 70%.

No longer grants immunity to slows and cripples.

Takedown extended duration decreased to 5 seconds from 7 seconds.

His bonus movement speed can be increased to 30 - 40 - 50% from it's current 25 - 35 - 45% if he ends up becoming too weak.

crippler381 votes

I just want to point out that the CC immunity plus Ghost would basically give everyone Olaf Ult without the AD.

Mainly because knockups are affected now, and you aren't even slightly staggered anymore.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

I just want to point out that the CC immunity plus Ghost would basically give everyone Olaf Ult without the AD.

Mainly because knockups are affected now, and you aren't even slightly staggered anymore.

You've pointed it out, but is it something you're against?

crippler381 votes

To put into perspective, it'd make every Juggernaut practically impossible to kite for one, which means they'd crush things.

Personally I like summoners as is, I just wanted to make sure that it was known (but then I saw everyone else pointing it out) that giving everyone an Olaf ultimate means that characters balanced around kiting (Juggernauts) and characters balanced around hard CC killing them (Yi, Yasuo) would be able to completely maul your team unless you had the mobility to run away.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

To put into perspective, it'd make every Juggernaut practically impossible to kite for one, which means they'd crush things.

Personally I like summoners as is, I just wanted to make sure that it was known (but then I saw everyone else pointing it out) that giving everyone an Olaf ultimate means that characters balanced around kiting (Juggernauts) and characters balanced around hard CC killing them (Yi, Yasuo) would be able to completely maul your team unless you had the mobility to run away.

Yet, despite being characters that are only countered by CC, none of them actually pick up Cleanse at all.

crippler381 votes

That's because no matter what Cleanse isn't that helpful in the early game during lane phase. That combined with how many knockups there are means that it's only really used against specific characters.

However with this change, then characters like Darius would take it over Ghost as a way to stick to people, then the game turns into 'if you don't have enough mobility to kite Darius you die' rather than 'if your team can keep Darius controlled you live'.

Going off of the Yi example, it'd mean Yi would probably take it over flash since he is aiming for the late game anyway.

Garen with this would be able to combine it with his W to have massive tenacity for a bit combined with CC immunity while just running straight at whoever he wants to murder (and good luck getting away from that thing).

Basically, removing the knock ups and mini stuns from stopping Juggernauts, is completely against their design and would require a lot of tweaks to make anything but oppressive.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

That's because no matter what Cleanse isn't that helpful in the early game during lane phase. That combined with how many knockups there are means that it's only really used against specific characters.

However with this change, then characters like Darius would take it over Ghost as a way to stick to people, then the game turns into 'if you don't have enough mobility to kite Darius you die' rather than 'if your team can keep Darius controlled you live'.

Going off of the Yi example, it'd mean Yi would probably take it over flash since he is aiming for the late game anyway.

Garen with this would be able to combine it with his W to have massive tenacity for a bit combined with CC immunity while just running straight at whoever he wants to murder (and good luck getting away from that thing).

Basically, removing the knock ups and mini stuns from stopping Juggernauts, is completely against their design and would require a lot of tweaks to make anything but oppressive.

You make decent points, I just have no idea what to do with Cleanse at this point, then.

It's either complete garbage or broken.

I haven't been able to find a middleground.

What do you think could be done to Cleanse?

crippler381 votes

Lower the cooldown and remove the tenacity bonus?

Perhaps letting the spell instantly ground you from knockups too?

That way it maintains what it does now, lets you turn off deadly CC, but doesn't help you stick too much? Basically making it a QSS you can't use on Suppression.

It's usable as is, even though it is niche.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Lower the cooldown and remove the tenacity bonus?

Lower the cooldown I can get behind, but why remove the Tenacity bonus?

Perhaps letting the spell instantly ground you from knockups too?

Might as well just make it able to Cleanse every displacement at that point.

That way it maintains what it does now, lets you turn off deadly CC, but doesn't help you stick too much? Basically making it a QSS you can't use on Suppression.

Sounds simple enough. I'll add it to the post.

It's usable as is, even though it is niche.

If you consider the third lowest pick rate and the absolute lowest win rate out of all of the other Summoner Spells as "usable as is", sure.

crippler381 votes

I said lowering the tenacity bonus because the goal is to not give an always up 90% tenacity for every fight off of Merc treads and Cleanse effectively.

I forgot there were other forms of displacement than knock ups so yes those would be included.

Yes I do consider it usable since it's saved my bacon a few times, even though it by design can't help me snowball like the others do.

Maybe make it literally a spell shield that you can activate, similar to Sivir or Nocturn? Only unlike them you wouldn't get any bonus from it, just blocking a spell. Which could be extremely useful.

Or even replace the tenacity with a spell shield that lasts like, 1-2 seconds to help prevent the next follow up CC with good timing.

Although that combined with Banshee's Veil or QSS might be too much nope, maybe.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

I said lowering the tenacity bonus because the goal is to not give an always up 90% tenacity for every fight off of Merc treads and Cleanse effectively.

It sounds extremely good on paper, but you have to wonder why nobody actually does this currently on live servers, right?

I forgot there were other forms of displacement than knock ups so yes those would be included.

It seems like it kinda ruins the purpose of displacements being "CC unaffected by Tenacity".

Sure, it isn't Tenacity but it's a Cleanse which is basically just 100% Tenacity for one spell.

Yes I do consider it usable since it's saved my bacon a few times, even though it by design can't help me snowball like the others do.

I mean, fair enough. Good for you that you can use it.

But there has to be some underlying reason as to why people not only do not pick it, but also lose more games when they pick it than they would've if they just picked something else.

Maybe make it literally a spell shield that you can activate, similar to Sivir or Nocturn? Only unlike them you wouldn't get any bonus from it, just blocking a spell. Which could be extremely useful.

Then it kind of steers away from being an anti-CC tool and more towards being an anti-Mage tool.

I already tried to enforce Barrier as the dominant defensive Summoner Spell in terms of pure damage.

Or even replace the tenacity with a spell shield that lasts like, 1-2 seconds to help prevent the next follow up CC with good timing.

Although that combined with Banshee's Veil or QSS might be too much nope, maybe.

I don't know. It sounds just as OP as CC immunity.

Minimac20001 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dYpKhipE,comment-id=000400000000000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-20T19:03:41.320+0000)

You make decent points, I just have no idea what to do with Cleanse at this point, then.

It's either complete garbage or broken.

I haven't been able to find a middleground.

What do you think could be done to Cleanse?

Maybe combine it with a weakened self targeted only version of clarity? Idk just throwing something out there

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe combine it with a weakened self targeted only version of clarity? Idk just throwing something out there

You mean it giving mana?

That might make it stronger on champions that use mana as a resource than on those that do not.

The original point of this post was to make every Summoner Spell viable on all champions.

I removed the CC immunity in the post and replaced it with something else. Tell me if you like the new change.

Minimac20001 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dYpKhipE,comment-id=00040000000000000000000000010000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-10-20T20:40:01.485+0000)

You mean it giving mana?

That might make it stronger on champions that use mana as a resource than on those that do not.

The original point of this post was to make every Summoner Spell viable on all champions.

I removed the CC immunity in the post and replaced it with something else. Tell me if you like the new change.

Yeah, u was just throwing it out there as a suggestion. I like the update just giving it some more number power, seems pretty solid

Bob the Toastr6 votes

As long as there is so much true damage in the game, and so much mobility, Exhaust will never be worth taking.

You want to shut down the Yi? the Yas? The Darius? The Olaf? The Vayne? The Camille? The Garen? The anyone with ignite? Too bad

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bob the Toastr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dYpKhipE,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-10-20T04:29:49.925+0000)

As long as there is so much true damage in the game, and so much mobility, Exhaust will never be worth taking.

You want to shut down the Yi? the Yas? The Darius? The Olaf? The Vayne? The Camille? The Garen? The anyone with ignite? Too bad

True Damage is an entirely different topic I wanted to touch up on, but this post was primarily oriented towards Summoner Spells in specific, so I wanted to keep it on topic.

On the bright side, Ignite did get nerfed by 30 damage early game so hopefully that might encourage Supports to pick up Exhaust, which now cuts peoples' damage literally in half (discounting all the True Damage they might have).

sutora35 votes

bruhMasterYi summoner 1 pls no

Resolution4 votes

I just want Clarity back, I used to take it as support constantly for more lane pressure - but apparently, someone at Riot decided it wasn't good enough.

Instead of having diversity with summoners, we just have the "Forced" ignite or be at a disadvantage. I'm all up for ignite nerfs though :).

ankoanko194 votes

the cleanse change is horrible. I still have Rengar W 2s CC immunity flashbacks.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

the cleanse change is horrible. I still have Rengar W 2s CC immunity flashbacks.

Feel free to share your proposed change.

ankoanko192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dYpKhipE,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2018-10-20T11:03:07.101+0000)

Feel free to share your proposed change.

Just keeping it the way it is? Maybe make it so it works on knockups but lower the tenacity.

Z3Sleeper3 votes

HOLY OP AS HELL CLEANSE

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

HOLY OP AS HELL CLEANSE

Would you mind elaborating?

Z3Sleeper3 votes

2.5s of CC invulnerability is absolutely monstrously strong. Cleanse is strong for the ability to remove a single defining CC like a Lissandra ult.

Being able to block not only a Liss ult, but their Sej's ult, Alistar combo and whatever else they dump on you is pretty insane.

It's basically a "hey you can't catch this guy while this is up and if you try to do it anyway to put it on cooldown you're risking being turned on since your major CC spells are down".

It's stronger than Malz's passive which is by far one of the strongest passives in the game but it's locked to an immobile mage and goes away with any damage.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

2.5s of CC invulnerability is absolutely monstrously strong. Cleanse is strong for the ability to remove a single defining CC like a Lissandra ult.

You say Cleanse is "strong enough" yet it has the third lowest pick rate and the absolute lowest win rate out of all of the other Summoner Spells.

Being able to block not only a Liss ult, but their Sej's ult, Alistar combo and whatever else they dump on you is pretty insane.

It's basically a "hey you can't catch this guy while this is up and if you try to do it anyway to put it on cooldown you're risking being turned on since your major CC spells are down".

That was kind of the point of the change.

To provide counterplay to chain-CC.

It's stronger than Malz's passive which is by far one of the strongest passives in the game but it's locked to an immobile mage and goes away with any damage.

By comparison, Olaf's ultimate is better than Malz's passive which is by far one of the strongest passives in the game.

If you're so vehemently against this change, then what do you suggest be done to Cleanse to make it more viable?

Z3Sleeper2 votes

Because it's a niche summoner spell. It requires a type of enemy CC that warrants taking it. Thus, it's really only taken in those games and not just whenever you wanna take it.

That's why it has the lowest pick rate.

It's definitely not because it's weak. I don't think a single change needs to be made to cleanse.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Because it's a niche summoner spell. It requires a type of enemy CC that warrants taking it. Thus, it's really only taken in those games and not just whenever you wanna take it.

That's why it has the lowest pick rate.

It's definitely not because it's weak. I don't think a single change needs to be made to cleanse.

You've only justified the low pick rate, yet conveniently leaves out the low win rate.

Even in games where it's picked, people are losing more games than if they just picked something else.

That should be a factor of how weak it is.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

Depends who you're looking at.

Cassiopeia has a 54% winrate with Cleanse. Leblanc has a 53% winrate with Cleanse. Kassadin 52% Syndra 51% ASol 59%

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Depends who you're looking at.

Cassiopeia has a 54% winrate with Cleanse. Leblance has a 53% winrate with Cleanse.

  1. I'd like a source.

  2. The goal is for the Summoner Spells to be viable on all champions, not just 2 out of the 140.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

Buffing it for everyone else means overbuffing it for the intended users.

Overbuffing it for intended users means nerfs to those users.

Nerfs to those users means they now have to solely rely on Cleanse.

  1. League of Graphs & OP.GG

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/spells/cassiopeia/diamond http://na.op.gg/champion/cassiopeia/statistics/mid

Not all summoners are shown on OP.GG, just the most picked.

Killer of Night92 votes

I just wanted to say my opinion about that summon change. I like your work but what do you think about : If u are going to nerf heal, adc would probably take again teleport (since you made a revert) or barrier most because it's overbuffed. I think that noone would pick heal after that nerf and since the "ignite" change, must because an increase of 10% of reduced heal wouldn't make heal any useful (since ignite is also take by support and not only by laner). I like your smite change but it's probably doing not that much for item 2032. A lot of hp regen or hp recover come from jungler base item and from red buff too. But if it would do, i would expect a high play of sustained camp such as Warwick XinZhao Udyr Graves turning the meta in the "scuttle change" fighter domination again killing even more bad sustained early game champ. Ghost and exhaust fell ok, i would see more exhaust instead of ignite on bot lane. Maybe ghost could take a "melee" iteraction such as "30%-50%" instead of "28%-45% for ranged". Some dubt on clean: it would work only on normal cc (like tenacity affect cc) or displacement too (since cleans active alredy affect that) or even suppression (that it wouldn't?).

LordForrest2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dYpKhipE,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-10-19T19:30:01.630+0000)

#summoner 6 Ghost Changes:

Maximum movement speed changed to 25 - 50% (based on level) from 28 - 45% (based on level).

REMOVED: Needing to accelerate for the first 2 seconds of the duration in order to reach maximum movement speed.

Context: For a Summoner Spell that is supposed to make you go fast, it feels a bit sluggish to use with the need to accelerate first beforehand. This change should make it feel more satisfying to use, as well as making it able to compete with Flash.

When your change to ghost is literally removing a nerf that Riot added because they felt ghost was too strong and then making it stronger late game. 10/10 I would ship it.

No, seriously I am down with that.

Also I think Ignite should move from easy damage to a utility spell. Basically it keeps the grievous wounds and true sight, but instead of true damage burn they get a damage amplification debuff. Either they take more damage from the caster or its a global effect. I was thinking maybe something like 10%. Could be too much, could be too little. Just spitballing really.

That way it could make it less of a braindead option. Because they need to use it first and actually land their skills to really benefit from it, instead of just slapping it on and letting the burn kill people.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

When your change to ghost is literally removing a nerf that Riot added because they felt ghost was too strong and then making it stronger late game. 10/10 I would ship it.

No, seriously I am down with that.

Yeah Ghost is kind of in the shitter.

I want it to be able to compete with Flash.

I want it to be more useful than Flash in some cases, and Flash be more useful than Ghost in other cases.

Also I think Ignite should move from easy damage to a utility spell. Basically it keeps the grievous wounds and true sight, but instead of true damage burn they get a damage amplification debuff. Either they take more damage from the caster or its a global effect. I was thinking maybe something like 10%. Could be too much, could be too little. Just spitballing really.

That way it could make it less of a braindead option. Because they need to use it first and actually land their skills to really benefit from it, instead of just slapping it on and letting the burn kill people.

I thought about it, but Ignite has, since it's first iteration, been a Summoner Spell meant for securing kills.

If we made it damage amplification, then it would steer away from it's originally intended purpose.

Besides, this will only make the burst of Assassins even stronger.

Plus, we already have tons of True Damage conversion now with Conqueror and Infinity Edge.

LordForrest1 votes

True, I just feel that ignite is braindead. Am I going in? Slap them with ignite and whiff a spell or two and still get the kill.

I want the uses for ignite to be more compelling then just additional damage that can make up for you fucking up.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

True, I just feel that ignite is braindead. Am I going in? Slap them with ignite and whiff a spell or two and still get the kill.

Isn't this exactly what the damage amplification you're proposing would do?

I want the uses for ignite to be more compelling then just additional damage that can make up for you fucking up.

Then I'm guessing you only want it removed from the game because Ignite has always been an offensive Summoner Spell oriented towards "more damage".

Šhαco2 votes

I personally find the cleanse one a bit overdone, outside the chain cc situation, people can now just cleanse and force u to not use ur cc on them instead of having to time it correctly, i also believe the changes to barrier and heal are unnecessary as long as ignite gets nerfed, and we dont exactly need more true sight in the game as u seem to be giving it to everything

Cheini2 votes

hey mate, am this is a troll post right? Trundle

for the "silly" category?.. Because... just.. i see rito hiring you REAL soon!

complete cc immunity.. ooOOOooh dear. And all the strategic plays you take off the rest. You do have few good points but pls.

Disabled Support1 votes

The reason why ghost was changed was because too many people were using it as a way to run away instead of engage (and also f*ck Ryze summoner 4 {{summoner:51}} apparently)

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

The reason why ghost was changed was because too many people were using it as a way to run away instead of engage

(and also f*ck Ryze summoner 4 {{summoner:51}} apparently)

Which it can also be used for?

Who says it has to be an engage tool?

LordForrest1 votes

Yeah, but Riot decided that using it as an escape was not what they wanted. They wanted engages, not non-flashy escapes, hence adding a ramp up effect to it. Because ghost and flash was too defensive in nature and killed the BIG PLAYS.

Utter bullshit.

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, but Riot decided that using it as an escape was not what they wanted. They wanted engages, not non-flashy escapes, hence adding a ramp up effect to it. Because ghost and flash was too defensive in nature and killed the BIG PLAYS.

Utter bullshit.

The ramp up on Ghost hurts it's engage just as much as it hurts it's disengage in my opinion.

LordForrest1 votes

I absolutely agree, but Riot's thought process is that if you are engaging (usually during a gank, or flanking specifically) you pop it before you go in.

That doesn't help people like Olaf who likes to pop it with his ult to run down the carry, or anybody who needs that speed now.

Disabled Support1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dYpKhipE,comment-id=00170000,timestamp=2018-10-21T06:36:42.769+0000)

Which it can also be used for?

Who says it has to be an engage tool?

Sorry, I didn't mean engage tool but riot said it was too good at escaping sticky situations :

Right now, players are using Ghost in much the same way as Flash: a snap reaction spell in sticky situations. We think Ghost has its place in avoiding incoming ganks, but shouldn’t be so effective at escaping ganks that are already in-progress. The problem stems from Ghost giving all of its speed upfront, padding the punishment for slow response time. NEW0-60 IN TWO SECONDS Ghost’s movement speed now ramps up over the first two seconds, rather than activating instantly (https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-72-notes)

It is also listed as an offensive spell on the LoL website, so maybe keeping it the same speed but a little extra towards enemies like a mini phantom dancer, but quite honestly that is a recipe for disaster.

I'm not quite sure what to do without ruining the identity of the summoner and being broken as hell.. I would say give it more MS in the river but river walking exists.

I don't know how to make ghost viable without making it stupid broken (ex; more damage to enemies with lower ms than you Hecarim Janna ) or running thru walls (Kayn Bard Talon Annie Taliyah maybe)

However your other ideas are nice, I kinda just want ignite to be more fair but I appreciate the care and effort to make everything more viable without bringing another summoner down

Edit: weird idea but what if your speed ramps up faster the more (preferably enemy) units you run through, so instead of talking say 5 seconds to ramp up, if you ran through 7 minions it would be 3 seconds to ramp up or something

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

but shouldn’t be so effective at escaping ganks that are already in-progress.

It's funny how this line applies so well to Flash, yet Riot refuses to touch it in the slightest.

Instead, Ghost has to suffer for whatever reason.

It is also listed as an offensive spell on the LoL website, so maybe keeping it the same speed but a little extra towards enemies like a mini phantom dancer, but quite honestly that is a recipe for disaster.

I don't know, that solidifies it as an engage over disengage tool, which I'm against, and it will make it even more difficult to kite things like Juggernauts and Fighters.

I'm not quite sure what to do without ruining the identity of the summoner and being broken as hell.. I would say give it more MS in the river but river walking exists.

It also sounds a bit useless considering you also get a movement speed buff in the form of Scuttle Crab Shrine.

I don't know how to make ghost viable without making it stupid broken (ex; more damage to enemies with lower ms than you Hecarim Janna ) or running thru walls (Kayn Bard Talon Annie Taliyah maybe)

More damage is definitely not what the game needs right now.

However your other ideas are nice, I kinda just want ignite to be more fair but I appreciate the care and effort to make everything more viable without bringing another summoner down

How is Ignite not fair?

A whopping 30 damage has been removed from it, since that is the main issue Ignite currently brings on the live servers.

Making it more utility oriented by increasing Grievous Wounds healing reduction and giving it True Sight makes it more than just a "use this to kill people".

Edit: weird idea but what if your speed ramps up faster the more (preferably enemy) units you run through, so instead of talking say 5 seconds to ramp up, if you ran through 7 minions it would be 3 seconds to ramp up or something

Although a cool concept, I feel it would leave Ghost even weaker than it already is.

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