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Riot's treatment of Malzahar is ruining the game for me

warpenguin555··103 votes·5,048 views

Nobody from Riot will talk about Malzahar. The balance team keeps throwing nerfs at his support disregarding how it will effect his midlane. All the feedback from both myself and all the others who played him pre rework is ignored. When I play him I can't even relax or have fun anymore when i play him because i get too pissed off and depressed about this whole thing. I have other champions I can play. Bard, Taliyah, Swain, Illaoi, Nocturne, but none of them will ever be what Malzahar was for me a year ago. And why bother getting invested in another champion when Riot can just come along and do the same thing again? Because of how new champions are being designed, there will never be another Malzahar. It doesnt matter how many times we say the rework failed, it should be reverted, it feels like shit to play etc because Riot doesn't care. They don't read threads about Malzahar, they don't read tweets about him or questions on Ask Riot about him. And they probably never will

139 Comments

Rengooo36 votes

Riots treatment of failed reworks in general is ruining the game.

They seem to have some sort of "rework and forget" policy.

Its fucking abysmal.

SociopathFriend5 votes

Because constantly going backwards whenever the fanbase gets upset isn't the right move. Adapting and moving on from what you changed is. The worst thing Riot ever did is revert Kog'Maw, because now every given rework that anyone ever complains about is going to have people asking to put the champion back to how they used to be.

Kog was reverted because the little guy basically warped the entire game around him. No other rework has come close to that. Riot will rework Malz again, hopefully with changes to his voidlings, and they'll presumably try to make Malz less disgusting.

Old Malz wasn't healthier, going back isn't the solution. Just because he wasn't used often and didn't have a high winrate doesn't mean he had healthy gameplay. I used to main Malz and I will admit that.

Placentas1 votes

I honestly must have skipped out on this kog'maw phase, I vaguely remember it. Why was it so bad? How was he so OP?

Anu3isII2 votes

There is a strategy called "Juggermaw", also known as "protect the Kog'maw". This startegy required your whole team to pick champions to protect Kog, transforming him into a Ranged Juggernaut. Lulu top, Orianna Mid, Janna support and Gragas jungle as an example of a Juggermaw Team Comp.

This strategy has existed before his rework, showing how powerful one champion can be with a Team built around him.

Kog'Maw's Rework has increased his Damage Extremely at the cost of needing more items to scale. This led to some extremely binary duels (and teamfights) where you had to burst him fast or die in case he got his items, or ignore him... Your whole team had to focus him or you would be melted by Runaan' plus all his on-hit effects at 5 attacks per second in late-game.

Reworked Kog could kill entire teams by standing still and AA-ing anyone who came to him. All he needed were items. In combination with the "Juggermaw" comp, he was both the bait and the killer. And the bait also survived...

The main thing that you have to understand is that Reworked Kog was a feast or famine kind of champion, that was reliable only in a "Juggermaw" comp. People hate to rely on their team, people hate Hyperscaling champions, and, most importantly, people hate stat-checks. Reworked Kog had all of these problems.

Ultîma3 votes

Are you joking?

Old Malzahar had a very telegraphed lane pushing pattern of "bouncing" his visions around to farm and harass enemies. His kill combo involved getting W-E-R-Passive Minion on a target which required some execution-related skills as it wasn't the easiest thing to do on an opponent aware of the threat. There was a very precise window of opportunity where Malzahar could align all these elements together to make something happen.

New Malzahar combines the worst mechanics of old Yorick (spammable minions that deal way too much damage if ignored, feel very uninteractive by the Malzahar player or his opponent) and tacked on one of the most unbalanced passives in the game. Honestly, that passive would be broken on almost any champion - that's how stupid it is - and those elements sapped so much power budget out of Malzahar's kit that any skill expression in his old iteration is basically gone.

Malzahar was undeniably healthier in his old iteration and far more fun to play. I refuse to believe a full revert isn't a possibility in his case as his new kit is frankly embarrassing.

Voluug135 votes

Because constantly going backwards whenever the fanbase gets upset isn't the right move

Yes, because rework malz clearly had no negative effects on the game other that ''some salty players''. Also, Lee Sin rework anyone? That was literally a ''going backwards whenever the fanbase gets upset'' situation.

Old Malz wasn't healthier

Objetively a lie, fueled by Riot intentionally bandwagoning misconceptions about a niche champion to excuse a shitty rework. Oh, and assassin main tears.

going back isn't the solution

Considering that rework Malz managed achieve in 1 year what old Malz never even managed to dream to do (to be a tumorous mass in the game that warped entire lanes/roles), yes, I can say that for now the most reacheable solution is a full revert because they arent going to touch Malz except to nerf him for at least 2-3 years. He isnt a Riot founder's champion, he will be given the Eve treatment.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

{quoted}

Yes, because rework malz clearly had no negative effects on the game other that ''some salty players''. Also, Lee Sin rework anyone? That was literally a ''going backwards whenever the fanbase gets upset'' situation.

Objetively a lie, fueled by Riot intentionally bandwagoning misconceptions about a niche champion to excuse a shitty rework. Oh, and assassin main tears.

Considering that rework Malz managed achieve in 1 year what old Malz never even managed to dream to do (to be a tumorous mass in the game that warped entire lanes/roles), yes, I can say that for now the most reacheable solution is a full revert because they arent going to touch Malz except to nerf him for at least 2-3 years. He isnt a Riot founder's champion, he will be given the Eve treatment.

to be honest old malzahar was much eaiser to deal with for assassins. immediately after rework his passive made him so fucking hard to kill until they nerfed it.

darknuke6 votes

[deleted]

SweedishGunner7 votes

It's their job and they certainly have the income to do it.

darknuke2 votes

[deleted]

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

https://dotesports.com/league-of-legends/league-of-legends-2015-revenue-2839

Riot games made 1.6 Billion dollars last year.

https://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=137603

^ To give you some perspective on how we could spend small fractions of that money, but if you don't find those compelling,

EDIT: the link below that looks broken works, it is to a report titled "INFECTIOUS DISEASES Analysis of Eradication or Elimination Estimates"

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/GAOREPORTS-T-NSIAD-98-183/pdf/GAOREPORTS-T-NSIAD-98-183.pdf

We could literally eradicate polio completely from the entire planet with 1.6 Billion USD saving 304 million USD annually in polio prevention, paying for itself in just over 5 years.

Balancing 136 champions in a video game is trivial in comparison.

Leetri3 votes

That's their revenue, but what is their actual profit? Riot has a ton of employees, contractors and other things eating money. From what I can find they had over 1000 employees in 2013, and then add server costs, merchandise costs, tournaments, and a lot more that I probably don't know of and you'll realize they didn't actually gain 1.6 billion dollars.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

Of course i'm not saying they spend 1.6 billion on only balancing champions, but we aren't talking about rocket science here, and the cost to actually balance the game is a drop in the bucket compared to server costs. Although now that i look it up spaceX costs to launch into low earth orbit are around 56.5 Million, So if they wanted to Riot could launch an astronautilus figure into space without making a dent in their budget. They already have one on the coral reef why not space?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_launch_market_competition

LankPants5 votes

Step 1: If a rework fails and makes the champion worse than before do a full revert, no questions asked.

With that change alone you drastically improve several champs now and lay the groundwork to not fuck champions up in the future.

Partholonian3 votes

First of all, no, the correct answer is rework them again. They were broken before, that's why you reworked them, so going back to that would be bad.

Second, has that ever actually happened? Even Morde, as much as there is to complain about him, is better than he was. Skarner's "failed" in the sense of going from basically nobody playing him to... basically nobody playing him, but I don't know if you can say it actually made him worse.

The full reworks like Sion, Yorick and Poppy have all been huge improvements. (Admittedly they were starting from the worst champions in the game, because those are the ones Riot targeted for full reworks.)

Rengooo3 votes

Never said balancing all the champs was easy, I would expect them to screw up from time to time. What isn't ok is screwing up, then ignoring it like it isn't a problem.

PeepingPeafowl18 votes

{quoted}

Nobody from Riot will talk about Malzahar. The balance team keeps throwing nerfs at his support disregarding how it will effect his midlane.

The lack of compensation buffs to his midlane after nerfing his support is pretty lame, and no discussion about the direction for the champ after they had admitted that they have a problem with allowing champions to only work at pro play and having to be nerfed below that is disappointing.

It seems like Malzahar is falling victim to the same things that got Azir Ryze Kalista Shen RekSai so badly nerfed for non professional play.

Luxs Destiny2 votes

I miss being able to play Rek'Sai, Azir in casual play. I miss their basic ideas and kits. Rek'Sai release was so fun, she was such a badass. Azir felt like a king.

SweedishGunner2 votes

When Rek'Sai first released I built Trinity and ADC items on her and played her as a subterranean Kha'Zix.

Karfuss12 votes

Riot's rework ethos as a whole, is ruining the game.

A rework should not be a new champion underneath a shell of an old one. A rework, should be making their preexisting abilities more interactive, responsive and fun to use and keeping their core design.

BoilTheOil7 votes

just like Warwick

Casri9 votes

Zyra went through the exact same thing back in 2013. Created as a mid-laner, popularized as a support, slammed with repeated nerfs due to support, pathetic compensation buff for mid (0.05 ratio increase on Q) mostly ignored by Riot until 2016 MYMU.

Then reworked Zyra was nerfed and she's back in relatively the same situation and she is universally considered a support, not a mid-lane mage.

I honestly don't see why it's so hard to just nerf base damage and increase ratios. They did it with Annie when she was being picked throughout Season 4 as support, and it worked, she's rarely ever picked as support anymore and she's a fine pick for mid-lane.

Dataless6 votes

I feel for you Malzahar players, I really do. While I enjoyed his Support gameplay well-enough (being a support main and old school Zyra support player), I'm NOT okay with his entire dedicated pre-rework playerbase feeling alienated. The radio silence from Rito is painful as well, but sadly something that I have come to expect from them. It's unfortunate that they make so many empty promises, maintain constant radio silence instead of saying, "We don't know/we fucked up" and are generally incredibly insular and non-communicative.

Riot refuses to listen, refuses to learn, and insists on pretending that they are still a "scrappy upstart company innovating the MOBA genre"

Scary Door5 votes

Mordekeiser, Kalista, Ryze and Azir players can sympathize with this thread.

CannabisOverlord2 votes

Hey now My Man Morde is in a weird as fuck and totally bleh place, but he shits on people like an Avalanche

Lintu Puck5 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_mxMAYXYmA&t=470s

And yet guys like Disco here can still enjoy it.

Malz isn't bad, you just probably can't get used to the reworked version even after all this time.

deadlychuck14 votes

OMG someone can enjoy two totally different champions? [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Yeah, that's great. Some people like both.

How good malz is, or how well someone can play him, has virtually nothing to do with the demands for the revert. It's that the rework is fundamentally a different champion. Some people don't appreciate what's effectively being told that they enjoyed the "wrong" elements of the champion. They basically just removed AD malzahar, while putting all of malzahar's burst onto the most inconsistent and player disconnected ability they've ever implemented. All the while pigeonholing players into a cast pattern of his other abilities by forcing their power into the kit's internal interactions.

P.s. that video is completely pointless. He might like the champion, but what ever you might be trying to get across by linking it is clearly not evident.

In fact, having gone through and watch the rest of the video, he seems to think that malzahar is literally a zero skill champion and functions almost independently of the malzahar player's skill. "Now if you want to climb and you are like 'I can't play all the meta champions' and you're like 'how do i get out of silver? how do i get out of gold?', i'm telling you malzahar is the easiest shit on the planet."

Penta Ace5 votes

100% agree. They forced him into being a pet summoning mage which really wasn't his identity to begin with.

Penta Ace5 votes

To be honest i wouldn't mind if they reverted the mage rework changes on him, and that's coming from someone who HATED going up against old malz Malzahar in the mid lane.

While we are at it, revert Zyra back as well lolZyra

morris12 votes

I don't know how much Zyra's rework affected her mid lane capabilities but I definitely don't want her old passive again.

LankPants3 votes

I'd take her old passive over the RNG bullshit she has now anyday.

deadlychuck5 votes

The zyra rework did one thing wrong. Which was remove the decision making from her plants.

The increased size of Q and the activation range of E basically just makes your plants passive/situational power. Rather than active elements which require you to pick between. Q the enemy, or double W Q for the extra ranged damage, or be greedy and try to land both?

LankPants4 votes

It did another thing very wrong too, it bound a ton of her power into RNG. The difference in power between a Zyra who randomly drops 2 seeds in a good place VS one who randomly drops one unusable seed is giant and it's not like there's any substantial difference in skill inherent in this scenario. Hell, player 2 could be far better and wold still get a worse outcome than player 1.

Zyra's passive is the worst design I have seen for any ability in League's history. It's fucking abysmal and is the core reason why a Zyra revert would be a good thing.

Crede7775 votes

Riot is sidelining the champion I think. Not that I like it or agree with it, but they've done this in the past to others they didn't like.

Lugg3 votes

He is honestly trash tier now for both mid and support. You know it's bad when his best role now is jungle.

Ez dePaz8 votes

They murdered his jungle thou....

ˉˉˉˉˉˉ6 votes

bruh his jungle is ded

rtbf2216514123 votes

{quoted}

He is honestly trash tier now for both mid and jungle. You know it's bad when his best role now is support.

Fixed.

Lugg1 votes

Support is easily his worst role now. The enemy bot lane can kill his voidling before it even hits them. The only thing he really brings bot now is to be an ult bot, that's it.

He works well in the jungle since he can tank monsters with the voidlings still and his ganks are a guaranteed kill if his ult is up.

rtbf2216514121 votes

{quoted}

Support is easily his worst role now. The enemy bot lane can kill his voidling before it even hits them. The only thing he really brings bot now is to be an ult bot, that's it.

And silence. And skill shot blocking. And item 3116. And item 3098

You are acting like he is worse than brand support. lmfao.

Lugg1 votes

He can't skill shot block anymore, they nerfed that a couple patches ago.

He is indeed worse than Brand now. And Annie, and Vel, and Veig, and pretty much any mage.

rtbf2216514121 votes

{quoted}

He can't skill shot block anymore, they nerfed that a couple patches ago.

He is indeed worse than Brand now. And Annie, and Vel, and Veig, and pretty much any mage.

What?

I just blocked a skillshot with W last week. You can't be serious.

{quoted}

His jungle is still pretty good. His voidlings still tank monsters the same as before.

You must be new here when his patch actually nerfed their HP (like/near a item 3512 minion,) and instead gave them more damage.

Lugg1 votes

They will still block skillshots IF THEY ARE ALREADY SUMMONED. I'm talking about how you were able to instantly summon them to block shots, which was the key thing to outplay people.

Their HP was nerfed for champions to kill them, they still tank jungle monsters the same as before.

As for being new here, my lifetime upvotes are literally five times yours. So come talk to me in about 5 seasons when you have reached this level.

rtbf2216514121 votes

{quoted}

They will still block skillshots IF THEY ARE ALREADY SUMMONED. I'm talking about how you were able to instantly summon them to block shots, which was the key thing to outplay people.

Which is what I did?

????

DarkHeadgear3 votes

One of the highest pick or ban champions in the LCS is being nerfed? RITO PLEASE

Meep Man8 votes

Because of his support. This guy wants to play him in Middle Lane. Read the post.

deadlychuck2 votes

I've just stopped taking the champion seriously, and i'm going to play exclusively him without leveling W, until it's reverted.

:P it's honestly more fun than dealing with the voidling mechanics, even if it's weaker.

Thresh Outta Fux3 votes

{quoted}

I've just stopped taking the champion seriously, and i'm going to play exclusively him without leveling W, until it's reverted.

:P it's honestly more fun than dealing with the voidling mechanics, even if it's weaker.

Just dont play him at all. If you keep his play rate up, they can point to statistics and claim that nothing is wrong.

deadlychuck3 votes

Naw, apparently play stats don't matter, because malzahar was apparently a serious problem in the game, despite having consistently low play stats for years.

Thresh Outta Fux7 votes

{quoted}

Naw, apparently play stats don't matter, because malzahar was apparently a serious problem in the game, despite having consistently low play stats for years.

Riot's garbage "Change for the sake of Change" mentality, i feel ya.

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