Remember when True Damage used to be a luxury damage type?

After3perma·Jan 6, 2019·100 votes·21,534 views

Ah the good old days. The great days of League, where all matches were fun, you don’t get blown up in 1 second, defensive items actually did something and True Damage was a luxury damage type.

True Damage used to be a luxury damage type because it was only available on a few champions especially on their ultimates and Olaf’s point and click mini E nuke.

Now what do we have? Most new champions and reworks have True Damage. Let’s create a keystone of the sole purpose of dealing continuous True Damage all game. Let’s change IE to deal True Damage also. Let’s allow Fiora to one shot tanks alone with ult because it deals like 80% Max HP True Damage.

True Damage needs to be stripped back. Revert IE. Remove Conqueror, I don’t care about people trying to defend this keystone.

138 Comments

ΗuaweiJan 6, 201942 votes

The thing is, you can't itemize against true damage. Nothing can mitigate it and therein lies it's core problem

After3permaJan 6, 201929 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ákali exe,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dWqegWbK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-06T08:39:33.264+0000)

The thing is, you can't itemize against true damage. Nothing can mitigate it and therein lies it's core problem

That’s the problem. Conqueror has caused this. Conqueror deals more true damage the more armor you have. You can’t even build defensive against Conqueror.

Death by GlamourJan 6, 20194 votes

Im guessing i have to play the devils advocate here.

But conqueror is a % of the damage done by your attack

Armour reduces the amount dealt so it would reduce the amount dealt by conqueror no?

RìveńJan 6, 20198 votes

If that's what it did, it'd be useless, as you'd be converting the damage to true after resistances have already been accounted for... So your 200 damage gets reduced to 100 by resistances, then 20 of that gets turned into true. In the end you'd still be dealing 100 damage.

Which is why it converts pre-mitigation damage.

Oh and also, something a lot of people seem to miss, it doesn't just convert auto attacks, it doesn't just convert physical damage. It converts ALL DAMAGE, including magical.

Janna Me FiddleJan 7, 20191 votes

It's the amount of true damage conversion plus the free scaling amount of AD that makes it stupid, it synergizes with itself and that's a sure fire sign of something being imbalanced.

rawiazam1Jan 6, 20192 votes

conqueror doesn't deal more damage the more armor you have, it deals the same amount of true damage regardless of armor

inferïor junglerJan 7, 20192 votes

{quoted}

That’s the problem. Conqueror has caused this. Conqueror deals more true damage the more armor you have. You can’t even build defensive against Conqueror.

'conqueror deals more true damage the more armor you have' what? that is the stupidest fucking thing i've ever heard on these shitty boards. why dont you post this off your main account and not your dead lvl28 account which has no games.

DuskDaUmbreonJan 6, 20197 votes

Because HP and AS slows don't exist?

ΗuaweiJan 6, 201918 votes

{quoted}

Because HP and AS slows don't exist?

What do you mean HP and AS slows dont exist exactly?

We have armor pen, health % damage, true damage from items, executes with true damage and on top of it we have true damage from a keystone.

Armour is not worth to itemize into. It's just useless. You just go for nuke and hope to nuke the enemy before you're nuked and that's how the game plays out atm

DuskDaUmbreonJan 6, 20195 votes

You can't itemize against true damage

You essentially claimed that HP and any way of reducing output (such as an AS slow) don't exist.

"You can't itemize against true damage" is a statement that inherently means "HP is not a purchasable stat".

Zero Skill TankJan 6, 20198 votes

How many HP items I can get on a tank before I start wasting gold on duplicated passive or useless stats like armor?

Answer is 1.

So yeah, you could itemize against true damage when it was a rare occurence, by focusing on HP a bit more then usual, but once true damage and all the freely available penetration become your main concern, there is no way to itemize against it.

As a tank in current meta you are wasting hundreds of gold on every single purchase you make and you can't do anything about it.

ThilmerJan 6, 20197 votes

{quoted}

So yeah, you could itemize against true damage when it was a rare occurence, by focusing on HP a bit more then usual, but once true damage and all the freely available penetration become your main concern, there is no way to itemize against it.

Rigth now you can see people with percentual HP damage, and true damage, and flat armour pen, and percentual armour pen.

How you itemize against that? The answer: you ignore defensive ítems and go full AD or full AP. And then you have a one-shooting clownfiesta. But the problem is that itemizing in other way is mathematically stupid and increases your chances of losing the game.

Funny enough, magic resistance is still very effective except that you are playing against Brand, or a fed Veigar, or another few heavy burst mages like that.

ModAcademy KaynJan 6, 20194 votes

Yeah, but nothing increases True damage either. Damage increases don't affect it, it's a flat damage.

Edit: Comment after comment about people telling me that True Damage has ratios, of course I know that. But Damage AMPS, aka Damage Increases, don't add more damage to the True Damage number. What it says it'll do, it will always do.

The thigh guyJan 6, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dWqegWbK,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2019-01-06T10:46:44.196+0000)

Yeah, but nothing increases True damage either. Damage increases don't affect it, it's a flat damage.

Press the attack increases it. Vlad ult increases it, building the corresponding stat increases it. What do you mean nothing increases it. Everything increases it. Even the enemy building more resistances increases it.

And no stacking up doesn’t work. Because then the rest of their damage gets through.

ankoanko19Jan 6, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dWqegWbK,comment-id=000000020002,timestamp=2019-01-06T12:31:03.782+0000)

Press the attack increases it. Vlad ult increases it, building the corresponding stat increases it. What do you mean nothing increases it. Everything increases it. Even the enemy building more resistances increases it.

And no stacking up doesn’t work. Because then the rest of their damage gets through.

What? Pta doesn't increase true dmg, wtf are you talking about?

''Applying 3 stacks to a target deals 40 − 180 (based on level) bonus Attack damageAbility power Adaptive damage and makes them Exposed for 6 seconds, causing them to take 8% − 12% (based on level) increased damage from all subsequent sources (except from true damage).''

Somebody Love MeJan 6, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dWqegWbK,comment-id=000000020002,timestamp=2019-01-06T12:31:03.782+0000)

Press the attack increases it. Vlad ult increases it, building the corresponding stat increases it. What do you mean nothing increases it. Everything increases it. Even the enemy building more resistances increases it.

And no stacking up doesn’t work. Because then the rest of their damage gets through.

Nothing you mentioned increases it.

Remember how PtA was bad on Vayne for the longest time? Also unmentioned but Ahri's charm amp doesn't even increase the damage of return Q simply because return Q is true damage.

SHIN0BUJan 6, 20198 votes

True dmg in an ability will have a ratio to increase, an example is Chogath ‘s ultimate you can raise the dmg through hp or ap ratios. Point being that true dmg is always increased through ratios that’s why it’s so high right now in game.

Done25Jan 7, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dWqegWbK,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2019-01-06T10:46:44.196+0000)

Yeah, but nothing increases True damage either. Damage increases don't affect it, it's a flat damage.

Edit: Comment after comment about people telling me that True Damage has ratios, of course I know that. But Damage AMPS, aka Damage Increases, don't add more damage to the True Damage number. What it says it'll do, it will always do.

The +10% damage Madness passive will amp it. (Tested with Cho'gath R.) I know Vlad's ult used to amp it, but I think they changed it because it was too strong with Ignite iirc.

ModAcademy KaynJan 7, 20191 votes

The heck is Madness? I've never heard of that one before.

Done25Jan 7, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dWqegWbK,comment-id=0000000200050000,timestamp=2019-01-07T09:24:01.534+0000)

The heck is Madness? I've never heard of that one before.

Unique – Madness: Damaging an enemy champion generates one stack every second for the next 4 seconds. Deal 2% increased damage for each stack, up to a maximum of 10%.

Haunting Guise effect.

ModAcademy KaynJan 7, 20191 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/133f94680686f5d80740c4efa1030c83.png

Riiiippppp my dude.

Done25Jan 7, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dWqegWbK,comment-id=000000020005000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-07T17:25:34.499+0000)

https://i.gyazo.com/133f94680686f5d80740c4efa1030c83.png

Riiiippppp my dude.

Damn it Riot!

HjelpJan 6, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ákali exe,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dWqegWbK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-06T08:39:33.264+0000)

The thing is, you can't itemize against true damage. Nothing can mitigate it and therein lies it's core problem

Max HP itemizes against true damage because there is nothing to itemize against.

Somebody Love MeJan 6, 20199 votes

{quoted}

Max HP itemizes against true damage because there is nothing to itemize against.

But then champs like Vayne and Fiora have true damage that also is in % hp damage and champs like Yi access that with item 3153

Pyke has it as an execute but it can execute from as high as half of a squishie's hp bar, and it resets. Cho's can do massive amounts of damage on a low cooldown later, and stoneplate exists. Urgot's is also an execute, and I'm pretty sure, like Pyke's, you can't even shield it.

Leaf on BushJan 6, 20191 votes

It was implemented to do that very thing and the champion power budget is balanced around it. Just how fucking lazy can you be? Actually try thinking before you complain.

ΗuaweiJan 6, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leaf on Bush,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dWqegWbK,comment-id=00000004,timestamp=2019-01-06T11:54:05.549+0000)

It was implemented to do that very thing and the champion power budget is balanced around it. Just how fucking lazy can you be? Actually try thinking before you complain.

It's balanced but tanks melt in 2.5 seconds no matter if their armour is 400 despite nobody building armor penetration.

How is that possible?

I got 2 shot by irelia when i had 130 armor with soraka and the usual redeption item plus tabi.

How did i get 2 shot? She wasn't even that far ahead when she did that.

Leaf on BushJan 6, 20191 votes

Try to play Irelia against anything with Grasp. Then we talk again about that.

SHIN0BUJan 6, 20195 votes

What? Irelia melts tanks like no tomorrow grasp doesn’t help vs conqueror in fact it’s probably inting nowadays to go grasp into conqueror. Grasp does percent hp dmg, ok not bad but then it gets a small amount of hp when proced, also not bad, but wait... it’s melee range so all the bruisers, especially Irelia will outrade HARD at that range. So what’s your point?

SaiannaJan 6, 20192 votes

It's not a problem, but a feature, actually. It becomes a problem when there's overabudance of it in the game.

Gramps69Jan 6, 20191 votes

When the majority of top laners I see are taking Conqueror, and even Marksmen like Draven (I've also seen Lucians, MFs, Ezreals for some reason) take Conqueror as well. I'd say that's an overabundance.

SaiannaJan 7, 20192 votes

I'm not speaking about only the conqueror, but every true damage in the game that isn't ultimate or ability with negative effects or if the ability isn't the main selling point of the kit.

Gramps69Jan 8, 20191 votes

I agree. True damage used to be restricted to Vayne, Darius, Irelia and Ignite (which was much weaker back then). Now literally every champion can access true damage through items (IE) or runes (Conq, Cheap Shot)

SaiannaJan 9, 20192 votes

Tbh vayne had broken the mold of what true damage was. On top of that this ability of her was either underperforming, or straight out made her broken.

I'd say we should get rid of all true damage from basic attacks. Vayne doesn't even need it. She could have, for example, working armor pen instead.

Gramps69Jan 9, 20191 votes

I'd have no issue with reworking her Silver Bolts ability in this way or something similar. I could definitely see people taking serious issue with this though, as %health True Damage is a part of Vayne's identity (I don't necessarily agree with the mechanic, but it is what it is). Possibly changing it to an active ability that grants the true damage on 3rd hit for an X second window, or moving it to be a part of the active on her R and getting a new W for more skill expression.

y0r1ckJan 6, 20192 votes

It isn't a problem if it is used sparingly and fairly. Nobody complained about cho'gath before his rework.

Auz the RipperJan 6, 20195 votes

Technically, health counters flat true damage because the proportion of your max health lost gets lower and lower. % max true damage is countered by damage because if you kill them first it doesn’t matter, although it’s bullshit the game’s been reduced to that

kargishJan 6, 201932 votes

Nostalgia is a convincing liar

FIrst off, most new champions and reworks do not have true damage. I have no idea where you're getting that from. The latest releases with true damage have been:

Zoe with her E (released 21-11-2017) Camille (released 07-12-2016) RekSai (released 11-12-2014)

We need to go years back before we collide with the latest true damage champion. The Fiora rework you're refering to was in 2015.

And what do you mean people didn't die in 1 second? It happened far more frequently back then. Has everyone forgotten Sword of the Divine and Deathfire's Grasp? Hello?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYCBzNC0yCw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaJZMD3MjVs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an1rQucJz0Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxhmskeCZJs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o49aAomHFIo&pbjreload=10

I too think Conqueror is bad design, but at least use some valid arguments as to why it is rather than refering to illusions of the past.

DrCyanideJan 6, 201912 votes

Pyke - Execute Ult acts as True Damage if it can kill you, Physical if it can't Urgot - Another Execute Ult that acts as True Damage

In contrast with Execute Ults of the past where you could live if you got some health back before the animation finished, these ones will kill you regardless.

It may help contribute to the idea of more True Damage added lately in kits.

kargishJan 6, 20196 votes

I don't disagree

But these types of executes aren't "true" true damage. It's conditional. It's a category of its own.

Even if it wasn't true damage, nothing will save you from 9999 physical damage either.

Leaf on BushJan 6, 20193 votes

If Urgot kills a tank then he does so because of cleaver... and Pyke will never kill tanks lul.

AirKingNeoJan 6, 20192 votes

Pyke's and Urgot's ult is an execute. It doesn't even deal damage.

Pyke ult does physical damage if it doesn't execute. Urgot ult just executes.

LhuhzJan 6, 20196 votes

Dont forget that Irelia used to have true dmg on her W before she was reworked.

Leaf on BushJan 6, 201914 votes

Most new champions and reworks have True Damage

Are you sure? Make a list and show us how many.

Frontline FuryJan 6, 201912 votes

Remember when cooldown reduction was a playstyle? You had to plan your entire item build around it.

Cats Are FoodJan 6, 20191 votes

And unless youwere Karthus you were trolling?

PepijndMJan 6, 20193 votes

Good old CD Mana Maokai trollpick

OneMustFallJan 6, 20195 votes

The good ole days...what rubbish.

Just as many "issues" with the game back then and just as many people complaining. There was never a good ole days. There was always True Damage and people have always whined about it. Take off the rose tinted glasses and stop living in this fantasy world that never existed.

Cats Are FoodJan 6, 20196 votes

Did you just say "There was always true damage?" For 4 years there were 4 champions in total that had true damage of any kind, and it did not scale at all. Yes, people complained about them, for the exact same reasons RIOT Devs kept trying to figure out how to REMOVE their true damage, because it was, and I quote, "A bad mechanic."

Skiks0Jan 6, 20195 votes

Nothing is sadder than seeing your 1100 armor and 5000 hp rammus getting bodied in 5 seconds. I think shit went down with Camille when the words "% max health" and "true damage" got combined.