We really need another Sorcery keystone

PaffWasTaken·Aug 27, 2018·64 votes·17,134 views

Choosing between two keystones who theorically do the same thing but who dosen't apply in the same way and a third one that more than a vast majority of the mage roster can't proc regularly isn't satisfying at all.

Bruisers got their missing keystone in precision. Domination got one too because "why not". But I believe mages really deserve to get a new one in sorcery.

Comet isn't relevant enough without cc.

Aery got nerfed so often it basically became a pure support rune.

Phase Rush isn't even designed for pure mages

I'm not saying present Sorcery keystones are bad. What I'm saying is that for a supposedly mage-focused tree, sorcery dosen't offer much in terms of keystone variety for pure mages. It's either more damage with a chance of missing, more damage (but less) with a 100% hitrate, or movement speed that you can't proc on a regular basis. Filling the hole in the mage-focused keystone roster should be top priority whenever future big changes are going to hit

95 Comments

Warlord RhinarkAug 27, 201836 votes

Deathfire Touch.

Please.

DPS Mages suck right now, it's only burst Mages that barely work.

BLIGHTBRINGERAug 27, 20182 votes

God I miss that Rune.

LazyW0lfAug 27, 20189 votes

I wholeheartedly agree. Then replace Scorch with something like the old Arcane Blade or Expose Weakness.

Fixes both the issues with Scorch being a meh T3 rune compared to the others and also gives DPS mages something to work with.

Warlord RhinarkAug 27, 20187 votes

{quoted}

I wholeheartedly agree. Then replace Scorch with something like the old Arcane Blade or Expose Weakness.

Fixes both the issues with Scorch being a meh T3 rune compared to the others and also gives DPS mages something to work with.

Scorch isn't actually a DPS rune, since it only does one instance of damage.

It's a poke rune more than anything.

Expose Weakness got merged into Press the Attack along with Fervor of Battle so you can scratch that one, but Arcane Blade is fine by me, if it's still just the normal "all auto attacks scale with AP" iteration, but it isn't very intuitive and is still kind of bland.

Then again, so is Scorch so Arcane Blade it is.

LazyW0lfAug 27, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dVWe1XEE,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2018-08-27T13:22:38.931+0000)

Expose Weakness got merged into Press the Attack along with Fervor of Battle so you can scratch that one, but Arcane Blade is fine by me, if it's still just the normal "all auto attacks scale with AP" iteration, but it isn't very intuitive and is still kind of bland.

Then again, so is Scorch so Arcane Blade it is.

I completely forgot about the damage amp on PTA. makes sense now. I guess the problem is that a lot of lower tier runes are really bland/passive. You don't have to think to use Gathering Storm, Waterwalking, Coup De Grace, Revitalize, etc... Makes me think that these runes also need to be something more passive to make sense as a replacement. Trying to take something from the old mastery system is also hard cause a lot of things were brought over to Runes Reforged or put onto items.

Scorch is just a dumbed down version of a keystone that some champs relied on, and then it was put in a tree where those champs who wanted to use it would rather have the other options. Most champs who used the old DFT were late game DPS champs who would rather have the damage amp of Gathering Storm.

Scorch fills a niche that doesn't exist in many cases, thus needing to be replaced. Either that, or Gathering Storm needs to be replaced with a less "generalist" option.

Warlord RhinarkAug 27, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I completely forgot about the damage amp on PTA. makes sense now. I guess the problem is that a lot of lower tier runes are really bland/passive. You don't have to think to use Gathering Storm, Waterwalking, Coup De Grace, Revitalize, etc... Makes me think that these runes also need to be something more passive to make sense as a replacement. Trying to take something from the old mastery system is also hard cause a lot of things were brought over to Runes Reforged or put onto items.

Scorch is just a dumbed down version of a keystone that some champs relied on, and then it was put in a tree where those champs who wanted to use it would rather have the other options. Most champs who used the old DFT were late game DPS champs who would rather have the damage amp of Gathering Storm.

Scorch fills a niche that doesn't exist in many cases, thus needing to be replaced. Either that, or Gathering Storm needs to be replaced with a less "generalist" option.

Sure, Scorch is definitely not a great rune, neither by design, nor in-game. It definitely needs changes.

A Mini-Deathfire Touch DoT would be too similar to Liandry's Tormet and become heavily abusable on someone ike Brand, so it can't be changed to that.

I think removing it is the only option there is.

warpenguin555Aug 29, 20181 votes

Hell you could make scorch a keystone. After 1.5 seconds or what ever the delay is on scorch, the damage increases based on how many times the enemy took spell damage from you. If champions like Malzahar/Brand are getting too much value from it, they could always add a cap amount or make a maximum amount of times a DOT ability could stack it up or something

Witch of BabylonAug 27, 20181 votes

Honestly though if Arcane Comet hit was guaranteed then we wouldn't need DFT. However, even if this change was implemented, it would still be bad for mages only to have 1 keystone to choose from.

Warlord RhinarkAug 27, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Witch of Babylon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dVWe1XEE,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2018-08-27T15:10:14.172+0000)

Honestly though if Arcane Comet hit was guaranteed then we wouldn't need DFT. However, even if this change was implemented, it would still be bad for mages only to have 1 keystone to choose from.

Comet guaranteed on hit would still favor burst Mages more than DoT Mages.

This is not to mention that if it did become guaranteed to hit, it's damage would have to get massively nerfed and now nobody wants it.

Besides, Aery is already supposed to be the "guaranteed hit" version of Comet. It would be way too similar to each other if both were guaranteed to hit.

Witch of BabylonAug 27, 20181 votes

Aery is NOT supposed to the guaranteed hit version of Comet. If Comet were to be guaranteed hit, Aery would become obsolete on mages who want the sustained damage. Aery is supposed to be a SUPPORT keystone, not just a keystone you want for more damage.

Warlord RhinarkAug 27, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Witch of Babylon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dVWe1XEE,comment-id=0002000200000000,timestamp=2018-08-27T20:00:40.582+0000)

Aery is NOT supposed to the guaranteed hit version of Comet. If Comet were to be guaranteed hit, Aery would become obsolete on mages who want the sustained damage. Aery is supposed to be a SUPPORT keystone, not just a keystone you want for more damage.

Then why does it have a damage component, then?

:thunking:

Witch of BabylonAug 27, 20181 votes

Because It's meant to give poke champions that can actually use the shield aspect of it better poke in lane.

Warlord RhinarkAug 28, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Witch of Babylon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dVWe1XEE,comment-id=000200020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-27T20:20:38.726+0000)

Because It's meant to give poke champions that can actually use the shield aspect of it better poke in lane.

Pantheon takes it. He can't use the shield aspect of it.

Rumble takes it as well. He can't use the shield aspect either.

Singed as well.

Teemo as well.

They all take it, and it's clearly not because of the shield aspect, because none of them can utilize it, and they must have a reason for taking it over Comet, right?

That's because it's guaranteed to hit.

It's obviously meant to be the guaranteed hit version of Comet, just with lower damage to compensate and added utility in the form of a shield to allies.

ThilmerAug 27, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Witch of Babylon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dVWe1XEE,comment-id=0002000200000000,timestamp=2018-08-27T20:00:40.582+0000)

Aery is NOT supposed to the guaranteed hit version of Comet. If Comet were to be guaranteed hit, Aery would become obsolete on mages who want the sustained damage. Aery is supposed to be a SUPPORT keystone, not just a keystone you want for more damage.

And what is supposed to be the "guaranteed hit" rune for mages?

Because I see a ton of Electrocutes and it doesn't do poke damage exactly…

The DreamwalkerAug 27, 20182 votes

I miss Deathfire Touch! I loved it so much! I miss the days when I could do Deathfire Touch MissFortune .

[sg-soraka]

rawiazam1Aug 27, 201817 votes

and inspiration

Dingding123Aug 27, 20188 votes

Hey now

let's not create a second Conqueror

BLIGHTBRINGERAug 27, 20185 votes

These are the Runes that I believe are in need of replacement...

Because Mages aren't the only one's that happen to lack diversity in Rune choice it seems. There are no Runes for DoT Champions (Aery is just terrible), no runes for On-Hit Hybrid champions besides Attack Speed, and etc...

A lot of the Runes we have in general don't seem to provide anything interesting, besides stats and bonus damage, no interesting unique effects or anything...

###PRECISION

Presence of Mind
Legend: Tenacity
Legend: Bloodline
Last Stand

###DOMINATION

Taste of Blood
Zombie Ward

###SORCERY

Nullifying Orb
Trancendence
Waterwalking

###RESOLVE

Overgrowth
Unflinching

###INSPIRATION

Glacial Augment
Hextech Flashtraption
Magical Footwear
Minion Dematerializer
Biscuit Delivery

The reason as to why I believe these Runes need to be replaced is because...

###UNINTERESTING

Legend: Tenacity (Tenacity that not only doesn't make a diference anymore but it's also something no one ever picks).
Legend: Bloodline (Boring free, weak Lifesteal).
Trancendence (Free Cooldown and bonus damage that scales with your CDR).
Overgrowth (Just a basic minor health increase).
Magical Footwear (Free boots essentially, don't grant any unique bonus apart from +10 bonus movement speed).
Biscuit Delivery (Free Potions).

###WEAK

Nullifying Orb (It scales with max Health but with damage as well, regardless of what this Rune is almost never picked).
Minion Dematerializer (After trying it several times, I barely see the effect it has apart from executing minions that your tower will kill).

###NEVER PICKED

Last Stand (Have to risk being low enough to deal additional damage, seems risky and pointless).
Waterwalking (Basically a Rune focused more around Junglers, granting Movement Speed in the River).
Unflinching (Using a Summoner Spell to gain Slow Resistance, and Tenacity).
Glacial Augment (Never picked, and just a simple free Frozen Malet).
Hextech Flashtraption (Used by Supports to create flashy plays).

###TOO SIMILAR TO OTHER RUNES

Zombie Ward (Not only does it not belong in the Domination tree, it also has the same purpose as Ghost Poro).

###DON'T BELONG IN THAT TREE

Presence of Mind (Mana and minor Cooldown refund on Ultimate ability upon takedowns?).
Taste of Blood (Sustain Rune in a Burst oriented Tree?).

Gramps aka DougAug 27, 20184 votes

Glacial augment is actually a great keystone depending on matchups. I usually take it if I'm playing a ranged champ against a Singed or other immobile melee champ to help with kiting, and makes their lane phase a living hell.

You can also take it on champs like Morgana and build Twin Shadows for extra procs, or Sion can make good use of it with Randuin's and Righteous Glory

The Last BalladAug 27, 20182 votes

I like glacial on Janna.

Combine it with Ingenious and item 3030 (when against juggernaut like teams, ahead, or in gamemodes) and every 20 seconds you get a 5th peeling tool(auto, q, w, ult, Hextech)

Votable JesterAug 28, 20181 votes

I like doing that on Zilean with Twin Shadows too. It's quite an unnecessary amount of slow most of the time, but it does enable some funny catches (Twin Shadows into slowing/stunning them for ages until your team catches up).

QuortAug 28, 20182 votes

I love Glacial Augment on Zilean! It's incredibly satisfying to ruin Juggernauts like that!

Votable JesterAug 29, 20183 votes

All those poor Volibears unable to do anything. Oh wait, armored bears don't belong in the League of Legends!

QuortAug 29, 20181 votes

Precisely!

Witch of BabylonAug 27, 20185 votes

I really like Transcendence and Biscuits though.

Votable JesterAug 28, 20185 votes

If they remove Transcendence with no compensation way to get CDR in runes I'll be pretty annoyed.

QuortAug 27, 20181 votes

I would be distraught of Glacial Augment was removed! It's one of my favorites when I can use it! I also love the Magical Footwear because it's nice to be able to pick runes to give you a reliable speed bonus.

Need Gold 4 TentAug 27, 20181 votes

Glacial Augment combos very well with approach velocity in giving sticking power, which can get quite ridiculous on champs like Yi and Shyvana early game.

QuortAug 28, 20181 votes

I always loved taking the Magical Footwear and Approach Velocity runes on Ashe with Primary Precision. You could basically just run down the enemy at level one!

DemainaNyxAug 28, 20181 votes

I'd like to argue some of these because they are specific for certain champions. That doesn't make them amazing on everyone, but it doesn't mean they are worthless either.

Karthus, for example, loves Presence of Mind and Last Stand. Presence of Mind gives him 16-20 seconds off his ult on assist or takedown and it's off the base cooldown. So with his 200 second level 1 ult, if he gets a Penta, it's now 100 second cooldown. And unlike Ultimate Hunter that is multiplicative, this isn't. It's a flat 10% off your max CDR. So say Karthus somehow had 40% CDR at level 6. His 200 seconds is now 120. So getting that Penta now means his ult is on a 20 second cooldown. VS Ultimate hunter that would just make his ult be something like 102 seconds.

Additionally, Last Stand works in his passive state. So as he's dead, he can ult and now do 11% more damage to the entire enemy team regardless of what their health is. Should also work on other dead passives except Kog'maws since it's true damage. This is true of Kindred, Tryndamere, Kayle, and Taric's ults as well. This also works on champions like Teemo who might be dead and an enemy walks on their trap. Is it a must pick on everyone, no, but it has uses.

Biscuit Delivery isn't just free potions though. It's also permanent mana. If you're someone like Ryze or Anivia, or anyone that needs mana, these just add a little more. Even people like GP will take it so between the Biscuits, Klepto potions, and Mana flow band, they never run out of mana in lane before they get enough money for sheen.

Hextech Flashtraption was a thing on Zoe for a while. Because it's technically a summoner spell, so she could use it to have a ghost and damage from her W. Don't know if that's still a thing but I've seen it. Otherwise I agree, it's kinda interesting, but it's only really good on someone like Annie or Alistar. Someone who wants to flash in for a big play but can't because of it's long cooldown.

I do agree with some of the others though. Except for people doing a Tenacity troll build I don't ever see it. Plus we have so many knock ups in this game that Tenacity doesn't really do anything. I used to take Zombie ward on my supports for more wards essentially but it's not really worth it to spec into that tree for one rune. Never seen anyone use Unflinching. Might be good with Hexflash though. If there is a site that has the pick rates of runes it would be interesting to see which ones are ignored though.

BLIGHTBRINGERAug 28, 20181 votes

I'm not saying that all of these runes are useless but that some of them are only good in certain occasions or champions.

With Presence of Mind I don't seem to understand why such a Rune is in the Precision Tree to begin with.

But Ican agree and understand what you are saying about the other Runes though.

ThilmerAug 27, 20183 votes

Arcane Comet is such a bad rune is hilarious, and I saw it the moment it was released.

The enemy can dodge the comet even at level 1 without boots; nobody is going to use it when Aery exists. Also, both Aery and Comet are way worse than Electrocute, to the point that I often play mages with Electrocute although it forces me to change my whole rune setting.

By the way, having to pick manaband with any mage is not cool. At some point Riot nerfed mana too much.

Crimson ZeppelinAug 27, 20182 votes

Arcane blade please. Also currently, dps mages are shut down by one adaptive helm. We can't even play around it.

Warlord RhinarkAug 27, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dVWe1XEE,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-08-27T07:30:11.490+0000)

Arcane blade please. Also currently, dps mages are shut down by one adaptive helm. We can't even play around it.

Isn't Arcane Blade... Kind of bland for a Keystone?

Crimson ZeppelinAug 27, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dVWe1XEE,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-08-27T08:16:45.939+0000)

Isn't Arcane Blade... Kind of bland for a Keystone?

Thats because it never was a keystone. This former mastery had potential. Just slap a cooldown on it like electrocute. and make your auto to be scaled on Ap, or even add aoe like tiamat. And it would be a cool keystone.

Warlord RhinarkAug 27, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dVWe1XEE,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-08-27T08:38:09.870+0000)

Thats because it never was a keystone. This former mastery had potential. Just slap a cooldown on it like electrocute. and make your auto to be scaled on Ap, or even add aoe like tiamat. And it would be a cool keystone.

I don't see any actual Mage taking this, I think they prefer either Arcane Comet because they have CC to go with it, or they take Electrocute because their burst is high.

The only ones I see taking this keystone are AP Assassins like Akali , Diana , Ekko , Elise , Evelynn , Fizz , Gragas , Kassadin , Nidalee and Zoe .

Besides, Aery already triggers on auto attacks and scales with AP so Arcane Blade would be way too similar to a Keystone we already have (cough Hail of Blades cough).

I'm sorry, but I don't really see the potential in this a Keystone.

AlzonAug 29, 20181 votes

Almost all mages will land at least one autoattack on an opponent during an all-in. Some, like TwistedFate and Viktor , are required to do so as part of their kit. The only mages who I can think of that don’t auto are Karthus Rumble Cassiopeia Ryze and sometimes Velkoz or Veigar

Warlord RhinarkAug 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Almost all mages will land at least one autoattack on an opponent during an all-in. Some, like and , are required to do so as part of their kit. The only mages who I can think of that don’t auto are and sometimes or

For Twisted Fate and Viktor, I can definitely see it, but I'm almost certain that other Mages prefer Arcane Comet or Electrocute for the burst.

Jerry SeinfeIdAug 27, 20182 votes

alright so adding a new keystone is fine by me just to make that clear.

But why are you guys so obsessed with sorcery and mages taking it? like you can run domination just fine. And what's bad about phase rush? why should other classes not be able to use sorcery?

LightIsMyPathAug 27, 20183 votes

Domination is shit in lane. Very few mages have "dump your whole kit" as a trading pattern. Later on it's simply too high as you are not ome-shotting someone and going out the fight like assassins do (ofc I assume for domination you mean electrocute)

ShadWoooAug 28, 20182 votes

Domination get is 4th rune so there would be even less reasons to pick anything else. In that sense it is more likely we can get the deathfire touch rune on domination tree than sorcery.

AirKingNeoAug 27, 20181 votes

Bruisers still only have 1 keystone. Mages have 2-3 at least.

SithesisLordAug 27, 20182 votes

Bruisers still only have 1 keystone

Bruisers have 2-3 Keystones, 4 if we include Electrocute using Divers like Elise, Jarvan and Lee SIn.

Mages have 4-5.

If every subclass had a dedicated keystone, we´d be looking at 10+ keystones per tree.

AirKingNeoAug 27, 20181 votes

Bruisers have Conqueror

Warlord RhinarkAug 28, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Bruisers have Conqueror

Bruisers have Conqueror in specific, shares Grasp of the Undying and Aftershock with Tanks, and shares Electrocute with Assassins and Mages.

RyrynounetAug 28, 20182 votes

and some use kleptomancy Fiora , pta Camille , lethal tempo MasterYi

Warlord RhinarkAug 28, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sa Majesté Ryry,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dVWe1XEE,comment-id=00100000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-28T11:55:32.601+0000)

and some use kleptomancy , pta , lethal tempo

I excluded them because these three in specific are only really used on one or more champions.

The ones I mentioned are picked on Bruisers much more frequently.

AirKingNeoAug 29, 20181 votes

what bruiser takes aftershock?

btw if I jungle which bruiser keystone do I actually take? electrocute has 0 scaling

Warlord RhinarkAug 29, 20181 votes