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[Discussion] The Death of CC: Farewell, Supression.

ModCaptainMårvelous··26 votes·4,210 views

So I wanted to make this thread to talk about something that's kinda been bothering me as of late. That something is the "death" of most CC types. Before we begin, however, let's look back at some of the older champions. Wouldn't be lying if I said I picked a few that coincide with my argument, but that's a moot point:

Malzahar - Silence and Supression, still boasts one of the strongest CC combos in the game. (That silence/supress combo is nasty). LeblancKassadin - These two originally had a silence so I thought it'd be nice to mention them. RammusShenGalio - The taunt trio, as I like to call them. Some consider taunt a lazy excuse to make someone focus a tank but I personally think, used correctly, it can be a great tool to diversify CC. AniviaTrundle - Terrain blocking I'd also consider a CC, as it directly stops you from moving or going somewhere. I'd say it's cool, at least. FiddlesticksNocturneShaco - Fear, also known as "Walk away from computer because fiddle feared me".

So, from some of these picks, we have some pretty unique forms of CC all around. Silences, taunts, supression, blinds, etc. Now, however, let's look at the last ten champions released and the CC they have. Just keep in mind this is a bit wide of a range, as Riot's release rate has slowed down.

Braum - Slow, Stun, Knock-up. Velkoz - Slow (x2), Knock-up. Yasuo - Knock-up (x2) Jinx - Slow, Snare Lucian - No CC Aatrox - Knock-up, Slow. Lissandra - Slow, Snare, Stun. Zac - Slow, Knock-up (x2) Quinn - Knock-back, Blind. Thresh - Pull, Knock-back, Slow (x2)

I could go on but let's just look at what we have on the table. Out of the last ten champion releases...

  • 7 of these champions have built-in slows.
  • 7 of these champions have knock-ups/knock-backs (They're about the same).
  • 2 of these champions have snares.
  • 2 of these champions have stuns.
  • 1 champion has zero built-in CC.
  • 1 champion has blind.
  • 1 champion has pull.

So...what am I getting at here? Well, for starters, we've suddenly got a huge influx of Knock-up/knock-back in the League. Of the original 40, I can only think of four that had knock-up/knock-backs (Those four being Rammus, Alistar, Blitzcrank and Malphite). Further more, we also have a huge amount of slows built into kits. Not a bad thing, but it does show a lot of focus on these "soft" forms of CC compared to the harder stuff.

My problem is this: Knock-ups seem to have gotten to the point where they seem to be phasing out other forms of CC.

"Why are you saying this?" you might ask. Well, for one thing, knock-ups aren't affected by tenacity like other forms of CC (For some reason) and as such they're likely easier to balance. It will always do a static 1 second knock-up compared to a 2 second stun which may do 1.5 seconds or a 3 second snare instead doing about 2.2-ish seconds of rooting, so on and so forth. Another thing is that knock-ups/knock-backs are arguably the strongest form of CC because they move the target. In a state where League has far more champions with movement abilities to close the gap, the strongest thing you can do to control them is to negate or force movement.

As for slows/snares, Riot seems to dislike the idea of losing control of your character even for a short amount of time. Snares/Slows are great to them because while you're impeded, you can still do something about it compared to, say, being stunned.

But is that really fair to other champions with these more unique CC effects?

I like the idea of both blind and silence being counters to auto-attacks and casters respectively, but Riot seems to dislike the idea of having one avenue of combat be unavailable to you. Silences seem to be slowly phased out of League, with the only remaining ones being Malzahar, Garen, Viktor and Talon. LeBlanc and Kassadin lost theirs for balance purposes but it still feels like this form of CC is slowly disappearing. Heck, we didn't get another blind until Quinn because of how strong it was against ADCs and yet we're gravitating toward more ADCs having a large amount of abilities AS WELL AS auto-attacks.

The easiest thing I could propose is that we migrate some of these forms of CC to items. Let's offer disarms/blinds on some sort of bruiser item if the ADC is fed. Let's get a sword that silences if you've got a nasty case of fed APC. Let's just not leave these CCs to rot and become relics of when league was younger.

Please don't let suppression slowly atrophy off. Don't let blind fall into darkness. Don't let silence be silenced. Give these CCs a chance. :(

65 Comments

Neofederalist5 votes

I'm not sure that having blind and silence on items is a great solution. Sure it would increase the prevalence of the type of CC, but I have a difficult time thinking of a set of item stats that contain these kinds of CC that don't make the items "must buy."

If you have the ability to completely (or close to it) take the two primary damage sources on a team out of a fight, it seems to me that the right decision is to buy those two items all the time. Which sounds fine to me as a player who likes to play bruisers, but still.

Either you have to make the item so stat-inefficient otherwise that buying the item feels (even when it's the right move), or you make it stat efficient, and you see these items every game.

My main philosophical opposition to silence and blind is that the two forms of CC don't affect all champion types equally. Casters are completely shutdown by silence while auto-attackers barely notice it, and vice versa for blind. Suppression is generally bad, because either the damage (WW, Malz) or utility (Urgot) are tied intrisically to the duration of the suppression finishing. Stun and knockup do damage at the start of the effect, suppression's full effect requires the entire thing to go off, and with the prevalance of Crucible on support, and QSS, it's significantly less consistent of a CC.

MrBuffington3 votes

Don't forget about Fiddle's silence. It's the most annoying in the game :P. Also Soraka's silence. Also annoying.

The thing I don't like about silences is that they're targeted (aside from Malzahar's, which I think is fine). It's pretty crippling for a lot of casters to get hit with a silence, especially from someone like Talon or Fiddlesticks. The reason Kassadin and LeBlanc had their silences removed was so that champions could actually fight back against an assassin; I think (and hope, honestly) that Talon gets his silence removed next. For Talon, his silence is coupled with a gap closer, which basically sets up the situation where either he one shots his target or he doesn't; there's not much gameplay there. Fiddlesticks has the capacity to silence an entire team, basically singlehandedly win a teamfight.

I'm fine with Malzahar's silence, also Viktor, Garen, even Soraka, I think overall silences need to be rethought in the game, not just thrown in as some sort of soft-cc. It has a very specific niche; I think it's been used too lightly, especially since it's typically targeted since it's viewed as a softer cc, where for many caster champions, it's practically a stun. Sure, you can move and AA, but a lot of mages don't do great damage with auto attacks and are also not too fast movement wise, additionally Talon's puts him right on top of the enemy, right where he wants to be.

acepil0t2 votes

The problem with removing Talon's silence in my opinion is that it will disrupt his style of gameplay quite a bit. Having played Talon quite a bit i know how vulnerable he is to CC due to the fact that he is VERY squishy and to be able to get his combo off at all in a teamfight he needs some form of cc mitigation so he can get close enough and do his combo. Since he is so squishy he can hardly get there before he is CC'ed and instantly murdered most of the time anyway, so in the late game where it counts he is hardly useful. The only way he is useful late game is if he can snowball his lane, and the silence just gives him a slightly better chance to do that. This is why I believe Talon should not get his silence removed.

MrBuffington2 votes

The thing about Talon is that he has kill pressure from lvl 3 onwards. He is a champion that relies on snowballing leads to win games; he, like most other assassins, have a hard time late game, since everyone at that point typically has enough defenses to not get one-shot, and it's harder to get picks since people are typically grouped. The thing about Talon is that he can get his damage out in like, half a second (EQWRR, more or less). Moreover, his silence is targeted, and sets up the rest of his combo. Basically, it's the case where if he has enough damage, as soon as you step within range of cutthroat, you're dead. Assassins are naturally high risk, high reward. Silence mitigates the risk.

You can make the argument that Talon needs the silence because he has no real escape (aside from his ult), but by the time you finish your combo, the enemy is either dead or no longer silenced, so the silence doesn't even serve the purpose of an escape. I would be in favor of removing the silence and giving Talon some other means of escape, much like Kassadin or LeBlanc have. To use those champions as examples also, they are both still strong even after the removal of their silence; Kassadin is still basically permabanned, and good LeBlanc players are still good, bad LeBlanc players are even worse, but that's the way it should be, imo. A champion should be powerful because the player is adept with them, not because they have unnecessary CC.

Pryotra2 votes

Fair enough, but is it uneccessary on Talon? I think not.

Talon, as you said, has no escape outside his ult. If you are going to be giving him an escape, you are now setting up a leblanc in-and-out style poke on top of his fan poke, and are giving him what is IMO unneccessary mobility. Talon was always a more dangerous pick, as he is the least mobile assassin in the game. As a result, by taking his CC and replacing it with mobility, you would be removing a crucial piece of his identity as an immobile All-in assassin that either does his job or doesn't. Essentially, you are calling for him to be homogenized.

Just because you don't like the idea of silence on an assassin doesn't mean it doesn't have it's place. I personally think that Silence on Talon makes sense, both thematically and literally in game. As a professional Assassin by trade, Talon literally "silences" his targets. Permanently. In game, he swiftly moves behind his opponent and slits their throat. This would cause a person to go mute IRL, but in game the silence is only temporary due to balancing.

In the end, I don't think it is fair to remove part of a champions identity when it makes sense, simply because "we are doing X to all champions like it, might as well do it to that champion!" That would be like removing the 3 second stun from Ashes ult because they removed all other 3 second hard CC elsewhere in the game. Riot themselves said they wouldn't do that, even though it broke their rule. Why? Because it was cool, iconic, and made sense to leave it in. When someone says kassadin, I see him jumping all over the place. When I hear leblanc, I think of all her tricks. When Someone mentions Talon, I think of him waiting till the opportune moment to jump behind someone, slit their throat, and end their life before they have a chance to say "I'm sorry." If he didn't at least have that sort of playstyle, then I don't think it would be Talon anymore.

Sneak Dog3 votes

Sometimes gameplay is more important. Talon currently has no counterplay. He just goes in and kills someone who can't even retaliate. This was the reason Leblanc got nerfed, this was why Kassadin got nerfed. The reason Talon hasn't been touched yet is because he isn't as strong as these two were. LoL is a game in which counterplay should exist (they don't really always succeed in this, but they try).

What Talon needs is a new burst paradigm (that's an appropriate word here right?) that allows for some counterplay while still being an assassin, Zed is a great example of a burst paradigm with counterplay (except that it falls off like a brick lategame due to banshees/ga/qss). Just removing his silence would be too harsh a nerf, so he needs something in return which probably calls for some more abilities of his mildly changing.

Omnipherious2 votes

Perhaps it would be less frustrating if Talon's E didn't silence automatically.

e.g. Cutthroat Talon appears behind his target and deals increased damage to them for a short duration. If the target's movement is impaired, they are also silenced.

Assuming this change is made, Talon now needs to hit you with W before being able to prevent a counterattack. Since the silence effect is now a combo'd effect, it might allow a slight duration increase if deemed appropriate (+0.5 at max rank maybe?). It also makes it so that if a ranged character allowed themselves to be hit by W in the first place, they fucked up and Talon deserves to punish them for poor positioning.

Spiritflare8681 votes

I had been reading the thread up until this point, and the only solution I could think of was finding a way to make his silence a skillshot of some type, and put his blink on another ability but yours is actually a really great solution. It would partner well with his passive, since having your opponent CC'd is already pretty important for him, and it would cut down a bit on his immediate chase potential. having to use your W to proc the silence gives your opponents a bit more of a chance to escape since you can't immediately slow them again. As for the increased duration, what if his W could be charged from a cone to a single skillshot, and the longer its charged the greater the damage from Rake and the longer the silence from Cuthroat would be? So an easier hit with the AoE, or a stronger CC with a greater chance of the target dodging.

Omnipherious1 votes

If the silence is no longer a guarantee, I don't see why Talon couldn't get a little more power elsewhere. Your idea seems like a fair, minor boost.

MrBuffington1 votes

This is a really cool idea. That's all I got to say, this is a really good idea, offers at least some more counterplay without really breaking much about Talon.

Pryotra1 votes

I did see this, but I have a limited amount of time for forum replies. Sorry it took so long to get over here. =/

As I said here, This sort of proc based system wouldn't work for Talon. simply by virtue that it would force him to play in-optimally in order to receive the effect.

For an example, Morgana was changed for this very reason, the MR shred on her soil was hardly utilized, as she always threw it down AFTER the snare. So they moved it over to the snare itself, so that the game play was more unified, and they didn't have to balance her around power she wasn't using but still had.

Another example along these lines was with Janna. They found that most Janna's would only pop the ult for the knock back, and would leave the channel the moment it was too dangerous for her to be in that position. Between leaving the channel early and dieing before finishing the ult/getting interrupted, Janna simply never really performed the complete old channel. So Riot shortened the channel and made the same heal amount happen in the smaller window. This allowed for those Jannas that would leave it on a little to feel their heal, instead of just popping it and immediately running due to the heal being too slow to be worth it.

The point I am getting at is that riot has figured out that game play should be fluid, and you shouldn't have to make the poor choice in order to reap the full power out of the ability. This, IMO, is why the Sona rework has been such a failure, because they forgot to account for things such as where Sona really needs to position, and as a result, Sona doesn't really feel fluid, because you need to make the wrong choice to access your power, in other words you need to hug the front line as squishy Sona so that the power in her kit can be felt.

Omnipherious1 votes

My apologies if my recommendation seemed thoughtless in regard to Talon's damage output and optimal combo.

My train of thought was more along the lines of the following:

  • Talon's main role is damage, as such his ideal combo should still be to lead with E for the damage amp and then combo'ing appropriately for the kill.
  • Talon accomplishes/acquires kills most effectively when he has the element of surprise.
  • Since preventing any/all counterattack is a poor pattern anyway, the change was intended to force Talon into a choice whereby Talon can take away control but he do this at the cost of damage.
  • With those in mind and his silence no longer a point-and-click, it would not be out of the question to actually increase his power.

I followed this train of thought because I was imagining a Brand-esque choice. He can stun one and then unload all damage, true. However, in a teamfight where you have allies to help apply lockdown you no longer require the stun from Q. As such, Brand can use Q to maximize damage output instead by going Q > E > W > R to ensure all targets are Ablaze before W hits for the damage amp and R prioritize them.

You may view this as forcing a poor choice but I do not. I definitely see and understand your point-of-view but I think making the silence an opt-in will allow Talon to receive other changes easier if he needs them. His pattern can definitely be preserved albeit in, as Riot likes to put it, a healthier manner (i.e. Rengar, LB, Kass).

You mentioned Sona as an example of poor choices but, you and I will have to agree to disagree. Every complaint I've heard of this are people trying to play the new Sona like the old Sona instead of trying to make the new Sona work. It is not the fault of the rework if the players do not know how/or even want to make it work. She, like Maokai and Braum, are intended to stay close to an ally/allies in order to maximize usefulness. That is the design goal and this rework literally shows you how close you need to be.

You say Riot failed to account for 'where Sona really needs to position' but then where is that determined? Does it say anywhere that Sona MUST BE in the front, back or thick of the fight? Where does it say that you MUST tag everyone with the aura EVEN IF it means compromising your own position? Nowhere. If you feel that you MUST tag everyone with the aura to be effective, that is your opinion. My opinion is you tag who you can and stay alive because that is where Sona's true strength lies. You keep yourself safe so you can keep others safe.

Pryotra1 votes

2 different points being made here, gonna break my response in two. In this response, I'll talk Talon.

I see your train of thought, but the idea that an assassin will choose anything other than damage is simply false. Assassin's sole purpose in this game is maximum burst. To chose utility over damage is pointless unless it allows a great escape from otherwise certain death. While mobility will do this, Talon's silence simply will not. Also, the utility of a silence does not trump denying yourself of your role in the game, unless it is AoE and Ultimate levels of duration.

If you want Talon to have to choose, damage simply cannot be a factor, or it is a non-choice. Also, I want to briefly touch on your brand reference. Honestly, while I see it making sense, Brand is a mage with a rather good DoT. Maxing damage isn't always necessary for him. That said, perhaps this is the reason that he isn't in a great spot either. Food for thought.

Omnipherious1 votes

You feel that Talon's silence is one of the things that makes him unique. You want his pattern to stay as is. You do not want the silence to be an opt-in at the cost of damage and you do not want silence to be replaced by mobility. Have I followed/understood correctly so far? What do you propose then?

Pryotra1 votes

I actually wouldn't mind removing the silence... so long as it had compensation. Thing is, unless you just buff his damage to extremes (think about it, if his damage goes any higher than he could assassinate tanks when ahead), you could only give him stronger CC, like a stun/grievous wounds, or a shield. And if it remains on the blink, it will still be targeted. While the Stun or sheild would be nice, I think that grievous wounds makes more sense overall. And his blink still needs to be able to interrupt channels, so there is that as well.

If the trade is damage for a silence, you would be a fool to choose anything but the damage, so I don't feel like that any choice involving that is a real choice, but rather a "You technically have a silence! All you have to do is sacrifice the entire purpose that you chose this champion for..." situation. If the trade is mobility, then he loses identity. If the trade is refreshing cooldowns, then again we have a situation where his identity is compromised.

The idea here that I am trying to convey is that I don't feel Talon needs the silence to be Talon. If it is taken away, however, he needs to still be Talon afterwords, not have random power jabbed into his kit to compensate for the loss of his disable. It isn't about what can we give Talon to justify taking away a silence; it's about how can we preserve Talon whilst weening him off of the silence.

Pryotra1 votes

2 different points being made here, gonna break my response in two. This response I'll talk Sona.

I stand by that comparison. Why? Because a) her optimal play pattern is being the place where she is safe while still supporting her team by being there, and b) They did not achieve what they set out to do.

As for the place where she is safe while still supporting, guess what? It doesn't really exist anymore. She is still insanely squishy, so she can't be anywhere near the front lines, but her range (outside of her ult) got gutted, so sitting on the back line means you are reletively useless. If your most powerful, non-ult ability (her heal) gets you killed for using it optimally (healing the low health front line), you really have goofed somewhere. Sona needs to be where she is usefull, as a positioning reliant support. This means that she needs either the range, mobility, or tankyiness to survive being in a place where she is useful. She has none of these things. And unlike Braum/Maokai, she isn't a tank. So that analogy is horrible if that is what they were going for.

As for not acheiving what they set out to do? Simply put, she is still an ult delivery bot that relies on Flashes CD more than R's. Otherwise, You are essentially a counter engage support now, except Support Heimer does it better. What about your original seige-style support, keeping your team well while poking at the enemy? Oh yeah, support Heimer does that better too. Ooops, a mage now invalidates everything Sona embodies without changing. That ult you say? RE has Heimer covered, and he doesn't even need to flash. Poking? W says Hi. What about heals? Heimer has the best healing aura outside of Sion's ult now, considering that Sona got nerfed and Taric lost his in S1. The only thing they suceeded at was making her power visible, but they could have easily provided the graphic alone and succeeded. This means that the only team that performed well on this rework was the vfx team. GJ guys. Shame everyone else dropped the ball.

I by no means consider the Sona rework a success, considering that removing the whole ult delivery system was a priority, or so they claimed, and yet in the reveal video you watch her need to use flash to get in range to ult to be useful in that fight, and at the same time you see how painfully small the effects are for tagging people with the newer, tinier "aura" ranges. I'm sorry, but if the reveal footage, which if you think about it should talk up the new changes, makes you feel like she got nerfed before seeing numbers, then you know it really is bad.

Omnipherious1 votes

As I said, you and I will have to agree to disagree on this as it comes down to a matter of perspective. You believe she is weak in her current state and I do not.

From what I can gather in your argument, you feel that Sona doesn't do anything very well in her current state; Please correct me if I'm wrong here. When I look at Sona's kit, I see a support that offers 1 of almost everything you could want; a poke, a speed boost, a shield/heal, AoE CC. Thing about that is, if she is the absolute best at doing even one of these things wouldn't she start crowding out others? Isn't the rule about being a jack-of-all-trades means you are also a master of none? She brings a variety of tools and I see that as her strength.

The comparison to Braum/Maokai was intended as exactly what I said, the circumstances in which she maximizes usefulness; not a comparison of their ability to tank; that would've been silly. Braum stays close to apply CC and take hits; Maokai does the same albeit through different means and pacing. Sona on the other hand applies buffs and contributes what she can in a particular situation.

I do not believe Sona is capable of providing singular support on par with that of other supports. Even so, I think that is okay simply because she is able to provide support to the entire team given the right circumstances. I do not think it is fair to say she is weak just because the scenario in which she is strongest is very rare in addition to being hard to pull off optimally when presented. It is all a matter of perspective, I really believe that. I also believe that I won't be able to convince you otherwise; which is why I say we need to agree to disagree on this.

Pryotra1 votes

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this.

You're saying she is essentially the jack of all trades for supports, I'm of the opinion she was already, and didn't need the raw power removed from the kit. Why couldn't tagging Q have just applied a strengthened, temporary version of the old aura as a buff instead of this eh on hit that a good amount of champions have no business using? Why couldn't E have been what amounts to a free Shurelia's late game in terms of power, but only dispersing the speed via tags? I understand that you feel that she cant be a jack of all trades without being a master of none, and I agree. However, we have another "jack of all trades" support, with a poke, a speed boost, a heal, and AoE CC. Why would I currently pick Sona over Nami? The sheild? Heh, that thing is weaker than shen's feint, and it HAS to be weak otherwise the late game mitigations would make him invulnerable during his feint.

I honestly feel like she had a lot of power removed in order to be flashy, with no consideration for what it would do to her. You want a Jack of All trades support? Look no further than Nami. Want a seige support? Heimer does it better, as well as lulu. A disengage support? Janna has you covered, as well as kayle. Counter engage support? SO MANY CHOICES, but IMO Alistar fits this bill best, followed closely by Morg and Taric. Engage support? Thresh, leona, and blitz are all competing for this title. So in what situation would I pick up Sona again? When Nami is banned/disabled?

I know what you were implying with those examples, but my point wasn't to point out they were tanks, but rather that both of your examples had something that allowed them to do it and stay alive. What does Sona have for this, again? It certainly isn't health, nor is it mobility. If you have to die in order to work as intended, that feels TERRIBLE unless you are a tank, as otherwise it simply takes too little time or effort to kill you to see the value of your sacrifice.

MrBuffington1 votes

Right, I also agree Talon is more of an all-in assassin, the mobility/escape I was thinking of would be something like a reset on cutthroat on kill/assist; if he doesn't kill his target, he dies, but if he does, he has a chance to get away.

I agree that the silence fits thematically with Talon, but that didn't stop the removal of silence from Kassadin (who actually references it in his VO) or LeBlanc (who's spell was actually named Sigil of Silence). I think gameplay takes precedent over lore and theme, and unfortunately that may result in loss of certain aspects of a character's identity. I don't think the lack of a silence will affect his ability to one-shot someone effectively, assuming the player is good with Talon (as seems to be the case with LeBlanc).

Pryotra2 votes

So he becomes Katarina instead? Ew.

The whole Idea of Talon was that you chose your target and chose the moment you took his life, not jumping around being a cleaner. I think being immobile and CC based is his identity. I mean, just look at his passive. If you remove his silence, you have dropped it down to only 1 way to proc it on his own. If you take the silence, you need to add more CC elsewhere, and frankly silence is probably the weakest CC he could be given.

While you argue it shuts down skill based champions, but I think the issue with leblanc and Kass was that they could do it at a safe range, whereas Talon litterally gives you a hug to do it. This meant they could implement it into their poke with 0 regard for it's use. Meanwhile Talon trades HP every time he does this, unless the enemy is too busy farming a minion wave without backup to notice.

Also, referencing it in a VO and having a skill on it is on a bit of a different level than being in lore (he slices the throats of his victims) alongside having an entire move based on the action. I don't even play Talon, and I feel that he should keep it.

MrBuffington1 votes

I mean, they are like, best friends.

I think the fact that he's mostly played mid lane makes silence one of the strongest CC he can have. He's fighting mostly ability dependent champions in mid lane. I don't think his passive procs on silences anyways, only slows, suppressions, roots, and stuns. His E just gives him damage amplification; it doesn't really have anything to do with the silence (unless I'm reading his wiki wrong).

The thing is Talon wants to hug you; he's a melee champion (I mean, so is Kassadin, but Kassadin was stupidly broken before the rework). He doesn't trade much HP since the enemy can't use abilities when he jumps on them (and they usually die before the silence is over).

The lore doesn't make an explicit reference to the silence though, only that he slits throats (actually, reading the lore again, I don't see any references to slitting throats, only the skill name).

My main problem with Talon's silence is that it's a targeted ability, meaning it has very little counterplay. A lot have made the point that Talon is an all-in sort of assassin, which would make a skillshot/ground-targeted dash a little out of character (he'd just use it to get around instead of attack), so I don't think there's a solution there. I think silences on mid laners is kind of strange, but I'm willing to accept it if there's something I can do against it (which is why I think Malzahar's silence is fine; I can and should just be able to dodge it).

30562438_DEL1 votes

Do you suppose one of the reasons he's played mid lane is BECAUSE he has that silence? You make a case for him losing it based on the matchups he has mid lane, but then why do you think Kassadin is played midlane? Because he's a Mage Killer. Being strong against one type of enemy is NOT a reason to nerf Talon, or any other type of champion. The fact that his silence lets him fit a certain nitch (assassin) does not make him overpowered: it merely means that he fits a nitch. It means that he does exactly what he's supposed to.

MrBuffington1 votes

He's played mid lane because he's an assassin; no where else do assassins fit in the meta. He's too squishy to be a fighter/bruiser/tank, so he's rarely seen top lane or jungle. He's certainly not a ranged ADC, and he has hardly any utility as a support. He's an assassin, assassins naturally do well against mages since they usually have very fast 100-0 potential; there's barely time for CC to matter with the speed that assassins can kill their target. He fits the assassin role regardless of having a silence. I'm not saying at all that he should lose his silence because he's supposed to be good against a certain type of enemy, I'm saying he should lose it because

  1. He doesn't need it to succeed. LeBlanc and Kassadin have been doing plenty fine as assassins without their silences. LeBlanc can still pop practically any target, Kassadin is still permabanned. If Talon is an exception and is still too vulnerable without the silence, heck, keep it, make it harder to use, which brings me to the second point
  2. There is very little counterplay a mage can do when they can't use their spells. Especially when all the enemy has to do is click on you to remove this ability. Sure, certain champions counter others, that should always be a part of the game, but there is a reason game balance is so important. You want the game to feel rewarding, for you to feel like there's always something you could do to win. It isn't a rock-paper-scissors match in champion select, there should always be a way to outplay your counter. Of course your counter has the advantage in the match up, but when your opponent just has to click on you and face-roll their keyboard, where's the fun in that? Where's the reward in that, for either player? It just plays out like the same scenario, over and over again. "Oh, Talon's in range for cutthroat? Guess that means I'm dead. Oh, I survived his burst? Guess that means he's dead".
Pryotra1 votes

I think you mis-understand. Talon is used mid because silence is strong mid, not the other way around. Silence allows him to compete in that lane, but by no means makes his opponent useless.

He dumps his damage ASAP when he makes his move, and then walks away if it doesn't kill them, opening him up to ALOT of attacks. Even on AP heavy champs, with the mastery those attacks will still hurt, and he isn't leaving their range very fast and has no sustain. Post 6, the counter play is dropping a pink ward so you can still attack him. He also has pretty low poke range compared to either Leblanc or Kassadin, as well as most mid laners, meaning that every trade is more dangerous to him.

Meanwhile, Both Kass and Leblanc blink away if their attempt fails (though lets be real, Kass didn't fail), or if they just want to poke. This means that unless you are an auto attack reliant champion, you have 0 answers, as you would have to chase at low HP just to even trade a little damage.

While you may point that talon could stand and fight, being an AD champ, realize that if his opponent still stands post silence and he isn't out of range, he evaporates very quickly. This makes champions like Cho, Rumble, and Swain excellent counters in lane, as they can shrug off the silence and survive the damage in order to pop the squishy. Meanwhile, Leblanc has no reason to stay face-range, and Kassadin could leave whenever he felt like it.

My whole point is that the champions it got removed from were the mobile ones, that weren't really needing the silence for safety due to their mobility and range. Talon simply doesn't fall into this category, and frankly has WAY more counter play than either of the others had. I see no reason to remove a champions unique nature to homogenize them solely because he has something that was removed from other champions in the same role. If I was seeing Talons abusing that silence like either Kass or Leblanc used to, then I would see the point. But that simply doesn't happen. Talon has healthy gameplay, as far as assassin's go. Leblanc and Kass did not.

MrBuffington1 votes

Silence does not make a mid laner. You never see Cho'Gath or Garen mid lane. Why not? They would be great! When Garen silences you, he's right on top of you, perfect for his spin. Cho'Gath silences you, it's going to be bloody difficult to get away from his knock-up, he'll just chew you up.

You don't see these champions mid lane because they don't fit. Talon is an assassin, he naturally fits in mid lane. Katarina has a fairly similar playstyle; jump on the enemy, try to burst them down. If they die, you get away, if they don't, you're pretty much stuck. Katarina doesn't need any CC even though her ability to escape is almost as dependent on killing the enemy as Talon's. Talon even has the ability to trade better than Katarina after he uses his burst, since his autos are doing extra damage thanks to his passive, the slow on Rake, and the damage increase that comes with cutthroat (which has nothing to do with the silence, by the way).

You say that LeBlanc and Kassadin's range gave them the advantage; Mages have just as much, often more, range than either of these champions. Range does not counter range. Mages want to be at range because that's where they excel, when they're at melee range, they have a really hard time surviving. Talon wants to be at melee range, he has the advantage there, and he has a reliable gap closer to get to melee range, and his gap closer also guarantees that his opponent won't be able to trade back. Where is the counterplay in that?

He dumps his damage ASAP when he makes his move, and then walks away if it doesn't kill them, opening him up to ALOT of attacks

Correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like this is saying that, after Talon has a chance to kill you, if you didn't die, then maybe you can do something about it. That's the problem, there's no gameplay there. I will reiterate: the issue has more to do with the targeted silence, than the silence itself. Assassin's need a window to engage on their target. Talon's window is simply being in range for cutthroat. By contrast, Ahri needs to land a pretty tough skillshot. Katarina usually waits for less hard CC from the enemy so she won't get knocked out of her ultimate. Fizz usually wants to land his shark (yea, Fizz is also OP, but his only non-ult CC is a slow that's tied to his escape). Zed needs a clear pocket where he can ult and deal damage to his target since he doesn't have the safety of CC (aside from a slow). LeBlanc either needs to land her chain (a skillshot) or just have ridiculous mechanics to land all her spells. Kassadin similarly needs time to deal damage (but he's a bad example since he's still broken).

I'm going to say something that's about as counter-intuitive as it is true. An assassin's job is to kill priority targets; if they do this, it doesn't matter if they die. Let's say you're playing an assassin, you kill their ADC and you die immediately afterwards. You might think, okay, it's an even 4v4 teamfight now, but it's really not. What did your team lose? An assassin, who, beyond the initial burst combo, doesn't provide much to a teamfight. What did the other team lose? Their primary damage dealer.

I'm not saying that Talon should die after he kills his target, especially when most other assassins have some method of escaping upon success. Sure, you have your ult, and the enemy team can drop a pink and kill you while you're escaping, but again, what are they doing there? They're using their spells to kill a target that's no longer a threat; Talon's done his job, so while they're busy burning resources on a useless Talon, Talon's team is killing their team.

I know I covered a lot and sort of drifted away from topic at the end there. My point is that assassins offer a huge advantage to a team, and there needs to be some risk to that. I honestly think Talon could function just fine without his silence, maybe you and I will never agree on that, who knows, ultimately my point is that Talon's silence is way too reliable because it is targeted.

Pryotra1 votes

How would you feel about making it similar to shen's taunt then? Keep the range, keep every thing the same, just make it a skillshot dash that silences anything in the way.

Might be OP, seems balanced though, as a) he can now miss, and B) gets travel time, allowing cc to stop him.

MrBuffington1 votes

I personally think a dash would look weird on Talon; how about an AoE blink, like Kassadin's ult? I think you could get a cool cast animation where he vanishes and appears again on his target or something. Or, since AoE silence might be too much (or just be too punishing to miss), something like Ezreal's Arcane Shift, where it does no AoE damage where he blinks to, and it's Talon's next auto that silences? You can probably even boost the silence duration, or damage amplification, since it's harder to land (and easier to dodge). I actually think this would be pretty cool on Talon.

My only concern is if Talon's theme is supposed to be a risky assassin, he now has an escape. I suppose you could mitigate this by having a similar mechanic to Shen, where it costs much more mana but Talon gains back mana if he hits a champion with it. That way he can't use it recklessly to blink around since he'll go oom pretty quick.

EDIT: Omnipherious had a really clever solution. Basically cutthroat only silences if the opponent is movement impaired. That way Talon could W his target first, then blink to them; he still doesn't have an escape, but it offers counterplay in that he has a more situational window of engagement, unless he wants to jump on you without a silence, which allows you to trade back. Meanwhile, Talon can mind game his opponent, maybe force a flash at best or simply make them play more defensively when he has them slowed.

Pryotra1 votes

I like the idea of making it like Ezreal's, with extra cost that is partially refunded for attacking a target within the time frame, but I feel it simply gives mobility like you mentioned. Also, while I like the idea of a comination of abilities to proc the silence, how you suggested would REALLY screw talons over, as they would have to either lose out on silence or lose out on the element of surprise when jumping on the enemy.

I would normally suggest making any combo of abilities with cutthroat set off the silence, but I feel that is essentially a meaningless change, as he really does drop everything at once, backs off, and sees if he can do it again once his cd's are up. There would literally be no change. Honestly, I think the best way of doing it is a targeted blink like current, but move the silence over to his on-hit, and make the blink a targetted ability instead of a blink + attack. So the new combo would be EQ Auto(target now silenced) WR. Effectively the same, but at least it isn't a targeted silence.

MrBuffington1 votes

I disagree about the combo hurting Talon; LeBlanc always had her silence tied to a combo, that never hurt her. His E is still targeted, it can still be reliably used, like a QR combo from old LeBlanc. If anything it gave her more options as far as combat, made her actually think about how and why she was using her abilities.

Pryotra1 votes

Again, Leblanc =/= Talon. If you forced Talon to first peg his target with his slow, he would simply not do it 9/10 times because losing the element of surprise is dumb, not to mention Talon would lose out of some damage from the damage amp.

Talon's combo in a teamfight currently consists of blink first => dump all damage => Try to walk away using stealth in ult. Correct me if I am wrong, but you are asking for Peg with fan => blink => unload rest of damage. This means that the moment you see the fan come out, you back off, using dashes or blinks yourself to stay outside of range. The fan would lose out on the damage amp, and talon would lose the element of surprise. No silence would be worth that, unless it was 5 + seconds long maybe.

I was thinking make his blink NOT an auto attack as well, and move the silence over to his on-hit. This would only force him to weave in an auto attack more than what is in his current combo, while still making it not a targeted silence. This would allow for clutch things like jax dodge or Fiora sheild, or even perhaps an hourglass/troll pole/troll pool/lis ult. It wouldn't invalidate him, wouldn't force him to play un-optimally, and still add a smidgen of counterplay by removing the targeted silence.

MrBuffington1 votes

I'm saying LeBlanc never lost the element of surprise because QR is incredibly quick, much like WE for Talon. I'm trying to offer counterplay into Talon's combo, also forcing Talon to make a decision; do I want extra damage on W, or do I want the element of surprise? Heck, there's still the element of surprise, since, as you said, Talon isn't going to go in on every W he lands. Even if the enemy backs off, that's a good thing, it's creating incredible zone pressure for Talon for nothing more than his W, he can deny CS incredibly easily because the second they walk in range while slowed, there's immense kill pressure from Talon.

His blink is already not an auto attack; it does no damage. He hardly gets bonus damage from his blink either since that's usually the last thing he levels (it's at a measly 3% amplification until lvl 14).

Honestly I think this would make Talon a more interesting champion. Right now his combo is just E + Faceroll keyboard. This change adds more depth to his kit.

MrBuffington1 votes

I actually didn't give your idea fair consideration, so let's talk about it. You're saying that his blink gives his next non-Q auto attack a silence?

You know what? I'd say that's a fair idea. My main goal in suggesting his silence proc on slows was to deal with his laning phase, where he has kill pressure past level 3. What it also does is make his teamfight a bit more difficult, where he has to focus his W on the target he wants to silence, instead of being able to do something like, silence the support to prevent CC or other utility, then focus damage on the ADC or something. Your change still gives him this ability, but also the ability to not auto-stun the target he blinks to, so he can pull off plays like blink to a tank, ult for movement speed and stealth, then silence a mage in the back line. It also gives that fraction of counterplay to his laning phase, so I think it's a decent idea.

That being said, who knows if anyone at Riot is reading this.

Pryotra1 votes

Not quite what I had in mind, but it could work if you make the blink essentially get it's own on hit on the side that contains the silence AND the damage amp. Keep in mind that damage amp is what talon revolves around as an assassin. If the silence is to become a choice like that, the amp will NEED to follow.

I was actually thinking attach the silence to the Q, and remove it from the Blink on E altogether. If you feel this creates too much power on Q, you could move the DoT from Q over to E, making it feel alot more smooth.

Pryotra1 votes

looks like they lied about removing the reply limit.

sigh

guess I get to make a new topic on it.

MrBuffington1 votes

Well Q is just an empowered auto, isn't it? I was thinking the silence would be a separate empowered auto, but it could combine with Q. Q has a much lower cooldown, you'd be able to silence too many people. Having it still attached to E makes it so Talon has to choose who to silence, just like he does now. And yea, the damage amplification would naturally go with the silence, no point in amplifying damage against a target you're not hitting.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

looks like they lied about removing the reply limit.

sigh

guess I get to make a new topic on it.

There's no reply limit any more. However, since the page is only so wide, there is a depth limit; your post won't indent any further. Did you get a notification for this?

edit: I'm not sure this is true any more; it used to be that when you're at the depth limit, there was some wonky behavior where my reply to your post could be sorted above your post if it were upvoted above yours. Not sure if that is still the case.

MrBuffington1 votes

yea all these comments are at the same depth, there's some oddities sorting, but i still got a notification for this

Pendragon4 votes

You can continue to reply, it just doesn't show it as being nested. When we find elegant ways to nest the content we will reintroduce them.

MrBuffington1 votes

Looking forwards to it! Thank you!

Pryotra1 votes

I am getting 0 updates here, didn't even know this conversation happened here. I'll have to reply to Pendragon as well, to see if he gets the update.

Pryotra1 votes

I am getting 0 updates here, didn't even know this conversation happened here. I'll have to reply to Pendragon as well, to see if he gets the update.

Just sayan, I don't think it is. Otherwise, why am I getting 0 notifications?

Hyrum Graff1 votes

There is, however, still the bug where posts at the maximum depth can be out-of-order (ie, a reply listed above the post it replies to). Case-in-point: your reply.

MrBuffington1 votes

yea, like I really can't follow this right now, maybe if i switch to chronological view or something, idk

30562438_DEL2 votes

So, the problem with silences and blinds is the fact that they are almost all auto-hit abilities?

Can't we just solve that by attaching the silence to a skill-shot instead of making it auto hit? (great idea for Kassadin, btw )

MrSc0tty2 votes

I'm still waiting on Cripple: opponent may not use dashes or blinks while affected.

The cc type that League DESPERATELY needs.

Omnipherious1 votes

I think migrating Silence and Blind to items could be interesting but the stats on those items would need to be mediocre to prevent them from becoming another Zhonya's. However, I doubt this will be done given Riot's stance about hard-counters and availability of counterplay/meaningful decisions for both sides. Unless this changes during preseason, probably no dice.

I think a good start at giving CCs a chance is to make Tenacity better.

Tenacity is supposed to be an investment into CC reduction. Given its rarity, seems pretty ridiculous that there are so many champions now that can effectively ignore tenacity. I mean really, what is the point of getting Mercs + Tenacious if half of the CC you face are the non-reducible Knock-ups/knock-backs anyway? Suppression should remain the one, true non-reducible CC.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

I completely agree here...Tenacity is really in a bad spot. There´s much displacement going on nowadays - and you´re pretty much forced to go mercs, as any other source of Tenacity is an absolutely niche item. There really should be more ways to acclaim Tenacity then getting mercs (maybe even make it a boot enchant and find another use for mercs?).

Omnipherious1 votes

If Tenacity became a boot enchantment, Mercs could get the Slow Resistance from Swiftness to maintain it's niche as a defensive boot pick up. Swiftness could get something else and perhaps fill a more offensive role instead, becoming an alternative to the offensive Zerkers (ignore unit collision, +MS when near an ally, +MS when moving towards enemy, +MS while in brush/unseen by enemies, etc)

Personally, I don't think making Tenacity a boot enchant or adding other Tenacity items is the answer. Keeping it on Merc Treads makes it a valid in-game choice with clear trade-offs. You want this sweet Tenacity? You need to give up that Mpen/Armor/AS/etc.

Carries make the same choice when picking up Zephyr. Like Merc Treads, it is mediocre stat-wise but you don't get it for the stats in the first place.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

oh well, most carries only buy zephyr as 6th item because it offers more dmg than berserkers and still some ms...So it´s not really a choice - and tenactiy doesn´t affect the choice at all 99% of the times. And having it as boots-enchant would still have great trade-offs, as you can´t have two of those the same time...so you´d trade it for homeguard/distortion/alcacitry/whateveryoudesired.

Omnipherious1 votes

You have a point that in most cases the Tenacity is an afterthought when buying Zephyr. However, you still give up Homeguards/Alacrity/etc as well. Yes, it provides more stats than Zerkers but there is still a clear trade-off.

It's more about preventing an offensive boot from doubling-up as a defensive boot. Being an enchantment makes Tenacity less of a choice. It goes from -being on a specific item- to -available no matter what boots you picked up-. The latter is way easier and requires much less planning/investment. You do not have to deviate from your regular build to acquire Tenacity. If that were the case, why shouldn't we be allowed to pick Ninja Tabi's passive as an enchantment? Or Swiftness passive for that matter?

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