What supports do G&B bois agree DO need buffs/reworks?

chipndip1··3 votes·1,236 views

Even obvious ones are fine...except Taric since he's been slated for a full-on rework for a while now.** Anyone with the support tag is fine**, and state if you think they need some buffs or a straight up rework specifically tailored to supporting. We're looking at:

Alistar Anivia Ashe Bard Braum Fiddlesticks Heimerdinger Janna Karma Kayle Leona Lulu Lux Morgana Nami Nunu Orianna Sona Soraka Syndra TahmKench Thresh Zilean Zyra

40 Comments

Miku Hime sama5 votes

Ashe There are no good AD item options for support. Ashe herself is perfectly fine, there's just a nonexistent support build path. I guess you could play her as a second ADC, but between Sightstone setting her behind, not getting farm and being the most expensive item path in the game, it'd be a long time before she does anything.

Fiddlesticks Probably just needs some small buffs. He used to get played a lot more, both jungle and support, but several nerfs in the past year has made him fall out of favor.

Kayle A lot of her power is in her scaling. This is not ideal for supports champs who have oft rely on base stats due to a low income making item purchases difficult.

Nunu A melee support without a form of hard CC, but I'm not sure if there's any room for buffs without risking Kog'Maw becoming too strong.

Sona This is the weakest support in the game hands down, even weaker than Taric, patch 4.13 completely ruined her. Everything she can do, AT LEAST 2/3 of the other supports in the game can do better and both Nami and Bard are on every last one of those lists. Her kit can't work, she will never be fixed without a revert, partial revert or re-rework.

Zilean His only damage source is a skillshot, his abilities all got nerfed and his reset doesn't work on ult anymore. There are a lot of places that can be fixed and it'll take at least a few of them to make him work.

Blade of Justic2 votes

Zilean just needs a better passive.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

Ashe Fiddlesticks Heimerdinger Kayle Lux Syndra

None of these champions are intended to be supper strong supports. It just happens to be that parts of their kit fulfill the one or more of the most basic things a support wants.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Ashe Fiddlesticks Heimerdinger Kayle Lux Syndra

None of these champions are intended to be supper strong supports. It just happens to be that parts of their kit fulfill the one or more of the most basic things a support wants.

I mean, that's ENTIRELY fine and all, but the point of the question was "Who do you guys think should gain buffs/reworks as supports?". That means that if someone wasn't intended to be a strong support, you don't have to say "Ashe should be able to steadily increase the strength of her slows as she hits you so her adc can chase and-", because you don't believe that.

Environmentalist1 votes

Lulu should be able to polymorph everyone on the map indefinitely so there are just 10 squirrels flopping around all game. / 10 cupcakes / 10 black kitties / 10 baby dragons / 10 snowmen / 10 baby seals

Zmuecat1 votes

I think the change is nice, but it sounds like it could ruin the champion. She is CCing herself, and I see that as a nerf. To balance it out, I believe all jungle monsters should also be affected, then all the jungle mobs go to mid lane and start an adorable creep war.

You might have to polymorph the minions too, but I'd rather wait and see opposed to straight up making her overpowered.

Environmentalist1 votes

LOL I totally thought you were being serious at first. XD You got me good. Yes! Jungle creeps too. That would be... 30 squirrels running around! (including champs, baron, drag, scuttles). / 30 cupcakes / 30 black kitties / 30 baby dragons / 30 snowmen / 30 baby seals

Crossette1 votes

One by one, my opinions. Feel free to voice your own. Alistar is k. Anivia is barely a support unless she's with Vayne. Two slows and a stun doesn't excuse the killsteals xD Ashe how is this a meta support? I could see it happening... But why? Bard is god and always will be, no matter how bad his heals are. Braum is macho man who don't need buffs. Fiddlesticks honestly has too much CC and damage to not be complained about in any role. Heimerdinger if you play this support then you should stop playing bot games. Janna is k, plenty of peel and an AOE heal is good for her lack of damage. Karma could use a touch less damage, both for her supporting and her mid lane. Kayle shouldn't be played support. If she is, then she works decently well in doing her job of protecting. Leona seems to do more damage every time I fight her. Lulu has a super oppressive laning phase and lots of damage. (see Worlds) Lux does too much damage for her CC and always has done too much damage. Morgana has no problem aside from maybe her snare duration. Nami requires lots of precision bubbles, but does a lot of damage and supports well when executed correctly. Nunu shouldn't be played support. Orianna has a shield, speed boost and displacement ult. Other than that she's locked into mid lane. Sona still does lots of damage for how much utility she brings. Soraka needs a heavy nerf, specifically to her heals on W. Q may heal her too much as well. Syndra shouldn't be played support. TahmKench is still super annoying to fight against because he just devours his allies when they should die, and his shield is oppressive paired with his damage, but his kit is fun. Thresh is my favorite support and honestly too powerful. Zilean does so much damage if he builds full AP, paired with his AOE stun. It may be hard to land, but it's VERY effective when it is landed. Zyra is still sort of underpowered.

EDIT: Blitzcrank is the least risk high reward champion I've seen. It's sad how powerful he is when all he does is hook and knock up.

Edit Edit: If you downvote, actually say something instead of turtling behind the internet.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

One by one, my opinions. Feel free to voice your own. Alistar is k. Anivia is barely a support unless she's with Vayne. Two slows and a stun doesn't excuse the killsteals xD Ashe how is this a meta support? I could see it happening... But why? Bard is god and always will be, no matter how bad his heals are. Braum is macho man who don't need buffs. Fiddlesticks honestly has too much CC and damage to not be complained about in any role. Heimerdinger if you play this support then you should stop playing bot games. Janna is k, plenty of peel and an AOE heal is good for her lack of damage. Karma could use a touch less damage, both for her supporting and her mid lane. Kayle shouldn't be played support. If she is, then she works decently well in doing her job of protecting. Leona seems to do more damage every time I fight her. Lulu has a super oppressive laning phase and lots of damage. (see Worlds) Lux does too much damage for her CC and always has done too much damage. Morgana has no problem aside from maybe her snare duration. Nami requires lots of precision bubbles, but does a lot of damage and supports well when executed correctly. Nunu shouldn't be played support. Orianna has a shield, speed boost and displacement ult. Other than that she's locked into mid lane. Sona still does lots of damage for how much utility she brings. Soraka needs a heavy nerf, specifically to her heals on W. Q may heal her too much as well. Syndra shouldn't be played support. TahmKench is still super annoying to fight against because he just devours his allies when they should die, and his shield is oppressive paired with his damage, but his kit is fun. Thresh is my favorite support and honestly too powerful. Zilean does so much damage if he builds full AP, paired with his AOE stun. It may be hard to land, but it's VERY effective when it is landed. Zyra is still sort of underpowered.

So your answer to this thread...is Zyra...basically Zyra.

Crossette1 votes

I just realized that.

Well.

Don't know how tired I was when I made this post, but there are a few other supports (I.E: Nami) that really don't fill their role well enough. I only see her as a support when Yasuo is in the game.

NoMonku1 votes

Zyra needs help. RIOT gutted her after C9 showed how dominant she could be with the Ashe/Zyra lane in S3. She hasn't really gotten any meaningful love since then. Sure she can still hurt now, but because of how short ranged she is now, she can't really do well anymore. I feel they need to rework her so she is either a mid/top mage or a support because her ability to fill the same role as support is what killed her in the first place.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

I don't want to see Sona anywhere in this thread (in regards to needing buffed). That circlejerk is both completely ridiculous and extremely annoying.

Miku Hime sama4 votes

This ladies and gentleman, is what we call prejudice. He's projecting an unjustified hate directed at a specific subset of people.

To learn more about our country's history of prejudice, see also: Martin Luther King Jr. and Susan B. Anthony

Slamurai Jack2 votes

It's not unjustified. Sona's been sitting at 52%+ win rate the entire season and I constantly have to hear about how terrible she is and that she's trash tier and that she needs enormous buffs to even be playable. Meanwhile, this community is clamoring to gut my main Yasuo for the second time for having the audacity to be anywhere near a 50% win rate. You guys are calling for massive buffs on a champion that's been at around 53% for the entire season while calling for guttings of champions like Thresh, Yasuo, and Lee Sin who can't even reach 50%. You guys are a bunch of babies. Oh, and keep permabanning Garen while Lux gets through bans every single game with a 55% win rate and 15% pick rate.

Miku Hime sama3 votes

Mains Yasuo, claims Sona is strong. Now I have a better idea of what kind of sheeple, fad-chasing band-wagoner I'm talking to.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

Lol. I've been maining Yasuo since everyone thought he was terrible. I kept playing him after 4.18 when everyone jumped ship. The only sheep is here is you for jumping on the Yasuo OP bandwagon just like everyone else.

Miku Hime sama3 votes

Which of those other sheep can quote Riot on the reasons why Yasuo is broken? When creating him, they envisioned a light-weight front-liner dueling out the enemy front-liners. However, his ult let's him reach the enemy back-row with ease and turned him into an assassin. His ultimate does not fit his theme and prevents him from taking on the envisioned role. It's Riot's sheer stubbornness and arrogance that they refuse to rework his ult into something balanceable.

I doubt you actually care about any of that though, you've already made it clear your a prejudicial bigot.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

Did you even watch the champion spotlight? He's used there exactly how he's used on live. Duke it out with enemy front lines and then ult enemy back lines when the opportunity arises. I have no idea what vision you're talking about. And please, calling someone a bigot on a gaming forum in a discussion about champion balance makes you sound like a teenage girl that spends way too much time on tumblr. If you're gonna insult me, do it in a way that makes sense. A bigot? Really?

Miku Hime sama3 votes

You chose to come to this thread. You chose to create an intentionally inflammatory post. You chose to instigate an argument on an otherwise civil discussion.

Who's at fault here?

Slamurai Jack1 votes

What can I say, I enjoy riling up some salty Sona players. They actually think their champion is bottom of the barrel despite 0 numerical evidence anywhere. A 52% win rate champ is not bottom of the barrel. They are, at the very worst, average. You know who is bottom of the barrel? Lucian, who many on these boards insist on defending for whatever reason. Lucian is absolutely terrible and the worst in the game at his role, and I can cite winrates spanning the entire season to go along with that argument. What do Sona players have to show that their champion is weak? Absolutely nothing other than their own opinion. It's an extremely popular opinion around here for reasons that I cannot fathom but it still has no evidence going for it whatsoever. So yes, this time, I started it. And I want to see you defend yourself with something other than "She feels weak."

RedCyclone2 votes

winrates winrates winrates It's all you guys look at, but fuck it, fuck play rate and player experience only winrate matters

Sona maintains a high winrate because she is easy to play, easy to do well with if you don't know shit about the game Only supporting as her is the most mindnumbing experience you can put yourself through because it's so fucking boring and everything you do outside of ulting feels like you do nothing (here take my 150hp lategame heal)

She plays like shit in her primary role, buffs, nerfs, rework? who gives a shit as long as it improves the champion experience all around

Slamurai Jack2 votes

If you want to argue that Sona is boring to play or doesn't feel very impactful, I'd be inclined to agree. Work could certainly be done to make her feel more engaging. But I don't want to hear that she's weak or isn't having success, because she isn't weak and she's well above average in terms of actually winning games.

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dN9lm98t,comment-id=000500000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-03T09:55:07.540+0000)

ucian is absolutely terrible and the worst in the game at his role, and I can cite winrates spanning the entire season to go along with that argument.

Well this is cute considering i have people in my friendlist who have >50% winrate with Lucian over 100 games and they don't whine about buffs or whatever and they constantly win with him at dia 3+ elo.

http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=how+to+get+rekt

Maybe you should just learn to play him mr. dia 5?

Slamurai Jack1 votes

Wow, 1 person who can make Lucian work. Maybe he should teach all of us because the community as a whole is really terrible at Lucian apparently, considering that even Lucian mains can't manage a 50% win rate. While we're at it, how about I teach everyone how to play Mundo jungle since I have a 57% winrate on it in over 100 games but Mundo jungle as a whole only manages a 43% win rate. You're not going to see my arguing for Mundo jungle being good, because it's not. I just enjoy playing it.

You wanna know the real reason I know Lucian is terrible? Look at all of the ranked stats for the best adc's in each region. They either don't play Lucian at all or have far lower win rates on him compared to other adcs. 55% on Lucian sounds nice until you see that their Kalista has 80%, their Sivir has 70%, and their Tristana has 65%. Lucian's been rocking bottom of the barrel win rates ever since they nerfed his passive in 4.21 and until they either undo that change or buff him massively some other way, he's going to remain the worst adc in solo q.

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dN9lm98t,comment-id=00050000000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-10-03T11:05:46.941+0000)

cut

TL; DR: L2P Lucian

Miku Hime sama4 votes

And I want to see you defend yourself with something other than "She feels weak."

  • She has the lowest base damage amongst the entire support class
  • She has the 2nd lowest damage potential of all supports
  • She has the weakest heal in the game with both the lowest base AND scaling, coupled with the highest mana cost
  • She has the 5th lowest HP in the game, despite having no pre-6 hard CC and being stuck in the lowest MS tier
  • She has the lowest base AD of supports, excluding Lulu and Thresh
  • She has the 3 shortest ranged abilities in the entire support class, all of which are an entire 43% shorter than the 4th-shortest
  • She has the weakest and shortest-duration shield of all supports
  • Her passive is completely contradicted and hindered by having different CDs on her spells
  • Her ult is inferior in both CC and range to most other supports
  • She has the 3rd lowest base mana amongst supports, despite having extremely high mana costs
  • She has a spell that Riot intentionally chose to have no purpose in leveling past rank 1

I want you to stop intentionally ignoring facts that have been reiterated countless times. Although, I'm more than glad to keep posting them everywhere if only so more people see them.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

And yet despite all of that, she has a 51.6% win rate. So either she's strong in spite of all those things, her weaknesses are heavily exaggerated (I'm going with this one), or her strengths are heavily undervalued. You sound like those guys that try to make a champ sound OP by listing everything they do, only in reverse. Just 1 problem: The numbers don't agree with you, and they never have. You can bring up point after point about how much Sona sucks, but she continues to have success despite your protestations. If you're consistently having trouble making a 51.6% champion work for you, then the problem is you.

Miku Hime sama2 votes

Or maybe the winrates you worship are just an excuse to hide your prejudiced Sona hate... which you've already openly admitted to.

Of course, bigotry doesn't work on reason, so it's fine that my analysis of your personality doesn't make sense.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

I don't hate Sona. I hate people who continuously insist that she's terrible when all of the data we have blatantly disagrees with them. I don't hate Sona. I hate people like you that call balanced champions terrible over and over and until Riot finally caves and buffs them until they're OP. Elise Janna Rammus Ryze Sejuani Skarner Soraka Veigar Viktor Tristana Lux

But please, keep calling me a bigot. I'm sure you're only posting from a lvl 7 account because your main was banned anyway.

Miku Hime sama1 votes

...and now you have to resort to provocation because I've called you out on using propaganda to get your disinformation across.

I'm oft amazed at the lengths prejudice makes people take to justify their hate.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

You got me, I'm oppressing you and all Sona mains! Muwhahahahahahahahahahaha! You're the one that revived a thread that died a week ago. Get your persecution complex out of my face. Sona is fine and the numbers say so and have said so the entire year.

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dN9lm98t,comment-id=00050000000000000000000000000000000000020000,timestamp=2015-10-11T03:03:46.053+0000)

And yet despite all of that, she has a 51.6% win rate. So either she's strong in spite of all those things, her weaknesses are heavily exaggerated (I'm going with this one), or her strengths are heavily undervalued. You sound like those guys that try to make a champ sound OP by listing everything they do, only in reverse. Just 1 problem: The numbers don't agree with you, and they never have. You can bring up point after point about how much Sona sucks, but she continues to have success despite your protestations. If you're consistently having trouble making a 51.6% champion work for you, then the problem is you.

Just a note: Her win rate decreased over time (from about 52-53 ish) and her play rate decreased significantly to under 4%. I wouldn't consider a 51% win rate on a 3.8% play rate "hot". She's played less than nearly any decent support option at this point...

edit: And it's still decreasing...

Slamurai Jack1 votes

I wouldn't consider it terrible either, but that's what Sona mains are constantly trying to sell me. They would have you believe that Sona is the worst support in the entire game, and among the worst champions in League as a whole. I am not going to listen to someone tell me that their champion is complete shit at a 51.5% win rate while being told my champion Yasuo was balanced at a 42% win rate a year ago. Hell, some people told me he needed even more nerfs. You want to talk prejudice against a champion? That's true prejudice.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dN9lm98t,comment-id=0005000000000000000000000000000000000002000000010000,timestamp=2015-10-11T04:25:31.915+0000)

I wouldn't consider it terrible either, but that's what Sona mains are constantly trying to sell me. They would have you believe that Sona is the worst support in the entire game, and among the worst champions in League as a whole. I am not going to listen to someone tell me that their champion is complete shit at a 51.5% win rate while being told my champion Yasuo was balanced at a 42% win rate a year ago. Hell, some people told me he needed even more nerfs. You want to talk prejudice against a champion? That's true prejudice.

She isn't the worst in the game, but data shows that she's in one of the worst spots and is still decreasing in popularity, and her win rate is only "decent" because she has a few dedicated mains of her. In my personal opinion, supports that need buffs are Zyra, Sona, Taric (rework incoming), Nunu, Fid Sticks, Nami, Karma, and Zilean. Well, Karma needs to be tailored more to solo-laning than anything, but still. I include Nunu and Fiddle because they're completely LOST in the game atm. They need full-on reworks badly.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

{quoted}

She isn't the worst in the game, but data shows that she's in one of the worst spots

Sona Win Rate 51.6% 8 / 25

Zyra Win Rate 53.2% 2 / 25

What data? First time Sonas have a 50.2% win rate. As in they win over half the time their first game on a supposedly terrible champion in high elo. There is no data to support that Sona is weak, anywhere. Just the testimony of a bunch of Sona players who _definitely _ aren't biased.

chipndip13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dN9lm98t,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2015-10-03T08:42:38.925+0000)

It's not unjustified. Sona's been sitting at 52%+ win rate the entire season and I constantly have to hear about how terrible she is and that she's trash tier and that she needs enormous buffs to even be playable. Meanwhile, this community is clamoring to gut my main Yasuo for the second time for having the audacity to be anywhere near a 50% win rate. You guys are calling for massive buffs on a champion that's been at around 53% for the entire season while calling for guttings of champions like Thresh, Yasuo, and Lee Sin who can't even reach 50%. You guys are a bunch of babies. Oh, and keep permabanning Garen while Lux gets through bans every single game with a 55% win rate and 15% pick rate.

I'm trying not to reply to this thread since I'm more gathering opinion on the subject, and I would most likely be more biased to squishy supports since they're both out of the meta right now and what I mainly play, but I WILL say that I have rarely ever told someone or showed someone that I used Sona without them saying either "She's a shit champ" or "Play someone like Tahm/Leona/Blitz/Braum/Thresh/Morg/Janna/Annie". I rarely have anyone commend me for picking this champ now that I'm out of Silver. What's more is that I'm rarely contested for the pick either. But that's just me saying.

Besides, this is more about who you think would need support-oriented buffs, not making sure Sona players don't get a say.

Krinu1 votes

Hm. I can't speak for most of these, but I'll talk about the ones I do play.

Kayle Honestly, all she does is lane bully and push until six, at which point she serves as a gank counter / dive enabler for her carry. The issue with making her a stronger support is that it risks overpowering (or breaking) her as a fighter, which is her more generally accepted role. If I had to change something, though, I'd change up her Reckoning and Holy Fervor.

  • Holy Fervor: Stacks on Kayle instead of the target. Duration increased to 7 seconds. Effect remains unchanged.
  • Reckoning: Consumes all stacks of Holy Fervor and deals X magic damage and slows the target for Y seconds. For each stack consumed, damage is increased by A%, travel time of the projectile is decreased by 20%, the magnitude of the slow is increased by B%, and the target has its armor and magic resistance reduced by 3% for each stack of Holy Fervor on Kayle for 5 seconds. If five stacks were consumed, this ability triggers on-hit effects.

Basically, you could still use Reckoning as an opener to catch a fleeing foe, as a soft execute in a teamfight, or to help secure a kill for an ally during laning phase.

BRBGTGBOWFLEX1 votes

Anivia is pretty fine as she is-- changes may make mid unviable. Ashe is not meant to be a support and should not be buffed for that role. She is a utility ADC similar to Sivir with an engage/pick ultimate. Fiddlesticks support was nerfed specifically because it was too strong. This has harmed his jungle a lot. He should be focused as a jungler. Bard needs some love and possibly a rework. They said they had "the levers" to adjust Bard. They really don't. Heimer should not receive support buffs. His viable roles are elsewhere. Janna may need some changes. However, making tankiness and engage less of a priority is probably more important. Karma needs a huge rework. Her kit just doesn't work that well for either of her roles. Leona is fine. Lulu is fine-- she's now become a utility mid or top rather than a support. That's fine, her role in the game functions. Her kit may need to be reworked if the desire is to make her an actual support. Lux's role is mostly a control mage. She has edge-cases for support, but with her performance mid it's not really worth discussing. Orianna - see above. Morgana- Morg is fine and plays well with certain comps/against them. Nami is pretty much fine. Sort of forced out due to meta, but her basic kit is still good. Nunu he's just better off being recast as a top/jg. Sona feels underwhelming compared to other supports due to most of her power still feeling a bit invisible. She may need a rework because she doesn't feel as involved as she should. Raka probably needs slight nerfs. Syndra is an edge-case support. More clarity is needed vs her support or mid role. What does she really do that much better than Annie? Tahm is in a decent place at the moment. Might be better to make his jungle/top role more pronounced, since he's kind of more fun there. Thresh is fine. Maybe change the scaling on his ult slow. Zilean is obnoxious and toxic. They just reworked him, but his core problem of being a really reactive and unrewarding champion are still there. Zyra feels way too squishy early on-- maybe giving her something to bring to another laner helps. Currently she suffers from Heimers problems in that she takes CS and doesn't provide much to other laners.

Lugg1 votes

Supports are probably the best balanced class in the game right now. You have TONS of viable options right now.

Lux, Tahm, and Thresh need slight nerfs, but that's about it.

Dryditch1 votes

Zyra needs a little buff to her spitter range, and she'll be awesome again. Kayle doesn't do support-y things in my book, so she's out Generally Heimer can go fuck himself and needs to be reworked so his turrets aren't unkillable stations of death for champs who can't poke. Fiddle's a better jungler than support, but still brings plenty of utility.

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