Riot, how hard it is to balance Aatrox?

Rito Staff·Mar 8, 2017·40 votes·3,158 views

Is it his passive holding him back? Can you please remove it so he can have substancial power elsewhere?

About his heal, it is countered by:

Movement slow, attack speed slow , blind, hard cc, not attack moving properly, Grievous Wounds. And it only procs on 3rd hits. How exactly is that hard to balance? It screams: BUFF HIS FKIN HEAL

If the two toplaners decide to punch eachother to death then YES, it is a stat check. BUT IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE IF THE ENEMY MOVES HIS ASS. And Aatrox obviously should win stat checks (hint: DRAIN TANK)

In comparison we have Yasuo that has high mobility, builds Zeal items which grant movement speed, and has good defensive abilites. Plus the lifesteal makes him heal for 300HP~ every. single. f*cking. auto.

Aatrox doesn't have double crit. Doesn't have armor pen. Doesn't tank. Doesn't Drain-Tank. Doesn't have stickyness. And has a shitty CC.

I know for a fact that it's not the champions problem, it's you and your fckin shit meta made for flash based plays, for flash based moments. Just like your garbage lore, 0 depth. Full of flashy looks, and fleeting moments. what a garbage ass content.

79 Comments

KaiokoMar 8, 201710 votes

Yasuo has built in lifesteal? That's news to me lol.

CannabisOverlordMar 8, 201710 votes

He has build in double crit chance, which makes his heal better

RalanrMar 8, 20173 votes

He still needs to actually build the sustain though.

CannabisOverlordMar 8, 20178 votes

Yeah but it only cost 900 gold, whereas its 850 for executioners calling ( i think) to make one aatrox ability completely useless, not factoring in the extremely quick drain on bloodwell, so the passive may as well be useless 90% of the time

RalanrMar 8, 20174 votes

Well that's a problem with all sustain champions except maybe Warwick. It shuts them down so hard because it's pretty much all they bring to the table.

Aatrox needs to be less defined by his sustain imo.

MelledoneusMar 8, 20172 votes

Yasuo deals more damage with two crit items than any other champion in the game. That damage translates to stupid amounts of lifesteal.

RalanrMar 8, 20171 votes

Probably because he needs to build a bit more durable than regular marksmen since he's melee.

MelledoneusMar 8, 20172 votes

Sure, but he becomes more durable than actual drain tanks and the like because he refuses to die.

RalanrMar 8, 20171 votes

Because actual drain tanks are too reliant on their draining that they get destroyed by a cheap item while itemized drain tanks like Yasuo and Graves have no such failing because they can actually still function even without the sustain?

MelledoneusMar 8, 20172 votes

So you're telling me Yasuo can have more utility and drain tank than actual drain tanks.

I like this already.

LordGeovanniMar 9, 20171 votes

build a free sheild... i think not.... wait nvm he does item 3072 but he still has another free sheild

Rito StaffMar 8, 20172 votes

How a fed and skilled Yasuo sustains is Aatrox theme and fantasy - without any of the damage ofc. To be almost dieing but not quite and to heal back up easily.

Drain tanks should be focused to die, and worked around, not stat checked with. Aatrox hardly survives box fights top lane, if he can't 1v1 with damage, sustain or tankyness, then .. ?

then what the fuck. Something is seriously wrong, and it is just favouritism.

Asayake 5150glowMar 8, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Noat Amu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dMBVWi4E,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-08T16:13:01.875+0000)

How a fed and skilled sustains is theme and fantasy - without any of the damage ofc. To be almost dieing but not quite and to heal back up easily.

Drain tanks should be focused to die, and worked around, not stat checked with. Aatrox hardly survives box fights top lane, if he can't 1v1 with damage, sustain or tankyness, then .. ?

then what the fuck. Something is seriously wrong, and it is just favouritism.

They said they were scared of making him too impossible to kill (I believe, anyway), then they go give us Warwick who can heal for 132 health per auto when he's under 25% health, and has a huge Q (120% AD, 90% AP, +10% of enemy max health, seriously that's a ton of scalings) with a small cooldown (6 at all ranks), which heals him for 70% of the damage dealth, and then an attack speed buff nearly as good as Aatrox's full passive and his ult combined, with his W (although it's cooldown is ult level, still, one wonders why someone has an ult on a basic ability... 120 second cd at rank 1...), which is also permanent against anyone under 50% health.

WyrmbladeMar 9, 20171 votes

I think Warwick should have been the model Aatrox was based on. He hasn't been a big pain in the ass anywhere except low elo soloqueue where nobody knows what an "executioners calling" is

LordGeovanniMar 9, 20171 votes

Aatrox was hard to make work even without exuctioners calling in the game due to riot removing all the options for his main stat (attack speed) from fighter items and making his secondary stat (attack damage) super small on fighter items in return for long cooldown gimmick items.

Asayake 5150glowMar 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I think Warwick should have been the model Aatrox was based on. He hasn't been a big pain in the ass anywhere except low elo soloqueue where nobody knows what an "executioners calling" is

That's kinda my point - Warwick is what Aatrox could've been. They could've tweaked it minimally and called it the Aatrox rework.

LordGeovanniMar 9, 20171 votes

aatrox has to actually build ad and attack speed yasou building sustain means nothing when he outdamages you in lane to the point you cant even walk up to minions to heal and he has a sheild that you have to break before you damage him that is by no means small.

KaiokoMar 8, 20177 votes

{quoted}

He has build in double crit chance, which makes his heal better

Right but he still has to build lifesteal after he builds up his double crit so as a third item at best (4th if you count boots). Aatrox could just build it right away and get lifesteal on every auto as well lol.

CannabisOverlordMar 8, 20176 votes

Vampiric scepter is one back, but so is Executioners calling which for all intentions completely negates aatrox

KaiokoMar 8, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Vampiric scepter is one back, but so is Executioners calling which for all intentions completely negates aatrox

Which top laner builds executioner's?

Malicious MetalMar 8, 201715 votes

Those with half a brain cell who realize that they completely negate Aatrox's entire kit with ONE item.

sirwaterflesMar 9, 20172 votes

Dont give them ideas!!!!!

Sincerely, a low elo swainmain.

GULAG 4 UMar 8, 20172 votes

Yasuo doesn't build vamp scepter first back typically. Even if he did, he wouldn't get double ls because he doesn't have crit.

VreivaiMar 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

He has build in double crit chance, which makes his heal better

That's like saying giving a champion a higher base AD is a form of built in sustain.

ZT XperimentorMar 8, 20178 votes

Not to mention they already gutted his passive, again forcing a forgotten champion to rely on this painful to use 'window of power', when other champions have bonuses or abilities that outright remove their weaknesses.

53436278DEL1Mar 8, 20174 votes

and his W both damage and heal was gutted.. all for a better scaling q lmfao has if u used it for damage ... shameful. and his passive doesnt even increase his w damage

Tristanl0lMar 8, 20178 votes

New Aatrox is garbage.

Can't jungle, can't revive in a fight fast enough without having to use his ult to fill blood well, doesnt deal damage anymore because his E is physical, and I'm being forced to build attack speed to be relevant early game.

His passive shouldn't disappear when out of combat, not having that stupid Blood Rush ready on a jungle camp is terrible. The only thing that made him somewhat playable in the jungle was his virtually permanent attack speed steroid, which in turn gave him a lot of healing. His extremely high cooldowns mean he's 100% auto attack reliant, and without his old passive being on most of the time it's just way too slow. They shit on his clear, force me to build Bloodrazor. Building attack speed items on Aatrox is horrible, feels horrible, and doesn't reward you at all because he's a melee champion with no on hit abilities.

The only way he ever gets to use his passive mid/late game is if he Qs in to 5 people and presses R. I just played a game on him after not playing him for a couple months because it's near impossible to get S tokens for rank 7 because I was excited to see him get changed. I think I managed to revive twice that game, and the only reason I did is stated above. His ultimate is the only reliable source of filling his blood well, and if it's on cool down you're pretty much fucked. Personally, the ONLY things Aatrox needed was the 0 health costs, and the attack speed steroid on his passive not to be linked with his revive. Let Aatrox revive, and have the Blood Well stay full.

I used to love this champion.

Used to.

ElikainMar 8, 20178 votes

I can't believe that you made a "balance Aatrox" post, almost a day after the patch that gave him a bit of an overhaul. You can't possibly know if he's good or not because it takes a few days for people to get used to his new abilities.

Just like your garbage lore, 0 depth. Full of flashy looks, and fleeting moments. what a garbage ass content.

I guess you haven't read any new lore since it came out. Try Aurelion Sol's lore and you'll get the idea how much better than the old content it actually is.

Rito StaffMar 8, 20173 votes

I can't believe you said that without having checked if I main Aatrox or not. I'm level 7 with him, with 55% win-rate~ S5, 6 and 7. He didn't change that much for me to conclude he is still super bad.

This mini-rework purpose was not to take him out of the gutter but to make him less sh*t.

By the lore being shallow I mean that it's always branching out, but the roots never deepen. Always adding new stuff, without solidifyin what they already have. Sharjo does that better than them.

How long until you hear from Lucian again? They hinted he'd go after Senna I think (dont really remember right now)

ElikainMar 9, 20171 votes

By the lore being shallow I mean that it's always branching out, but the roots never deepen.

Riot expands the lore in both directions. "Deeping the roots" is a part of the League Universe project. That's still in beta, according to Riot. Which means that the format we see right now is definitely not final and the point of the Universe is to paint a clear picture of how the landscape of Runeterra looks like. You have things like Shurima that are explained through Nasus's, Renekton's, Sivir's, Xerath's and Taliyah's extensive lore, that also tell us a lot about what the champions are fighting for and what's their place in League.

I can't believe you said that without having checked if I main Aatrox or not.

I don't think this is important to the conversation at hand. From my perspective, Aatrox was changed quite a bit, even if that's not his actual rework. I'm not an Aatrox player though so i can't know this for sure but what i know for sure is that players (new or old) would need to get used to his "new" kit regardless.

LordGeovanniMar 9, 20171 votes

If you PLAYED Aatrox and had UNDERSTANDING of what you read when they released what they were changing there is no NEED to play it to know it got worse. if you take away damage from already bad abilities and take away healing away from an already gimped heal because you cant apply it often because all of the attack speed items for fighters magically disappeared and you take a ever present revive and make it situational on having to be built up is it really hard to see that things go worse. he also lost attack speed and is easily coutnered by one type of defense now. the only thing that got buffed was his slow long cooldown easy to dodge and easy to interupt q for damage.

ElikainMar 9, 20171 votes

His gameplay state right now is better than it used to be. This doesn't replace his rework but it lays down the groundwork for a future Class Update or something. If you're going to be biased, say so. You don't like his changes because the familiarity is gone. And you don't like it when you have to relearn something that you already knew.

LordGeovanniMar 9, 20171 votes

is it better than it used to be? can i build item 3153 item 3812 item 3072 item 3006 item 3065 and item 3742 or item 3143 with out getting instagibed (this is a melee carry build and what aatrox is supposed to be building and there isnt any other attack speed items he can build) or do i have to build item 3071 item 3748 item 3111 and or item 3068 with no variation like every other fighter because all of them need to have all of this to survive initial burst from spells and crit and autoattacks when engageing taking cc and all before they can start to do any damage. look at all that bonus ad that your spells scale with and poorly too not that they are even on a low enough cooldown to matter what little damage they do or or how easy his q s to interupt

ElikainMar 10, 20171 votes

The Playtest team did answer that question so you might want to have a crack at Aatrox from their angle. But you should still experiment yourself.

First:

{quoted}

I like bruiser builds on him. Hydra->Visage->Sterakk/Cleaver (depending on matchup) or an armor item felt pretty good in testing. The hard part when itemizing for Aatrox for me was finding a way to balance defensive stats, attack speed, and attack damage to provide some level of threat while also mitigating burst damage and sustained damage. It's hard to balance which stats you get and in which order you get them for a champ like Aatrox that wants them all.

Second:

{quoted}

He no longer is a melee sustain draintank that wins lane by pressing E repeatedly, which is a large step forward IMO

Yes, he might feel substantially weaker for the short term. But that's why we monitor champs shortly after large scale changes and buff/nerf/potentially even hotfix.

Third:

{quoted}

It's hard to itemize for that guy. He wants a whole lot of stats- AD/AS/MR/AR/HP/Lifesteal etc. I would recommend you first itemize for your matchup and lane (likely BotRK or Ravenous Hydra first item) followed by a defensive purchase like Spirit Visage, Ninja Tabi or Randuin's. Finding the right time to acquire each statline that he needs is likely going to vary from game to game depending on matchup and comp.

LordGeovanniMar 10, 20171 votes

they can say that but that exact build and statement feeds into every fighter at the moment that isnt riven. edit: if anyone at riot thinks that aatrox is gonna win lane pressing e they show both their inexperience both with and against aatrox if not top lane on the whole.

ElikainMar 10, 20171 votes

if anyone at riot thinks that aatrox is gonna win lane pressing e they show both their inexperience both with and against aatrox if not top lane on the whole.

Or it may be you that's playing him a certain way that works so you didn't try some different ways where you can be annoying and oppressive. When you're winning as Aatrox, the enemy can't really get close because you can always engage. However, finding yourself in an even matchup and playing cautiously, Aatrox can spam his E to weaken his opponent and farm from a distance, only to engage when he has a clear advantage. After he gets an advantage, it's hard to lose it in a 1v1.

I think that's what they were getting at. If you want to win, you're gonna have to fight, not poke from a distance. Riven and Jax at least fight you head on and so should Aatrox.

LordGeovanniMar 11, 20171 votes

Aatrox cant max e first or he wont be able to be healthy enough to stand in lane. and if he maxes w first he looses all damage threat and has to vacate lane anyway. . any figher that wins lane pushes the other out of lane fighters are about the engage and sustained damage why didnt the rules change for aatrox. Aatrox's e is hardly low enough cooldown to spam.

JoseraphMar 8, 20173 votes

Aatrox is dumpstered because back when he was released, his sustain was so strong that he could splitpush and always force the enemy team to confront him 1v2, leaving his team to 4v3. Aatrox will never be allowed to be good until his rework

QuephaMar 8, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Noat Amu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dMBVWi4E,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-08T15:58:52.733+0000)

And Aatrox obviously should win stat checks (hint: DRAIN TANK)

Being a drain tank actually implies he should not win stat checks because he has the option of sustaining away the damage between trades off of minions. A champion who doesn't have that option should win stat checks against drain tanks.

Rito StaffMar 8, 20171 votes

The drain-tank isn't called that because he heals off of minions -_- common. No champion has its role defined by minions. He's a drain-tank because he's super squishy but has self sustain so he is bursted easily, but at the same time has a (should have) great healing. And if that was so, then he'd only be valuable in laning phase where he can back off and heal on minions? na

I rather give up some power on lane sustain for power in teamfights and 1v1s seriously.

What makes him obnoxious is the fact that after trades he easily heals back up on minions (like Vlad did and they changed him). If anything half his heal on minions but make him stronger vs champions who wanna box him.

Because a tank takes sometime to die, but has no sustain so it does eventually die. The Drain tank imo should be the tank that doesn't die, given they are able to heal.

QuephaMar 8, 20173 votes

Seems like you just want Aatrox to win every fight with nothing the enemy can do against him. It's really annoying how a lot of Aatrox players don't realize that most of their feedback is like this when they cry about Riot not listening to their feedback.

FailogMar 8, 20171 votes

I was fine with him being easily EASILY shut down by any hard cc or attack speed reduction, and having now defensive stats or abilities other than the passive.

There was always something that you could do to shut down Aatrox. Now its just easier to shut him down with no redeeming benefits.

IGotScuttleCrabsMar 8, 20171 votes

Garen is a better drain tank lol. Back off a losing 1v1 fight for 12 seconds and come back full health and you'll eventually drain your enemy out of lane.

BabeisBaeMar 8, 20173 votes

The self heal on the W is critical to his kit, and yet is the massive problem that makes him impossible to balance. Personally looking at the kit, it would be nearly impossible to balance him in his current state, let alone his pre-rework state. He is either going to be amazing, or garbage because that ability to self heal alone means he either smashes lane or does nothing in lane.

In other words, they would have to remove the W self heal to have any chance of making him balanced.

THE RlVER KlNGMar 8, 20173 votes

You just said he's a drain tank in the 3rd paragraph and then that he isn't in the 5th

wat

Rito StaffMar 8, 20172 votes

He is a drain-tank... that doesn't work. Making him not a drain-tank at all. His fantasy is self sustaining tank, but he's weak.

NewGuy101Mar 9, 20173 votes

Just like your garbage lore, 0 depth. Full of flashy looks, and fleeting moments. what a garbage ass content.

I'm just confused as to why lore was brought up, like what? How did bringing up lore strengthen or contribute to your argument?

Since you believe they keep branching out without adding depth to characters, I will support your claim by providing a list official stories produced by Riot that, as I'm certain you'll agree, add zero depth to characters and Runeterra as a whole.

I for one see no flaws in your reasoning, as I can assure you that none of the following links develop what we know of any champion, event, or region.

TusutakiMar 8, 20172 votes

I think people are blowing this way out of proportion. He still effectively heals the same amount if he's below 50% assuming you max W first but the biggest upside is the removal of his blood price cost. And thats a big thing and here's why.

I dont know if many knew this but blood price's bonus damage never applied lifesteal unless you have Deaths Dance. Even before his update, Death's Dance barely at all offset the cost of Blood Price so it was a better idea to leave Blood Thirst on during fights. Now with Death's Dance, you get it's benefit in full.

I do agree about his E being physical hurts him quite a bit and I dont know if blood well's attack speed bonus will still be active after revive. He is harder to play but he now has more options for his build path. He no longer needs to build damage to heal. When I play him again im going to test out how effective he is with Deaths Dance, Rageblade, and the rest tank while keeping W on Blood Price.

Honestly, the only thing I would like to see is a defense steroid on his Ult. Take away Ult's damage and turn it into more defensive.

FailogMar 8, 20171 votes

Haha what? Show me your math. He does not effectively heal the same under 50% not even close.

TusutakiMar 8, 20173 votes

Was going to do it by scratch but found a post that explains it well.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/5y3dgq/74_vs_75_aatrox_changes_with_math_inside/