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My biggest concern about post-VGU Swain's kit

Malicious Metal··40 votes·11,460 views

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Currently Swain is a Battlemage with a Drain-tank playstyle similar to Vladimir and Mordekaiser, making me never really consider picking him up without knowing I could get the same package with one of the other HP casters.

Yet that playstyle is what most Swain mains seem to be attached to, being a Bird Demon that strolls into battle without giving two bothers about what's happening around them. Yet Riot seems bent on removing that aspect of Swain in favor of a more "Master tactician" identity.

Which makes me wonder how Swain is gonna remain "Swain" when his entire playstyle is going to be thrown out of the window. Just the visuals of a Bird Demon isn't going to cut it if he's going to be some squishy mage similar to Azir or Xerath.

So, how is this going to make Swain mains happy?

Not hating on it or anything, just wondering how this VGU is going to be able to cater to old mains and newer ones without completely alienating old players.

125 Comments

RiotReav330 votes

At what point in my blog did I specifically say that we plan to keep his Master Tactician Theme? I just said live Swain is torn between his gameplay identity and his thematic identity.

Paroe3 votes

{quoted}

At what point in my blog did I specifically say that we plan to keep his Master Tactician Theme? I just said live Swain is torn between his gameplay identity and his thematic identity.

I dont think you said it explicitly but it was heavily implied - riot is about "either or" right now; not compromises.

I can only hope that the rework is going to modernize the kit without doing what happened to malzahar.... I really do hope that swain will remain who he is but in a healthier state ignoring the fact swain was never nerfed until his 'rework' in the first place during the mage update.

Malicious Metal31 votes

It was somewhat implied in the way his "Drain-tank" and Battlemage identity seemed to be depicted as problematic aspects of his kit.

Confused thematics and gameplay elements always seem rather tricky too as it poses the question what's more important to a character's appeal. I usually take old Mordekaiser as an example as he looked like an actual Juggernaut but played like a squishy burst mage.

Swain's case is that his Master tactician fantasy is usually related to a "Behind the scenes" type of character who pulls the strings and orchestrates warfare from a safe distance whereas his current Kit wants him to charge recklessly into the enemy team.

Some people are rather attached to that kind of gameplay fantasy but I thoroughly agree with it not being something that "Swain" should be. It's just that the entire premise of this update seems to be trying to make "Bird Demon who'll eat your face" go hand in hand with "Master Tactician" as both don't seem to mix all that well.

RiotReav333 votes

While drain tanks can be problematic I think Swains gameplay identity is that of a Warlock rather then specifically a drain tank.

As for his theme if you read through the section about the goals for Swain you will see that we are much more interested in his theme as a the ruthless dictator of Noxus then that of a master tactician.

I kind of agree that the gameplay a master tactician would require would probably take Swain waaay to far from current Swain even by massive VGU standards.

Malicious Metal8 votes

Question: Does this mean post-VGU swain is also going to have a kickass new title?

Because let's be honest, the "Master Tactician" Doesn't really have the same OOMPH like his fellow other Noxians. "Hand of Noxus" and "Undead Juggernauts" do carry a lot more weight, don't they?

I Main Swain5 votes

i agree, especially considering the incredible grandeur of his lore, i mean he literally had superiors request to be demoted so they could join his ranks. thats a huge deal in general, but in Noxus, the most power hungry, weak-hating nation on earth, thats unheard of. "master tactician" is nice but it doesnt really totally fit imo

RiotReav321 votes

We usually update the titles of Champions with their VGU

dapositiveviking8 votes

"swain, the lord of death"

Aeszarck10 votes

{quoted}

"swain, the lord of death"

A few patches later

"Swain, the Master of Metal"

dapositiveviking4 votes

swain, the caw of noxus?

Shahamut2 votes

Dictators ARE master tacticians though... I mean, it takes a lot of planning and reading people to be a "non-dead" dictator. An art for manipulation, if you will.

That being said, Warlocks are known for being manipulative AND just straight up scary with their magic. So it could work out either way I think.

RiotReav311 votes

I agree that a ruthless dictator implies intelligence, cunning and the ability to think multiple steps ahead of your enemies, but I'm not sure I agree that explicitly implies a "Master Tactician"

Let's take Tywin Lannister from GoT or even Snow for Hunger Games. Both are ruthless leaders, they are intelligent, powerful, cunning and can outsmart there opposition yet I wouldn't describe either as a "Master Tactician."

There is a difference between a Master Tactician that sits in a tent commanding troops from a distance and a Ruthless, intelligent warlock with the power to rule a nation. I personally feel like the ladder will resonate with Swain players more then the former.

To be clear I am not saying this is the direction we are going with Swain, as we are still pretty early on him, just pointing out the 2 different directions we could take. I'm my next blog when we are further along I should be able to go into more details about which direction we take.

One thing to note is that Swain will be changing quite a bit as with most champions with multiple identities. I would compare his VGU to that of Urgot. His kit will be changing a lot as we need to make his gameplay/art/theme feel like a cohesive package but we will also try to keep as much of current Swain as we can to achieve our goals. There is no world in which we will make 100% of Swain players happy as different players attach to different parts of his confused identity and that is something we accepted going into this (as with all VGUs)

Doozku3 votes

I never played any of the Warcraft games but I watched the movies. One character that stood out to me was a guy named Gul'dan, who was the leader of the Horde. I think his theme would match Swains, but with less Orc and more Noxus.

Blitzidious2 votes

I have a question. Do you see anything problematic with his DoT? it's what attracted me to him in the first place. Although, it seems as if I'm in the minority when it comes to Swain's DoT. A lot of people are content with it going away, but personally, it'll take away a great deal of what I found appealing in him if it were. Of course, the opinion of one individual is far more insignificant than a larger group.

What are your thoughts on his DoT? Is there a possibility that you'll need to remove it?

Jmman2 votes

Do you think Swain and Fiddle can have cool interactions like Xayah Rakan . Swain being with Ravens and Fiddle with crows. (the pour cousin of the raven) There could be potential for something.

The Angriest Owl2 votes

I didn't know "Warlock" was a gameplay identity. Reav3 link me to the page that describes what a Warlock is and what they do.

AwesomeGuyDj2 votes

Magicks. More specifically witchcraft types, usually heavy emphasis on DoT. Also heals

AwesomeGuyDj3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dEKwsBAA,comment-id=000c0001,timestamp=2017-07-20T01:07:19.560+0000) Swain's case is that his Master tactician fantasy is usually related to a "Behind the scenes" type of character who pulls the strings and orchestrates warfare from a safe distance whereas his current Kit wants him to charge recklessly into the enemy team.

Just wanna point out, swains lore actually has it so that yes, he is a great tactician, but he's the one leading the charge at the front line aswell.

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

Thanks for bringing this up. Doesn't his lore start as something like "he came back to camp during a battle, popped his leg back into place, grabbed a cane and then went back to the battlefield and orchestrated the soldiers to victory"? Isn't that kind of bad ass?

AwesomeGuyDj2 votes

He came back to the infirmary. His leg was snapped in half. He had the doctor pop into the place, and despite heavy recommendations for magic treatment, he refused, took the cane. Later became a Noxian general despite the cane. Now he's leads his soldiers fighting on the front line.

sirwaterfles2 votes

I seem to recall a redpost that said that the (at that time) discussion/problem with swain and why he was up for vgu was because his lore vs gameplay problem and that the discussion was which side should be kept. He also said in that post that a tactician isnt someone that plays from the frontlines so when you said that he would be build from the ground up i assumed he would become the master tactician and be a rework ala sion instead of one ala warwick.

Spoofghoul5 votes

Why can't he have both

He could be a the master tactician and a demon bird,

He could swap forms similar to Nidalee for example, but keep it like it is now, with the mana gating and cool down This allows for more power at the cost of accessibility making it a bit different then what Nidalee or Jayce do

His Abilities would be different in demon bird form, it would be his ''carry form'' it could be juggernaut like.

His base form would be the master tactician

It's really simple to accomplish this feature, making a so called shot caller champion, give him an ability to target objectives or an enemy champion and allies would gain bonuses for attacking that target.

Like more movement towards the target in case of a champion, or more damage to neutral objectives, or taking less damage from them. Additionally Swain himself could gain some bonuses if allies attack the marked target like increased mana sustain so he can change back to bird form faster again.

Moving a lot of his damage potential over to demon bird form allows some free space for tactician abilities.

Obviously he would need some form of damage in base form to lane and fight stuff and farm etc.

Having the cool down between forms in addition to mana gating means he needs to assess the situation and choose carefully when to transform

This is a concept i'm working on which ill post sometime in the future, don't know when it's done, in the concepts & creations board

Critmaster Garen24 votes

i mean they do have a point.

walking into your enemy doesnt exactly scream master tactician. his character and gameplay are clashing quite a bit.

AwesomeGuyDj14 votes

Read his lore, he's the guy who walked into the doctors room with his fucking leg snapped in two, refusing magical treatment, and only requesting the cane, all while showing no emotion. Then becoming a general leader who walks on the front line assault, on a cane. I think it fits his character well.

SpecterVonBaren9 votes

Given that the team on him is the same team that worked on Urgot, he's probably going to lose that badass backstory and the limp that came with it.

AwesomeGuyDj4 votes

As i have said before Ripperoni Rest in Ravioli sweet bird man. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThquH5t0ow

Penns11 votes

Well its a full rework so.. its gonna be a new champ feelsbadman

AwesomeGuyDj4 votes

Ripperoni Rest in Ravioli bird man. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThquH5t0ow the perfect music for his funeral. (i REALLY hope they dont go a full galio on this.)

Sire Hippington6 votes

Given their track record, they probably ignore what the current playerbase wants and completely change his gameplay to fit the lore(like seju, though she still doesn't fit the lore any better-,-), or they say screw it and just give you a new champ with differnt lore/character and different gameplay like it happend to gallio...

LadyRenly5 votes

I rather enjoy Swain as he is,what a shame.

ModKnightsKemplar5 votes

That's honestly not what I read into their description. My highest mastery is on Swain, and I do want the Battle Mage fantasy, for sure. But they can include better tactics with that, too. I trust them; their recent track record is good.

We could speculate on all the ways they could do that, but I think all of them boil down to having a few skills that have a higher skill ceiling than his current kit. The fact his, Swain is ez pz to play (my opinion). He could have tactician flavor and still be a Battle Mage. That's the niche he OUGHT to have, so I think that's what they'll aim for.

Big Lincoln4 votes

might tie his sustain to doing more than pressing R and walking around people

maybe have it tied to his area control like his current Q and W, who knows.

Arakadia4 votes

Well Swain has always had tons more CC than Vlad so they could utilize that and some niche new tool.

Project omen4 votes

Thematically, I always saw Swain's ult as his last call. Like the spell he'd use when everything would go wrong so he'd just go "ah the hell with it" and transform. I really hope they keep his draintank playstyle.

Neokilljoy3 votes

I'm still waiting for a melee dps that's a lifesteal based monster like old Sion, but I know that's probably never gonna happen.

I'd actually be pretty sad for the Swain mains if Riot screws with the "demon that dives into the enemy team and wreaks total havoc" identity that Swain has now. But we'll have to see.

Ralanr2 votes

Rhaast?

WacingTheFind2 votes

Not exactly the same, since Rhaast heals on ability dmg, and old Sion had LS (autos only), also Rhaast is way healthier.

YumaS2Astral7 votes

{quoted}

I'm still waiting for a melee dps that's a lifesteal based monster like old Sion, but I know that's probably never gonna happen.

Aatrox

Neokilljoy1 votes

To be fair, a %6.5 missing hp heal doesn't quite compare to the %50 - %100 extra lifesteal Sion had for 20 seconds at a time.

Mister Support6 votes

And that, sir or madam, was quite an unhealthy mechanic due to its feast/famine nature.

Ralanr3 votes

We already have a tactician champion, Azir.

Swain should be the warlock.

Tiniest Turtle3 votes

Honestly Noxus is about strength so if he's the leader of noxus he should know how to just overpower/brute strength a fight down. I imagine him as a Gnar kinda character where he sets himself up as a cunning general so that he can go full bird and brute force them down the rest of the way. I'd love that duality of playing intelligently so that you can just say F$#@ it and BIRD EM TO DEATH. I just want him to stay a Raveny warock kinda guy.

i cant move wtf2 votes

Change whatever you need to about him Riot. He's the one of the most braindead champions in the game right now. Any change will be improvement. We trust you <3

AwesomeGuyDj4 votes

Atleast he requires more thought than champions like garen. He's a wall of stats. If he reaches you either 1. He has better stats and wins or 2. vice versa.

I Main Swain2 votes

i have similar concerns. ive been playing swain for 3 or 4 years now and ive known from when i first picked him up that he would eventually get a rework, his kit is just unhealthy in numerous ways. as excited as ive always been, ive always been worried that they would rework him into someone entirely different and id have wasted 6300 ip on changing my summoner name. i can roll with him having a different identity from drain bruiser but if he completely changes into an ENTIRELY different identity, idk if ill still hold the same interest in him tbh

YambrinZ1 votes

And? Poppy and Sion were changed so much they could have literally just been new champions.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0uaq3Aqq,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-07-15T07:11:44.427+0000)

Sad thing is, those turned out better, than the majority that alienated their player bases. Alistar Cassiopeia Evelynn Heimerdinger Jax Karma Kassadin Katarina Maokai Mordekaiser Sejuani Shen Sivir Skarner Sona Soraka Viktor Vladimir Xerath Zac Even worse, only the remaining veterans will remember their originals.

Aiko Umesawa6 votes

RIP old Karma and her fans. You will be missed...

Well by me anyway.

rtbf2256182411 votes

Because his ultimate is either A:Viable or B: Not viable (useless).

In the case of A, it takes no skill and turns Swain into an impossible-to-kill-mage-juggernaut. It's just stupidly easy for him to walk around and drain the life of everything around him with a relatively low mana cost.

Agomoto1 votes

{quoted}

Because his ultimate is either A:Viable or B: Not viable (useless).

In the case of A, it takes no skill and turns Swain into an impossible-to-kill-mage-juggernaut. It's just stupidly easy for him to walk around and drain the life of everything around him with a relatively low mana cost.

You obviously never played him consistently "relitive low manacost"?

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