An Actual Unpopular Opinion: CertainTy's champions are fine

Oakleaf Ranger·Aug 8, 2018·8 votes·1,431 views

Overtuned champion: plz nerf

Overtuned CertainTy champion: OMG remove this broken champion

I haven't really known how to feel about his champions until recently. I never believed they were fundamentally unfair or broken though. What I have concluded is that his champions tend to require a unique approach to play as and against to a certain extent. Which is why I think his champion's tend to get A LOT of hate for. Trying the same or a very similar approach you are used to, only for it to fail or backfire can understandable cause that effect.

But instead of trying to adapt your play style or acknowledging your own mistakes. More people tend to take the cop out and say that CertainTy's champions are unfair or busted.

19 Comments

SEKAIAug 8, 20185 votes

But instead of trying to adapt your play style or acknowledging your own mistakes. More people tend to take the cop out and say that CertainTy's champions are unfair or busted.

There is nothing to adapt your playstyle to when their opponent's champs are just fundamentally better and more overloaded than yours, as per the design of almost every single champ after Darius, their debut.

Unless you play the stuff from another "overloaded" designer who made shit like Ekko and Camille, there is no way to combat against a CertainlyT champ when they have good stats, because of how overloaded their kits are on a fundamental basis.

Overtunes are fixable by nerfing, there is no cure for overloading besides reworks. There is a reason why CertainlyT's champs are either reworked or in the process to be despite their relatively young age in comparison to the other ones more urgently needing reworks from being ancient.

abca98Aug 8, 20183 votes

{quoted}

There is nothing to adapt your playstyle to when their opponent's champs are just fundamentally better and more overloaded than yours, as per the design of almost every single champ after Darius, their debut.

Unless you play the stuff from another "overloaded" designer who made shit like Ekko and Camille, there is no way to combat against a CertainlyT champ when they have good stats, because of how overloaded their kits are on a fundamental basis.

Overtunes are fixable by nerfing, there is no cure for overloading besides reworks. There is a reason why CertainlyT's champs are either reworked or in the process to be despite their relatively young age in comparison to the other ones more urgently needing reworks.

If we take Yasuo for example. If I play Lux against him, I'm suddenly not playing League of legends anymore. I am playing Dodge the Tornado simulator and PvE farm until I reach lategame. Which, by the way, doesn't exist.

"But-but he pushes the wave with his abilities so he is vulnerable to ganks!" Yeah except the jungler is a random factor in many games. What if he picked a powerfarming champ? What if he camps a different lane and ignores you? Seriously, the best you can do when figthing Yasuo is "not die", not kill him.

"But... but... pick a counter!" Yeah honey, maybe I don't want to because I don't like Kayle Darius or whatever

SEKAIAug 8, 20184 votes

{quoted}

If we take for example. If I play against him, I'm suddenly not playing League of legends anymore. I am playing Dodge the Tornado simulator and PvE farm until I reach lategame. Which, by the way, doesn't exist.

"But-but he pushes the wave with his abilities so he is vulnerable to ganks!" Yeah except the jungler is a random factor in many games. What if he picked a powerfarming champ? What if he camps a different lane and ignores you? Seriously, the best you can do when figthing Yasuo is "not die", not kill him.

"But... but... pick a counter!" Yeah honey, maybe I don't want to because I don't like or whatever

It's funny how the very first line in the gameplay section of Yasuo's champion reveal development note claims that Yasuo is designed to be bad in early game but scales into a monster in late game.

Meanwhile, Yasuo is a monster in early game, and even more so in late game. That remains the case as long as he doesn't have trash stats and do like 0 damage.

I mean, who would've thought, that someone who has 0 CD, no resource management to worry about, have anti-poke shield on a non-existent CD, have spammable ranged attack of supreme zoning power that also comes with spammable waveclear, infinite in-lane mobility, innate double crits with a tradeoff that is in no way proportionate to the boon, and the troll wall, is actually a monster in early game and more so in late game with the introduction of the ulti that procs on everything and nullify the need for Yasuo to even land a single skill shot on almost no CD that also gives him AA steroids to screw with people with his double crit even more and also saves him from turret dives because Yasuo can't be punished for taking risks? What a shocker!

theChibiTinaAug 8, 20181 votes

Don't forget that Yasuo is melee so you can zone him off the minions with Lux E or even poke him with it while playing Dodge the Tornado simulator and PvE farm. ;)

SEKAIAug 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Don't forget that Yasuo is melee so you can zone him off the minions with Lux E or even poke him with it while playing Dodge the Tornado simulator and PvE farm. ;)

Fun fact: Yasuo has a 62.47 Lane Kill Rate vs Lux's 37.53% when they're sharing the same lane, according to Opgg.

I mean, what do we expect? Yasuo pokes just as hard as Lux, can nullify Lux's entire kit barring the ulti by placing his troll wall, can deny Lux's farm with his supreme in-lane mobility/zoning as well as for dodging Lux's attacks, has his constant passive shield that can nullify a great deal of the opponent's poke damage, has neither resource and also has shorter CDs than Lux all-around, and supreme zoning with his Q after 6 and the relatively reduced risk of diving due to his R for some reason puts him far away from the turrets as possible.

theChibiTinaAug 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Fun fact: Yasuo has a 62.47 Lane Kill Rate vs Lux's 37.53% when they're sharing the same lane, according to Opgg.

I mean, what do we expect? Yasuo pokes just as hard as Lux, can nullify Lux's entire kit barring the ulti by placing his troll wall, can deny Lux's farm with his supreme in-lane mobility/zoning as well as for dodging Lux's attacks, has his constant passive shield that can nullify a great deal of the opponent's poke damage, has neither resource and also has shorter CDs than Lux all-around, and supreme zoning with his Q after 6 and the relatively reduced risk of diving due to his R for some reason puts him far away from the turrets as possible.

Yeah. It's fun to play against someone who doesn't really know lux and make them look like an idiot when they windwall your shield though. lol. Heck, even some experienced players will windwall it because they saw projectile and windwalled before realizing it was just shield. It's always hilarious.

abca98Aug 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Don't forget that Yasuo is melee so you can zone him off the minions with Lux E or even poke him with it while playing Dodge the Tornado simulator and PvE farm. ;)

Don't forget Lux has to spend mana to do so, and that you can waveclear OR harass with E, not both things unless the other guy is in the middle of his own wave. Don't forget he can just tank it with his passive shield. And don't forget that he can also dodge it with his E ;)

KhristophorosAug 8, 20183 votes

If we pretend Zoe, Yasuo, and Kallista don't exist I can agree with you

D357R0Y3RAug 8, 20181 votes

i agree for kalista don't really care for yasuo or zoe they're not different from the champions that are in their subclasses

zoe oneshots you? oh that's new goddamnit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30jvgwW3Smc

nvm

Stars ShaperAug 8, 20182 votes

CT champions have very clear strenghts and weaknesses and are built so to reward a lot who capitalizes on their strenght and punish who doesn't capitalize on their weaknesses. This works for the enemies too, it's rewarding to exploit their weaknesses and makes the character unreliable if they don't capitalize their strenght.

SEKAIAug 8, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dALwA1AK,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-08-08T09:05:39.360+0000)

CT champions have very clear strenghts and weaknesses and are built so to reward a lot who capitalizes on their strenght and punish who doesn't capitalize on their weaknesses. This works for the enemies too, it's rewarding to exploit their weaknesses and makes the character unreliable if they don't capitalize their strenght.

CertainlyT champs is the exact opposite of having clear strength and weaknesses, in fact, most of their creations have non-existent windows for the opponent to retaliate, let alone actually having fundamental weakness for the opponents to chum on.

Requiring the player to be utterly braindead and/or misplay like no tomorrow (as CertainlyT champs are often the case due to being so overloaded one has to actually use more effort to lose than win if the champs have any good stats), is NOT a balance statement, and is the furthest from any notions of "clear strength and weaknesses".

Someone with actually clear strength and weakness is someone who has a FUNDAMENTAL weakness in which the champ can NOT overcome. CertainlyT champs, do NOT have such a thing more often than not. The fact CertainlyT champs often if not always have "catches" in which you can circumvent your own champs' weakness is mindblowingly insane in a roster and counter-based game, and is just utterly incompetent or even malicious design logic in general. And ofc, is the antithesis of actually having a clear strength and weakness module.

In terms of actually having real and clear strength and weaknesses, let's take a look.

Master Yi is extremely vulnerable in early game and he can't do anything to stop the opponent from invading his jungle without the team's help, and as such one of the most prominent strategy against Master Yi is to just pick early game junglers and rush to Yi's side and force him to tilt and be behind. And when if Yi manages to get fed from his early game handicap, he is very hard to stop, but not impossible because he still gets blown up as soon as you manage to hard-CC him. He also can not use his signature Alpha Strike more than once in a standard fight, unless he's extremely fed and can consistently score takedowns, and to add to this his kit is given exactly 0 CC; this emphasises further on his scaling curve and need to scale as early as possible, that as long as Yi doesn't somehow get the game rolling despite his vulnerable early game, he'd be finished all the same for not being able to contribute at all in fights. This is a very straightforward and clear lists of attributes and characteristics for a champion.
Or someone like Garen, who is a death machine in melee range and strong throughout most of the phases of the game stat-wise, but he is extremely kiteable with an extremely predictable attack pattern and gets destroyed early and then subsequently the entire game if you can put someone who can kite him from afar or hit-and-run at him to his lane, making him not able to start the rolling as he'd want to. Generally he has to get into later stages of the game to be of real threat on a global scale (assuming no insane early feed if you play against him properly), because that's the kinda stage in which kiting becomes irrelevant and he can force the fight with his initiative.

This isn't the say Yi and Garen can never be overpowered, because they or their items can still be overtuned from time to time, but it's a purely numerical problem easily fixed by nerfing, and it still doesn't change the simple fact that their kits have clear strengths and weaknesses.

The same can't be said about CertainlyT champs. They are always useful, they have tiny windows of retaliation, because they are overloaded with feature creeps from hell.

An apologist may say that CertainlyT is a designer that "makes champs fun to play as, but not fun to play against". But I however, would just say that CertainlyT's champs are fundamentally overpowered by being overloaded, that's why they are so fun to play as and extremely not so for the opponent, because in CertainlyT champs' case of having innate superiority over others makes you feel better and worse to the player and the opponent respectively by default. This isn't rocket science. It's high time that we need to address the hackery design "philosophy", or the complete lack thereof, from someone like CertainlyT.

Stars ShaperAug 8, 20181 votes

Master Yi is the exact definition of stat check, once you hit the mark you either mess up in 1vs5 or you win.

Yasuo can't do shit against bruisers that have a bit of reflexes and even some mages can ruin his life, Zoe loses to long range harass, Thresh is all about landing hooks.

I'm not denying that they can be frustrating but your statement and examples of who has counterplay is so wrong you should delete it.

SEKAIAug 8, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dALwA1AK,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-08-08T09:48:55.318+0000)

Master Yi is the exact definition of stat check, once you hit the mark you either mess up in 1vs5 or you win.

Yasuo can't do shit against bruisers that have a bit of reflexes and even some mages can ruin his life, Zoe loses to long range harass, Thresh is all about landing hooks.

I'm not denying that they can be frustrating but your statement and examples of who has counterplay is so wrong you should delete it.

Have you not considered the fact stat-checks are the shining examples of someone with clear strength and weaknesses?

If they don't have the power to check you down, they lose, and if they do, they win. And how to get there, is typically very straightforward, either they are strong early and falls off, or they are weak early and get scale good.

Ofc, it's a bit more complicated and faceted than that, but you get the idea. The clarity, and CLEAR powers and shortcomings of champs. That is the clear strength and weaknesses the early rosters of League all have (mostly anyway, but once more, you get the idea), not today's design logic especially with CertainlyT's idea that champs should have a bunch of soft and additional powers on the side, making them always useful regardless of circumstances and easily able to circumvent their weak phase with practically 0 downtime.

If you're a Yi, and you jump in with your Alpha Strike and realise you can't actually kill the opponent, you're dead.
If you're a Yasuo and you fly in with your ulti that you get from whoever's knockup, and realise that you can't actually kill the opponent, well, you can try just dash all the way out after you put a wall down behind you; often you'll escape that way.

Overloading champs with soft powers, making everyone spammy generalists, is what makes champs unfocused, and have actually unclear strength and weaknesses, because there is NO CERTAINLY ON WHAT THEY DEFINITIVELY CAN AND CAN NOT DO. The idea that someone seem to have that extremely specialised champs with an extremely focused design is the one that actually lacks clear strength and weaknesses is just baffling.

Sure, one can make the argument that super-specialists may be weak on the counterplay side due to the guarantee factors used to balance what they can and can not do, such as the aforementioned stat-checking being a prime examples of it. And I can agree to some extent. But it still doesn't change the simple fact that they have specialised focus precisely they have a clear list of what they CAN AND CAN NOT DO BY DEFAULT, that makes them having strong clarity in strength and weaknesses. It also doesn't change the fact rolling over your opponent because you have a more overloaded kit by default is just as bad in the "not counterplay" department, so it's not it really is that big of a change in pace.

I mean, if you think stat-checking is annoying, well overloading/feature-checking is just as obnoxious, if not more so, because somehow feature-checking is considered healthy when it's just as bad. Also, because at least stat-checking actually has good strength and weakness outlines as proven above, whereas feature-checking does NOT. So no matter how you look at it, feature-checking is worse.

Get it right, please.

Stars ShaperAug 8, 20181 votes

Stat checks isn't counterplay, is hoping that the player messes up and builds mana regen on Yi.

SEKAIAug 8, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dALwA1AK,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-08T10:08:44.594+0000)

Stat checks isn't counterplay, is hoping that the player messes up and builds mana regen on Yi.

Do you even read what I wrote?

Shukr4nAug 8, 20181 votes

tell me an example of overtuned champ and an example of certanty overtuned champ

then we discuss about differences

Oakleaf RangerAug 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

tell me an example of overtuned champ and an example of certanty overtuned champ

then we discuss about differences

The only champion I consider overtuned right now by him would be Zoe and to a lesser extent Darius. Including reworks then Graves as well.

Mundo (maybe not this patch but damn for quite a while now), xin, kindred, heimer (bot), Swain (bot), Jhin, talon, quinn. Maybe brand and jax.

AstorineAug 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Oakleaf Ranger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dALwA1AK,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-08-08T08:46:13.218+0000)

The only champion I consider overtuned right now by him would be Zoe and to a lesser extent Darius. Including reworks then Graves as well.

Mundo (maybe not this patch but damn for quite a while now), xin, kindred, heimer (bot), Swain (bot), Jhin, talon, quinn. Maybe brand and jax.

Your list is actually very similar to what i think, but i do have to insist that yasuo is a little unhealthy, but not just as a CertainlyT champ, yi is in a similar position and not made by the same guy.

Shukr4nAug 8, 20181 votes

i would have preferred a splitting iun that list.