Laning against Veigar

Votable Jester··3 votes·719 views

I am not asking for a nerf, nor am I ranting from losing to him (haven't even played in a few days).

Basically, when laning against Veigar there are a few unique things you need to keep in mind.

  1. He gets free AP from csing with his Q, so you have to get ahead in cs to effectively stay even. 2: He gets free AP from hitting you with any of his spells (even the stun ring), so if you don't gain something from the trade, he effectively won it. 3: He gets extra free AP from killing you, so trading kills works to his favor as well.

Now, I'm not saying the lane cannot be won. Generally, I just push it in quickly and try to build up leads in other lanes, but assassins can definitely build up a lead within the mid lane.

My real issue is that unless you are an assassin who can destroy Veigar without getting killed in the process, you will nearly always lose to him in any interaction or even lack of interaction you have. The AP he gains isn't precisely the problem with it, but rather the fact that he does gain permanent AP for that that I dislike. It makes it feel like there's no "right" way to deal with him.

I didn't come into this asking for a change to him, but I suppose in a way, I do want some changes for him. I'd like him to get maybe a little more AP from cannon minions and large monsters, but to get rid of the AP gains on hitting an enemy with any spell. This way, he would still be well rewarded for csing and killing, but not for mindless harass.

16 Comments

SwiftKitten882 votes

anyone with long range poke such asZiggs, Xerath orLux are all good vs him Morgana is also good because you can spellshield im sure there are others.

the issue is lategame he becomes unstoppable

Keepe1 votes

I agree at this point that he's a bit problematic. Mostly because of the Hitting Champion thing as well as changing his ult into essentially a Garen Ultimate. I'd suggest changing AP gains back to how they were (1 per small minion, 2 per large minion and 1-5 for kill/assist), and just making his Ultimate a burst, 1/1 AP ratio without any other interactions (IE More AP = Damages, though I do miss it, and the idiotic execute he has now.)

Mirkhail1 votes

He would need way more change, he would be worse than before the mini-rework, at least the enemy ap scaling ult was worth something, the 1/1 ratio ap ultimate without nothing else is pretty boring

Keepe1 votes

Frankly, I just wish they left him alone.

Mirkhail1 votes

Maybe now they won't nerf him when he have a positive win rate.

Keepe2 votes

Rito? NOT Nerfing something? This would be an episode of the Twilight Zone.

Votable Jester1 votes

Nobody has an opinion on this? I promise that I won't lash out, and will carefully read and consider whatever you say (so long as it's relevant).

Mirkhail1 votes

I think you are overestimatinverg the ap he get when trading early, if he hit an ability he only get one ap, in a normal early combo he could theorically get 3 ap but you can easily trade him back, most mage and assassin will actually outdamage him early, especially if they avoid his w. Since veigar loose early trade you can zone him, he will still try to farm with his q so he will always have low mana, both his q and w are pretty easy to avoid in lane. I think you shouldn't think too much about the ap he get from farming or poking, play as you would do against other weak early game mage, zone him and force him to use his w to farm. Before the recent changes veigar got ap only from farming with q and killing enemy champions, this made him passivly farm with q all of the early game, he would not interact, poke or fight until he was able to oneshot you, riot made this change to incentive interaction and make him healthier for the game.

Votable Jester1 votes

I know that the AP isn't massive from each one, and I know that there are plenty of ways to win the lane. My issue is the mental feeling that he gains more from most things than I do, so it feels like he wins in more situations than he should. In actual gameplay, he's fine.

I do have to argue that the change doesn't really give incentive for interaction aside from occasionally throwing a max range Q through a minion at you.

Mirkhail1 votes

Do you fell the same about nasus or sion? Maybe you simply don't like the idea of infinite scaling champion. Before this change veigar was actually "punished" when he used his q to poke because he could not longer use it to farm ap. Now instead he is incetives to at least try to play aggressive and someone who play aggressive is easyer to punish and generally more fun to play against.

Votable Jester1 votes

Nasus and Sion can be zoned, and they only get stacks from killing units. Veigar can cs and/or harass from medium range, and is rewarded whichever way he goes with it.

Nasus is "equally" punished for using his Q on champions early on as Veigar was.

LateCustomer1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d81mrEpd,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-25T00:16:49.569+0000)

Nasus and Sion can be zoned, and they only get stacks from killing units. Veigar can cs and/or harass from medium range, and is rewarded whichever way he goes with it.

Nasus is "equally" punished for using his Q on champions early on as Veigar was.

Veigar can be zoned if you're an assassin or have a long range mage (as someone stated earlier).

Mirkhail1 votes

Veigar can be zoned too, nasus can get stack by killing champion or towers for example, sion get stack from every minion he kill while veigar and nasus only with q.

Veigar can't really easily harass, his q is blocked by minion and he have to last hit then, most harass ability that i can't think of aren't blocked, if veigar actually use his q to harass instead of farming he would theoretically be wasting mana if he didn't get ap.

Nasus is a different story, nasus is melee and a raid boss so he is still forced to interact to farm his q, veigar instead don't have to interact to farm his q and if poking the enemy with q is consider a bad use of the ability, veigar would have no reason to interact and that's not healthy for the game.

Before the first rework veigar could still farm ap with q and his q was targeted, so instead of farming he used his q to only poke, if you can poke out the enemy you will scale anyway with items and later farm with q, so riot changed his q to make his early game farming more difficult with a potential higher reward and avoid extensive poking , so veigar instead of poking or interact he would farm all of the early with q as much as he could, there were no reason to fight or poke if he would loose potential ap and most trade. So riot reworked his ap farming again, now he can still farm with q but also poking is worth something, you probably wont be able to win early trade but you can still make some ap, and as i said before, an aggressive veigar is easier to punish and funnier to play against.

BloodyTompon1 votes

He isn't the best designed champion, but he is far from the worst. Considering that (and given that he is not statistically OP atm), I would not support any nerfs to him. He's also quite vulnerable to hard-isn counters, both in the form of champions and itemisation (banshee's).

The AP on harrass is to encourage Veigar to harrass. If he didn't have that passive he would be quite likely to farm and farm....and farm and farm and be non-interactive for a large portion of the game. He can still do this, but he sacrifices damage and makes a trade-off.

D3m37r11 votes

The last paragraph is basically asking riot to revert the viegar's mage update.

Crossette1 votes

Maybe the fact that he has a circle that you literally can't escape from without a blink and, if you do get stunned either by walking/dashing into the wall or failing your flash, he's going to 3 shot you basically no matter what your build is.

Full MR/Health build? That's why he has a item 3135

Really squishy? I don't think I need to explain that.

Honestly, they need to go back to pre-rework Veigar and cut the AP he gets from CSing in half. Or just leave it at one AP per. I'm just tired of getting one-shotted by a Veigar ult because he's been farming safely for 20 minutes and he has 500 AP with two items.

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