Will Riot work on "pseudo-assassins" in the assassin roster update?

Anonagon·Sep 13, 2016·24 votes·10,129 views

Assassins as a role are unusual because many champions classified as other roles can effectively build and function as assassins. They range from being truly assassins in everything but name, like Quinn, to suboptimal cheese builds, like assassin Jarvan, but its important to recognize that these builds exist and that some of these champions are rightfully considered assassins by the community.

While Riot has already settled on which assassin champion are receiving major reworks, they haven't said a lot on what champions are due for minor work. I'm wondering whether Riot will take a pass on champions who exist on the edge of the assassin class. While some "assassin-like" champions might need their more assassin-like qualities formalized, I'm hoping that Riot takes the opportunity to take champions who aren't thematically assassins and push them away from the assassin class. Some specific champions I hope they'll do this for are and , because these champions are visually heavily armored fighters.

121 Comments

RiotRiot ScruffySep 13, 201621 votes

Most likely none of those champs will be touched in the assassin update. J4, Panth, Aatrox, Diana etc are all prime candidates for the Diver (a fighter subclass) update.

RalanrSep 13, 20163 votes

Is that supposed to be in the midseason? I'm just asking because I was under the impression that it was still up in the air on whether vanguards or divers would be after assassins.

RiotRiot ScruffySep 13, 201612 votes

It's not set in stone yet. We know divers need work as well as vanguards so they're both strong options.

RalanrSep 13, 20164 votes

Oh good. I keep getting worried when people say divers are next.

I like knowing vanguards still have a chance.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 13, 20164 votes

{quoted}

It's not set in stone yet. We know divers need work as well as vanguards so they're both strong options.

If you guys can sneak in a buff/mini rework for these two poor sods in the meantime, Garen Nasus that would be great. They arguably have the shortest end of the juggy update right now.

Sad TyrantSep 14, 20161 votes

how about they Nerf Darius to Their level

Tychusfindlay919Sep 14, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sad Tyrant,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d6idim5Q,comment-id=00050000000100010000,timestamp=2016-09-14T00:35:47.048+0000)

how able they Nerf Darius to Their level

How about they buff these guys to darius's healthy level of viability (nothing in Darius's stats suggest that he's broken).

Sad TyrantSep 14, 20161 votes

He may be Viable, but his stats are too strong, free armour pen, Free 200 bonus Attack damage, huge base AD, Huge armour. I reckon they should switch Shen and His Base stats around. He does way too much damage for what he builds and he gets unkillable and that's before his heal. That's unhealthy. he also makes it Impossible to lane if you are a melee, what's healthy about an ungodly ability to zone the fuck out of your opponent. The slows make it impossible to get away or trade. you need 2 - 3 people to kill him on the average of games, two with lots of Peel and are willing to die and one to do damage. so allin all an unhealthy champion who is good all game every game unless they are playing like complete shit or trolling

Unless you are talking about win rate and Pick rate which don't really mean anything

General TherittSep 14, 20161 votes

Well, that's why you play smart and ban him if you have the chance if you are going to play someone he counters e.g. Garen. Priority picks is how I see it. See if they reveal their top laner as Darius, then pick a corresponding top laner to counter Darius out. Gnar is EXTREMELY effective against Darius, as he's ranged, can do % HP damage, and CC him away from a team or lock him down. Teemo , because blind + E + liandry's at full HP makes a darius cry. Or run a tank that has viability through CC. Malphite , because while weak against Darius, is still a late-game powerhouse with his ult. Gragas / Zac because their simple kits provide a lot to the table in terms of heals and CC, and both deal magic damage, something Darius can't full optimize against. Or play the even more painful top laner which even Darius can't contest: Illaoi , or the CC counterpart: Mister You-Are-Not-Allowed-To-Move-Okay Nautilus

oh, and something about AurelionSol Ekko still being good or something.

Sad TyrantSep 14, 20161 votes

AH, but he counters the fuck outta Nautilus. and he can easily itemize against Gragy and Zac, Straight in Spirit Visage and Merc treads. BC, DMP Steraks and you cannot run

General TherittSep 14, 20161 votes

Like I said, he can counter them, but he can't truly contest them. Zac, Gragas, and Naut all bring something Darius can't bring and aid his team in: Initiation. I mean, Darius does have his pulls, but it hardly counts. Even with merc treads and spirit visage (which is certainly not enough to stop Zac or gragas from doing some pretty solid damage) he can't totally outheal and survive a ton of CC. If you don't want to DIE to darius, out-sustain him. Its why you pick Gragas/Zac. their passive promote quick spam in a trade or setup where they can recover. and the reason I suggest naut is because while Darius DOES counter him laning phase, in mid-late game Darius doesn't matter if he can't get to his target. Darius is unbelievably slow, and merc treads cant reduce enough CC from naut, Zac, or grag, being easily peeled away. Winning laning phase is just PART of countering a character. what the character can do later on is also extremely valuable. I will say he counters Naut really hard, as does malphite, but both character have CC. Reliability. Darius doesn't. He has amazing stats, yes, but not RELIABILITY. You can't guarantee Darius will win lane phase against someone he counters, and Darius is all about that lead in lane and true damage finish, so if he's denied either of those, or dramatically slowed to reaching his pinnacle, he's a barely average top lane damage soaking tank.

Reliability (CC, natural tankiness, generally good even without damage) > Pure Stats. Darius is just that. Basically pure stats. Darius NEEDS his damage to be good. a lot of smart tanks don't. I can see WHY you'd want to pick him, but in all honesty he's so open to being kited or countered or out-sustained by his lane opponent if they have a semblance of a brain cell.

warpenguin555Sep 13, 20162 votes

Question. If Rengar's update doesnt hit the mark or needs some more work, would he be available to receive more changes in the diver update?

Critmaster GarenSep 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

It's not set in stone yet. We know divers need work as well as vanguards so they're both strong options.

which vanguards specifically need work?

because on top of my head, i dont know about specific champions of that class who have serious issues with their kits. at least not as badly as some of the divers like aatrox.

dapositivevikingSep 13, 20164 votes

they probably want to differentiate between gragas and sub optimal ice boar gragas

RiotRiot ScruffySep 14, 20166 votes

Mostly this - theres a bunch of champs that step on each other like grag, sej, amumu, malph, zac etc.

(this is an oversimplification but) They all have AOE initiation and CC so they can be interchangeable based on who's numbers are better.

In general it would be about making them all bring something special to the team game if we wanted to tackle that class.

Sad TyrantSep 14, 20161 votes

Pls don't do Zac

elon wątrobaSep 14, 20163 votes

Zac is unique enough, i hope they will change mumu/seju

Chromatic EagleSep 14, 20161 votes

Zac may get some small changes, while the others might gain larger updates.

GoosetardSep 14, 20161 votes

Aaaaaaaack

This reasoning is killing me and it's resulting in some changes that I don't think are good for the game.

I think it should be just fine for overlap between champions, for example, between artillery mages. What should differentiate them is not that "each one has a unique strategic reason to be picked," but subtle differences between them and the synergy of those differences with the teamcomp.

It's ok for Lux, Ziggs, Xerath, and Vel'Koz to overlap. You don't have to do weird Vel'Koz reworks that Riot later admits "didn't quite hit the mark," because they each work better in different compositions. Xerath delivers damage more safely thank Vel'Koz, for example. Lux has better pick potential than the others. Ziggs has global wave control and can stall better than the others, etc. Those aren't giant attractive "OMG HE'S TEH TRUE DMG MAGE FOR WHEN UR DMGS NEED TO BE TRUE-ER" differentiations, but they're still extremely valid.

DCYOUNG888Sep 14, 20161 votes

Will riot also look back at champions that have recently been in a roster rework (e.g. Mordekaiser, Skarner, Quinn, Corki, Brand, etc.) and try to change them? A lot of the champs that have been roster reworked have been a success, but other champs may not have had the same benefits from the roster rework.

RogueWillSep 14, 20165 votes

The sad feeling when one of your favorite champions is just a downgraded version from other champion Sejuani ..... I want a buff

AnonagonSep 13, 20165 votes

While I agree that all of those champions are Divers and not Assassins, I believe that the Assassin update would be an ideal time to go through and make those champions less Assassin-ish. (Higher base defensive stats, lower ratios? or perhaps lower damage but lower cooldowns?)

RiotRiot ScruffySep 13, 201612 votes

Yea, we could definitely do some work on them, but we are going to spend time exploring small changes to the other assassins that aren't getting work - fizz, shaco, etc.

AnonagonSep 13, 20166 votes

Right. Definitely don't work on them at the expense of changes to actual assassins. Just, if you have time left over, look into small numbers changes to nudge them towards tankier builds.

DarkRitualSep 13, 20164 votes

Want them to build tankier, so lowering their defensive stats, right? Shen

MelledoneusSep 13, 20165 votes

Lol they nerfed Shen because they wanted him to build damage.

DarkRitualSep 13, 20163 votes

His rework as a "tanky ninja" saw him with among the LOWEST defensive stats in the WHOLE champion roster.

MelledoneusSep 13, 20164 votes

So we can call it a success, then.

######A success of destroying my favorite champion.

GULAG 4 USep 13, 20162 votes

Malzahar and mordekaiser mains would like to have a word with you.

DarkRitualSep 13, 20162 votes

Karma mains aren't exactly happy either.

GULAG 4 USep 13, 20161 votes

Forgot, my bad.

BoundaryBreakerSep 14, 20161 votes

Is this the creation of the "WTF is This Rework" Club?

GULAG 4 USep 14, 20161 votes

Prolly, but I do enjoy new morde. I do know most morde mains still hate certainlyt's reowkr.

Sexy Jack RabbitSep 15, 20161 votes

Tbh I think most Mains dislike CertainlyT to begin with.

EROTIC RAID BOSSSep 14, 20161 votes

malzahar might still be an annoying shove lane champ but he's also better designed in other ways- better realization of ramping up damage over time instead of just using his ult to assassinate people for example

GULAG 4 USep 14, 20161 votes

I think he became more cancerous but thats subjective

McsquzzyOct 3, 20161 votes

I think his minions spawn mechanic (minions first auto on champ/large jungle) and rylais slow for minions is cancerous since failure to wipe them out when engaging leads to a lot of damage with little input, but a Dot oriented champ will feel like that

XxxLumberJackxxXSep 13, 20161 votes

I have no idea why you think diana and jarvan have to be tanks.

AnonagonSep 13, 20162 votes

... I never said either of them had to be tanks? I used the word tankier. As in, more tanky. As in, bruiser builds, not glass cannon builds.

TequilaZombieSep 13, 20162 votes

Any info on what will happen to Shaco?

Is he finally getting some love and possible bug fixes (if only my box wouldn't steal my turret kills)? Is he getting gutted with changes to stealth? Is his clone going to be useful after the real Shaco dies?

Sad TyrantSep 14, 20161 votes

Make sure you change Fizz's W

TalinisSep 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sad Tyrant,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d6idim5Q,comment-id=0005000100000003,timestamp=2016-09-14T00:33:11.105+0000)

Make sure you change Fizz's W

You can't really change Fizz's W besides the % missing health and rolling it onto something else because of how fizz's kit is. It relies on multiple autos. His Q is very weak on it's own (.35 ap only) and relies on W, lich, R bonus and other multipliers to make it useful in the least. Q, E and R can all be dodged and E and R have longer delayed damage which gives plenty of time to be shielded/healed and zhonya'd. Q is not enough to kill on it's own due to not wanting 1 shots and being nerfed to the point it can't unless fed and you build zero MR.

When reflecting on the above, you have to keep in mind that Fizz doesn't have a normal ability that is ranged. He essentially has to 100 - 0 unlike many other assassins who can poke down before the kill. Every assassin has some kind of normal range ability that can be used for poke or catch besides Eve and Fizz and Eve has a spammable spell with Q. Khazix: W, Ekko: Q, Katarina: Q, Leblanc is almost fully range, Zed: shadow and Q, Talon: Rake, Akali: Q, Kassadin: Q, Rengar: Bola, Shaco: Q. The ones that also have weak range also have VERY spammable abilties (Eve, Kha, Akali )or strong autos (Zed, Talon, Rengar, Shaco). In light of that, Fizz also has the LONGEST BASE CDS of every champion in the game who relies on abilities to do damage: 10, 10, 18. He either needs a DRASTICALLY altered kit or W would need to be changed to a fully ranged ability such as throwing trident or to a smaller very low cd damage ability with sustain/shield attached which does not feel right on what his kit is trying to do.

I'm sorry but on a champion who has to often use both abilities to get into the back line (enemy flash, gap open ETC) he often only has ONE (either E or Q to do damage) R (ALL OF WHICH CAN BE DODGED) and THEN AUTOS, unless you want to add another burst ability on a LOW CD (which riot is trying to get away from so assassins don't instantly kill and will just make fizz burstier) it will not happen.

Sad TyrantSep 14, 20161 votes

The Main problem Is Missing % health

What I reckon could be cool, Cause i really don't play fizz (The above comment was about me dying by the last tic of Fizz W 2 seconds later after i killed him). Move the missing health part of his kit to his R, Taking some base damage from it and then add some scaling onto the Q. Move the slow from E to W therefore allow it to have its ridiculous CD for what it does. Boost the Base damage and Scaling of W a little or Add Current percent health maybe?.

If you can't tell I think he needs a rearrangement of his Base damages and scalings.

On a Side note you are only considering AD Shaco and Shaco's Q is not spammable 7 seconds 40% cdr and his E is on a 5 second cd.

TalinisSep 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sad Tyrant,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d6idim5Q,comment-id=000500010000000300000000,timestamp=2016-09-14T07:40:41.794+0000)

The Main problem Is Missing % health

What I reckon could be cool, Cause i really don't play fizz (The above comment was about me dying by the last tic of Fizz W 2 seconds later after i killed him). Move the missing health part of his kit to his R, Taking some base damage from it and then add some scaling onto the Q. Move the slow from E to W therefore allow it to have its ridiculous CD for what it does. Boost the Base damage and Scaling of W a little or Add Current percent health maybe?.

If you can't tell I think he needs a rearrangement of his Base damages and scalings.

On a Side note you are only considering AD Shaco and Shaco's Q is not spammable 7 seconds 40% cdr and his E is on a 5 second cd.

I did mean AD shaco and I never said spammable, I said strong autos which AD shaco has and he does have a ranged slow/poke on a normal ability. %missing health on fizz's ult would help make him less feast/famine and make him so he isn't the most useless champion in the game besides maybe shaco when behind such as if his R did a large amount of % missing on hit but did less base. Fizz W should otherwise remain the same, it allows the most build diversity and keeps the whole kit cohesive and playable.

The rest of his kit is overall mediocre. His E has all the power in the dodge as the spell is otherwise very outclassed compared to what other champions get. You compare it to a Leblanc W which not only does about the same AOE damage but is a gap open and close in the SAME CD and has a larger distance covered. Leblanc's is an instant blink so it essentially is the same thing as Fizz dodge. The difference is fizz is still there and in danger and dodges the shot while leblanc ports instantly away. Oh, did I mention she can waveclear safely with that instant port back?? Saying Trickster has a ridiculous cd is laughable. It honestly should be lower because it is a 100% absolute essential skill for him to even function. He's not an akali with a 800 yard triple dash with resets (his is 400 and 550 on Q), Leblanc double port and instant blink away, Zed shadow which doubles as a poke and port away with R, kassadin R which has a RID CD and higher range, kha with huge jump and reset, same with katarina and resets. Among assassins his mobility is actually very average, with his worst in class run speed, higher than average CDS among his class and average gap close/open range in class. (Riot says his low run speed is to rely on his spells, while a fully ranged, more mobile LB has higher MS LOL).

His Q is a worse version of Irelia's. Dodgeable, no reset and slower. The AP ratio by itself is horrid and relies on W's AP ratio to make it decent and lichbane, nashor and R to make it deadly. R's delay on the spell, and being skill shot dependent means that besides the numbers and everything it does, it's actually pretty mediocre as it doesn't usually do damage as the tank absorbs it or it is zhonya'd by APC and it's hard to hit ADCS and make use of it hitting with the positioning, self peel and team peeling they get.

Riot doesn't understand why people don't play him AP mid and it's because he is absolute trash in lane as an AP assassin and every change makes it worse. It is 100% evident when watching any pro playing him as AP (they don't anymore besides westdoor as he's not really viable) as the casters constantly praise the player when they are ONLY 20 CS behind their ranged lane opponent while Fizz is a champion who needs to be ahead (extreme feast or famine champion). Everyone complains Fizz has early game strength to 100% - 0% (remember FIZZ HAS NO RANGE to poke, he has to expose himself to enemy ganks and use half his mana pool to threaten). He needs that 100% threat to function period in lane. Without it, they bully all day without fear and fizz's absolute atrocious lane tools and horrible melee AP itemization mean he will lose lane.

They should make Fizz a jungler assassin. He is almost already there. Just make the passive apply to monsters, and E should do bonus damage vs monsters .

Sad TyrantSep 14, 20161 votes

LB is getting changes, Hopefully for the better.

Almost complete Immunity every 6 - 5.5 (with Mastery) Seconds, plus slow and large damage is fucking ridiculous, I'm not saying it is not Essential, if they removed the slow from it and moved some of the damage elsewhere on his kit, it could have a lower CD.

Iike i said before, the damages and Scalings need to be rearranged on fizz

And Its is kinda like Shen now, All melee, EXTREMELY FUCKING FRUSTRATING

Sexy Jack RabbitSep 15, 20161 votes

My concern with this Assassin Update is the fact that Fizz is not being worked on. As much as Resources are an issue, simply because he cannot be fit into a major update, does that mean that gets retain the unhealthy aspects of his kit? As much as he is not as bad an offender as Katarina or Rengar, he is still a very big issue in regards to being an Assassin. I don't quite understand the point in Updating 4 Champions into making them no longer problematic and leaving one to remain problematic, and as much as it is said that he will receive "changes", something along the lines of Number changes will not be enough to fix what is wrong with the champion. He needs adjustments such a clearer animations for the player themself and a much clear indicator on his W for the enemy, which atm proves a very unbalanced mechanic for Fizz. Does this mean that since he will only be receiving 'Minor' changes, he is still going to remain the same problematic champion in the end?

ZaNJeTsUSep 13, 20161 votes

Does it make sense to you, to leave a champ like Aatrox without any buffs until you decide to do that diver class update, u didnt buffed him since his release, and right now he sucks and can't compete against any champion in top lane, and even in team fights his effect in team fights right now is 0%, if you continue to ignore this champ more and more, the players who loved him and mained him, will start leaving the game due to your continuance ignorance about it.....

GayFluffyUnicornSep 14, 20162 votes

Man i really feel for aatrox mains. I immediately bought him with justicar skin. I fell in love with his lore immediately and his playstylebut then he just got outcrowded so hard by other top choices that it made no sense playing him. Tried jungle with him a few times but oh well. So i can only feel the pain for you aatrox mains... especially since my favorite champion also received a straight gutting this season

ZaNJeTsUSep 14, 20161 votes

The main problem is from the continuous ignorance about Aatrox from Riot, they are avoiding every comment or thread about him , and thats what really sucks, and in season 6 especially at the start of it every champ I mained in season 5 got fucked, I hope season 7 some of the champs I mained will survive, not like what has happened to me in this season

OleandervineSep 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Most likely none of those champs will be touched in the assassin update. J4, Panth, Aatrox, Diana etc are all prime candidates for the Diver (a fighter subclass) update.

When you guys hit the Diver update, could you NOT do Pantheon? He needs a lot more love than a simple class update. He has waffle feet and compared to the other Targon champions, he just looks and feels out of place.