The "Carry" in bot lane shouldn't always be a ranged Marksman

Malicious Metal·Jan 18, 2017·26 votes·2,528 views

The thing is, with current XP share the only class able to thrive off that XP are those who only need gold, which usually means ADC's. I always thought Bot lane was more of a carry lane that gets a support to help them overcome their weak early game but with current marksmen not even being that weak early and other classes invading bot I'd prefer seeing Riot actively encourage this rather than just outright destroy the opportunity to increase bot lane variety.

A lot of Marksmen can already solo lane, opening some really cool team comps and if we get the items/system changes needed to support Mage/Bruisers/Assassins bot lane it could be really interesting to see League evolve beyond that MarksmenXSupport bot lane meta we've had for years.

63 Comments

RexSaurJan 18, 20173 votes

"A lot of marksman can already solo lane", no they cant.

Literally only very few can, the other ones are all only able to be playable bot lane with a support.

I know you and this whole forum wants adcs to not exist anymore, but they will regardless you liking or not.

Glory ln DeathJan 18, 20178 votes

Corki, Ezreal, Kindred, Graves, Quinn, Gnar, Jayce, Teemo, Kennen, Twisted Fate, Urgot, Twitch etc.

All primary or secondary marksmen who are frequently or primarily played outside of bot lane.

jinxedchefJan 18, 20171 votes

Jayce, Teemo, Kennen, TF, Gnar are not viable marksmen they just happen to be ranged. Their power doesn't come from AAs but from their spells. Might as well call Ryze or Annie a marksmen. Corki was messed up by the package and passive changes, so now he isn't really that good bot and is back in mid. But he like Graves has always been an odd type marksman in that they are caster ADCs. Quinn has always been awful bot. Kindred was designed to be in the jungle and isn't viable bot.

So really, the only true bot lane marksmen that are viable out of bot lane is Corki and Graves and neither is that good in bot anymore.

Glory ln DeathJan 18, 20175 votes

primary or secondary marksmen

All the listed champions are considered marksmen, either as their primary or secondary subclass, by Riot.

The argument was that marksmen aren't viable outside of bot lane, which is untrue. There are many marksmen that are frequently played in other lanes or in the jungle. So, really, the only thing that can be said is that a certain portion of marksmen aren't viable outside of bot lane.

Even if we go along with the statement that non-motorized lane marksmen aren't real marksmen, the argument can be applied to pretty much any class:

Barely any assassins are viable outside of mid lane, so letting mages be viable there is unfair to assassins.
Barely any juggernauts are viable outside of top lane, so letting skirmishers and divers do well there is unfair to juggernauts.
Lee Sin isn't really viable anywhere but the jungle, so letting other junglers succeed there is unfair to him.

The bot lane carry position needs more diversity. Just like mages being viable in mid lane doesn't remove assassins from mid lane, neither will allowing other classes besides marksman into the bot carry position remove marksmen from the bot lane. It will just mean more interesting match-ups and games.

jinxedchefJan 18, 20172 votes

All of them are "labeled" marksmen. The whole reason Riot switched to the "marksmen" name from ADC is that they didn't have enough ADC(only about 15 out of 130 champs) for 1 out of 5 positions. Calling every other ranged champ a "marksmen" is just a fix they tried to use.

In reality as the term should be used the champs I pointed out are not really ADCs. In fact if you use the definition from Riot _"Ranged champions that focus on dealing high damage from a distance. They build items to enhance their attack damage and speed." _ You can see clearly how champs like Gnar, Tf, Teemo, Kennen don't fit into that statement.

The champs you try to point out as champs that can play outside of bot lane are champs that don't do the things that a bot lane ADC champ does. For example they often build a defensive item that they wouldn't build if they were in lane with a support's protection. So they aren't even a good example.

Anti-meta hipsters want something different(change for sake of change), but being different doesn't make it useful.

Sylas Dr3gb0urn3Jan 19, 20175 votes

{quoted}

All of them are "labeled" marksmen. The whole reason Riot switched to the "marksmen" name from ADC is that they didn't have enough ADC(only about 15 out of 130 champs) for 1 out of 5 positions. Calling every other ranged champ a "marksmen" is just a fix they tried to use.

In reality as the term should be used the champs I pointed out are not really ADCs. In fact if you use the definition from Riot _"Ranged champions that focus on dealing high damage from a distance. They build items to enhance their attack damage and speed." _ You can see clearly how champs like Gnar, Tf, Teemo, Kennen don't fit into that statement.

The champs you try to point out as champs that can play outside of bot lane are champs that don't do the things that a bot lane ADC champ does. For example they often build a defensive item that they wouldn't build if they were in lane with a support's protection. So they aren't even a good example.

Anti-meta hipsters want something different(change for sake of change), but being different doesn't make it useful.

I have been playing since Riot released League... Marksman were NEVER labeled ADC by Riot. Therefore, they never Switched anything... Just want to make that clear. ADC means ATTACK DAMAGE CARRY... In season one Fiora was considered and ADC. The term ADC evolved INTO marksmen by the players, but Fiora is STILL TECHNICALLY an ADC. So is Zed, Talon, and any other ATTACK DAMAGE based champion. ADC is not even RECOGNIZED as a real thing by RIOT in class breakdown for this very reason. Marksmen are Marksmen, Assassins are Assassins, Fighters are Fighters, But all three can be ADC.

(This ADC=Marksmen thing, has been a pet peeve of mine since it started changing, because some of you new folk simply have no idea the amount of chaos it used to cause when a FIORA called ADC and went top, and you then proceeded to pick an ASHE for bot lane... The Fiora in those days would LITERALLY rage at you the entire game for doing so, for STEALING her role.)

5000000000000000Jan 19, 20175 votes

THANK YOU

ADC: Attack Damage Carry--does a lot of physical damage Marksman: most of the damage comes from autoattacks

That's why Kayle, Teemo, and Azir are considered Marksmen even though they're (usually) built to do magic damage.

Sylas Dr3gb0urn3Jan 19, 20173 votes

Don't forget Kennen.

jinxedchefJan 19, 20171 votes

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about and I don't have the crayons or the time to try to explain it to either of you.

5000000000000000Jan 19, 20175 votes

Well, I have the time (takes like 10 seconds lul) to look up the definitions of the new classification system. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses

"Marksmen

Marksmen excel at dealing reliable sustained damage at range (usually through basic attacks) while constantly skirting the edge of danger. Although Marksmen have the ability to stay relatively safe by kiting their foes, they are very fragile and are extremely reliant on powerful item purchases to become true damage threats. Marksmen are such an already distinct set of champions that they are not currently divided into subclasses. Even though there are some potential ways to split the Marksmen (ex: mobile vs. immobile, spell-based vs. basic attack focused), all of the Marksmen ultimately serve a very similar role for their team. In the future, we may explore breaking down the class further."

You can disagree if you want, but at least read up on the subject first.

Sylas Dr3gb0urn3Jan 19, 20173 votes

https://media.giphy.com/media/bzaEWi1Z1xzby/giphy.gif

Sylas Dr3gb0urn3Jan 19, 20174 votes

You are trying to explain WHICH marksmen excel at ADC... which is fine, But your problem is which one's excel at ADC. Not which ones are marksmen.

MY POINT IS THIS: A Marksmen is still a marksmen whether (s)he excels at ADC or not. And an ADC is still an ADC even if they ARE NOT a marksmen. IE: FIORA, TALON, ZED are all ADC. whether or not they are marksmen or not. IE: Kennen, Teemo, AP Ezreal are all Marksmen, whether they excel at ADC or not.

jinxedchefJan 19, 20171 votes

You aren't smart enough to understand and you seem to have made up your mind incorrectly. So I won't waste my time trying to talk to a wall. Just live in ignorance. I won't respond again, if that make you feel like you won something.

Sylas Dr3gb0urn3Jan 19, 20174 votes

{quoted}

You aren't smart enough to understand and you seem to have made up your mind incorrectly. So I won't waste my time trying to talk to a wall. Just live in ignorance. I won't respond again, if that make you feel like you won something.

LOL!!! Do you just randomly speak nonsense, and then when countered lash out and call people names and then pretend that you are smarter than them to boost your own ego? Cause that's kind of what it feels like you are doing to the people in this thread.

But yes, you are correct, I don't understand silly nonsense spoken by someone who doesn't care to listen to logic, and refuses to clarify their own psychobabble, proceeds to lash out and spew more psychobabble, and then walk away calling people more names all the while acting like they won a fight **when they weren't in a fight to begin with. **

ARIATaoSkyshroudJan 19, 20174 votes

Good luck with your psychology appointment today.

Da Golden RuleJan 19, 20174 votes

WHY SO HATEFUL?

ARIATaoSkyshroudJan 19, 20173 votes

No, it's pretty clear they both have a stronger grasp on this than you do. I think you should stop lashing out at people who have a better understanding of things than you do... It really makes you look sad and pathetic.

Da Golden RuleJan 19, 20174 votes

SERIOUSLY? Why are you so angry?

ARIATaoSkyshroudJan 19, 20173 votes

ADC = Attack Damage Carry, meaning a champion that usually has low health but deals a lot of damage from auto attacks, or attack damage. Therefore Slayers (assassins and duelists), marksmen, and sometimes fighters (juggernauts and divers) can ALL be ADC.

A marksman is a ranged attacker that sacrifices defensive power and utility to focus on dealing strong, continuous damage to individual targets.

Also, your assumption that TF, TEEMO, and Kennen can NOT be adc, is pure bs... Build the right Items, runes and masteries and ALL three can be very strong adc's...

You really should step out of your narrow box and broaden your brain's mind a bit.

Chembaron YamadaJan 19, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d4ZFQa3R,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-18T21:02:08.035+0000)

All the listed champions are considered marksmen, either as their primary or secondary subclass, by Riot.

Using that argument, I don't know why people are saying we don't have diversity in bot lane. Bot lane is a mix of marksmen, artillery mages, burst mages and assassins.

Glory ln DeathJan 19, 20174 votes

Oh, there's plenty of diversity in the lane itself. Not as much in the carry position, though.

Chembaron YamadaJan 19, 20173 votes

I mean the carry position. If you really use the argument that "all these champions are considered marksmen by riot as primary or secondary" then you have to admit that the carry position has this diversity.

Varus and Ezreal are artillery mages. Jhin is a burst mage. Quinn and Twitch are assassins.

5000000000000000Jan 19, 20174 votes

Before the whole Ziggs thing, bot lane was almost purely Marksman (who can be some sort of hybrid, sure) + support. Even then, not all marksmen could go bot lane (such as Kayle, Teemo, Jayce, etc.) and expect success.

Bot lane was a mix of marksman, marksman/artillery, marksman/burst mage, and marksman/assassin.

Chembaron YamadaJan 19, 20174 votes

That's what I mean. If champions like Jayce, Kennen, Gnar and others count for him as marksmen to give the argument that marksmen are viable outside of bot lane, too, that means that we actually don't just have diversity because the marksmen in bot lane are actually considered as hybrids of other classes, too.

I never had a problem that marksmen are at bot lane. I think the biggest problem is that we actually don't have so many marksmen adc's for bot lane, which results in low diversity since the champion pool for this position is smaller. If there would be a bigger champion pool, no one would really bother in my opinion. Or are bothering that champions like Darius are not viable in other positions than top? Not really, since top has a large pool of champions to chose from.

5000000000000000Jan 19, 20174 votes

I think the problem was that bot lane was only for marksman (which is an indicator of low diversity), but then it's not even open for all marksmen. I think it's fair to say that's not diverse. Also, note I use past tense because right now we're seeing some diversity bot lane.

According to Champion.gg, only Corki, Quinn, and Twitch are marksmen that are played (and presumably viable) in both bot lane and other positions. So you are right in that most bot lane Marksmen can't go other positions. I'm not sure if I follow your logic though. Bot lane used to be only for Marksmen. There are hybrids of course, but compare that to the top lane diversity of tanks/fighters, mid lane of mage/assassin/(occasionally) marksmen/fighter, or jungle of tank/fighter/mage/marksman. Heck even support position was open to tanks/enchanters/mages.

Snowman ArcJan 19, 20173 votes

There are two categories of marksmen. Ones that rely on their abilities or their kit in general, and the others that rely on their autoattacks and strong scaling on them.

The first type includes Graves, Quinn, Gnar, Corki, Kennen etc. They all utilize abilities to be effective rather than just straight autos and are more of the burst type than the constant high DPS. Quinn utilizes the empowered AA on champions to deal a big burst of damage with her E AA Q AA combo, but then, she lacks any serious follow up.

The second type however relies on autoattacks mostly. Even Lucian, who uses abilities, is useful because of his passive double-shot which is an AA augmentation. These champions have extreme scaling because their AAs get a lot of attack speed or attack damage, which is destructive late game because of crit itemization, while they generally have decent or high AA range (Jinx, Caitlyn, Kogmaw, Varus, Ashe).

Graves can be placed in both categories, based on the way he is played. He can be played as an assassin caster with thunderlords, which is more used in the jungle for maximum early game powerspike with Lethality, or can be played as a traditional ADC with Warlords and crit, which is viable top lane.

Generally, champions that rely on their abilities to do damage are stronger early game and the AA ones are stronger late game, because abilities have base damage values that add burst, which is potent when the enemy only has 1000 max HP in the early game, but falls off later when a tank for example has 4k HP. At the same time, using AAs to take down someone with 1k HP can be hard early, because you have to invest like 10 AAs and that's a lot of time.Later on though, the AAs can deal 1k damage each for example, which means that shredding down anyone isn't as hard.

That's why the traditional AA marksmen can't fare well in solo lane environment. They don't have the tools to survive a lane vs an assassin or a mage or even a tank.

ARIATaoSkyshroudJan 19, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Jayce, Teemo, Kennen, TF, Gnar are not viable marksmen they just happen to be ranged. Their power doesn't come from AAs but from their spells. Might as well call Ryze or Annie a marksmen. Corki was messed up by the package and passive changes, so now he isn't really that good bot and is back in mid. But he like Graves has always been an odd type marksman in that they are caster ADCs. Quinn has always been awful bot. Kindred was designed to be in the jungle and isn't viable bot.

So really, the only true bot lane marksmen that are viable out of bot lane is Corki and Graves and neither is that good in bot anymore.

This is the funniest load of crap I have ever read!!!

Snowman ArcJan 19, 20172 votes

He probably means tht traditional ADC marksmen, like Caitlyn, Lucian, Sivir, Kalista, Jhin etc. These guys will get shit on by any mage mid or any fighter top. A single Orianna QW will take away half their hp and all they can do in return is like maybe 2 autos, maybe. And 10 seconds later, Orianna will all in with her ult and pick up a kill.

Packun FlowerJan 18, 20172 votes

New meta idea.

Top: support Jung: anyone who can survive and do well. Mid: tank Bot: bruiser + mage

Now that would be a fun meta.

GeauxxJan 18, 20172 votes

Idk, the last time i seen someone do some Hard meta changing attempts, it was that singed support double jungle thing... riot didn't treat him or anyone who tried it nicely for changing their meta

DynikusJan 18, 201712 votes

You guys act like Riot implemented the meta, like they made a rulebook and said this is how the game is played. The meta in any game is just what works best, what will give you the highest chance of winning. People figured out the current sustain champ top, apc mid, support+adc bot, ganking jungler thing after a lot of trial and error back in season 1. I feel like a lot of people just don't really understand what the meta is, and just parrot the phrase with a vague understanding of it.

Snowman ArcJan 19, 20171 votes

But when you queue up for rank, Riot specifically gives out these roles and thos specific positions. I think people would love to try out new things, but they don't because they will get banned for "not following the blueprints".

DynikusJan 19, 20171 votes

no they won't. just communicate with your team and try it out if they're on board with it.

Snowman ArcJan 19, 20171 votes

You can't really communicate with random players on a specific gameplan you have on mind and expect them to go with it. Most people will be like "fk off", others will just ignore you, and in all honesty, why would they? What proof do they have that your gameplan is gonna work? Even in theory, you'd have to explain for a long time why it's good and even then, they still wouldn't know if it would work.

You know what? That Singed smite support guy actually tried doing something like that and got banned. Riot wants a very specific gamestyle. 1 Top, 1 Mid, 1 Jungle, 2 Bot with one of the two being support. Even when you find a match, the drop-down pins place the Support in the bottom lane, so that's pretty straightforward as to what Riot thinks.

DynikusJan 19, 20171 votes

You know what? That Singed smite support guy actually tried doing something like that and got banned

No, he didn't. The problem Riot had with it is that he didn't communicate with his team.

Snowman ArcJan 21, 20171 votes

Even then, that's wrong. I don't want my mid laner to play Yasuo, because 80% of the Yasuo's in my team are feeding. And that's a suggestion from most of my premades I queue with. So, does that mean that if someone picks Yasuo, they should be banned?

Another conversation for another time.

Critmaster GarenJan 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You guys act like Riot implemented the meta, like they made a rulebook and said this is how the game is played. The meta in any game is just what works best, what will give you the highest chance of winning. People figured out the current sustain champ top, apc mid, support+adc bot, ganking jungler thing after a lot of trial and error back in season 1. I feel like a lot of people just don't really understand what the meta is, and just parrot the phrase with a vague understanding of it.

this is only half true. there have been meta shifts away from the support + adc lane in the past. however riot usually reacted with a massive nerf batting, or general game mechanic changes that over time solidified this meta.

its not like they havent actively influenced how the game is played. best examples are the relatively recent changes to turret fortification on bot lan and the addition of turret first blood to soley focus attention around bot lane and stop lane swapping in pro games.

you know. the lane swapping was a meta that was developing aswell, and riot just put an end to it.

so yes, they DID infact reimplement the meta every time another one emerged. only since mordes rework they seem to be slowly willing to accept larger changes to the meta without interfering.

swordofsunJan 18, 201710 votes

Riot was fully in support of changing the meta. They weren't in support of doing so without your team's support. That was the issue. Even Singed guy understood this eventually which is why he started duo queuing.

EmollientNut0Jan 18, 20171 votes

Funny part is I've seen a number of supports play as successful top laners. I'd like to see Bard jungle take off at some point, I think it's pretty good personally

Snowman ArcJan 19, 20172 votes

I mean, there is difference between a champion played as support and a supportive champion. Bard isn't a supportive champion, so he can obviously work in other places of the map. Soraka can't though, because she is a supportive champion, same as Janna and Nami. They are there to support others, not themselves.

EmollientNut0Jan 19, 20171 votes

Definitely true, I think that's the main reason I hated Bard supporting me for the longest time. Now it's Soraka I never want, since they usually tend to make you 1v2 the lane haha.

SpoofghoulJan 18, 20172 votes

been playing tanks mid since season 3

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

5000000000000000Jan 19, 20171 votes

Who do you take? I've been trying to do tank mid to shut down enemy assassins. Alistar worked fairly well, but Poppy didn't do very well from my experience.

SpoofghoulJan 19, 20171 votes

Sion mainly, because he is my main and he works REALLY well in midlane

His poke outranges most mages except xerath and lux and the like, which he more or less equals with his E which has a max range of 1500 You can max that and litterally spam it off cd aim at their feet hit them everytime and win lane

he gets too tanky for burst, and you can build regen on him if you need sustain like visage and warmogs

His base damage is high, and i often grab Precision TLD + Ignite which allows me to ''burst'' my enemies, it's slow burst true but they are cc'd when i hit em so it wont matter

Sion is also one of the best roamers, enemy jungler ganking bot no problemo here comes the pain train choo choo tripple kill

and yorick who is actually pretty good there too

They both have a few things which set them apart, yorick with warlords has retarded sustain so you aren't bothered by poke, and everytime you get ghouls you throw em on the enemy mage and wall them in they can't do a thing about it. asassins are even worse off they lack said poke, can't burst you and you out duel them

after bullying them out of lane either gank with wall or take dragon with ult

i had games where i took 3-5 drakes by myself this way and made my team snowball off of those bonuses

AMYS GRAVEJan 18, 20172 votes

If they change the way EXP is shared then maybe other classes could use that lane and thrive, and supports wouldn't find themselves constantly underleveled.

MirkhailJan 18, 20172 votes

The only marksman that are common outside of bot are Graves , Corki , Quinn , Kindred and only corki is also played bot. Most adc are not played outside of bot and if other pick are stronger then adc they have no lane left. Riot could try to do some changes for helping adc outside of the bot combo but it is very complicated and difficult to not screw up.

EmollientNut0Jan 18, 20171 votes

I will admit before Shen 's rework my duo and I used to do a Shen Zac bot lane. Talk about oppressive CC......... I loved it.

5000000000000000Jan 19, 20171 votes

Is it enough damage, though?

1000angrybeesJan 18, 20171 votes

If it wasn't cemented by the playerbase as nearly unchangeable and people were more willing to play for just regular fun (and not for the sake of winning/competition) we could have that.