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That Redemption "nerf" on the PBE...about that...

chipndip1··7 votes·1,867 views

How does it accomplish anything? Now, it accomplishes a little bit:

  • It's not as strong outright, per target. Lower leveled targets get less benefit now.

  • It gives 100 less HP and gains almost double the mana regen.

However:

  • It scales into the exact same value later, so it's still just as mandatory later in the game.

  • Its use is still globally effective (in relation to the cast, not the Rift, for the smart ones that are about to say "IT'S SEMI-GLOBAL!"), so it doesn't discourage anyone from building it for that late-game effectiveness.

  • As a side note, this is Riot admitting that when they put regen on items, it's used as a gold sink stat in most instances. Seriously, who needs 125% mana regen on one support item? Who AT ALL needs HP regen AT ALL?

In all, this change will accomplish nothing, itemization is still going to revolve entirely around this item's combo in the support role, and all we did was remove 100 bulk in HP and put in mana regen, which we now know regen stats are intentionally used to put support itemization in the dirt half the time. Yipee...

25 Comments

2 Weezy Baby4 votes

Supports finally get one good support item and all you do is bitch and moan.

chipndip14 votes

Supports get one inherently broken item on top of item 3190 another inherently broken item item 3190 and all you see is "MAN THIS IS A GOOD ITEM". This item has little to do with strategy or making choices between different options for different situations. It's just always strong. I don't want an item that's mandatory to take. Locket already is, so the answer is "make another one"?

BIackfox2 votes

{quoted}

Supports get one inherently broken item on top of item 3190 another inherently broken item item 3190 and all you see is "MAN THIS IS A GOOD ITEM". This item has little to do with strategy or making choices between different options for different situations. It's just always strong. I don't want an item that's mandatory to take. Locket already is, so the answer is "make another one"?

It lost it's aura? Broken?

chipndip11 votes

The shield is insanely potent now and scales with shield/heal passives. I made a thread on the math for the amount of sustain you can get from Locket and Redemption together by level 18. It's like 5k - 8k between shields and heals before a support uses anything in their own kits.

The mr aura is actually significantly less important than the shield. The difference is that the shield can be "missed", whereas the aura is always on. Doesn't make Locket weaker. It's significantly stronger, gated by timing.

2 Weezy Baby3 votes

{quoted}

Supports get one inherently broken item on top of item 3190 another inherently broken item item 3190 and all you see is "MAN THIS IS A GOOD ITEM". This item has little to do with strategy or making choices between different options for different situations. It's just always strong. I don't want an item that's mandatory to take. Locket already is, so the answer is "make another one"?

Locket has already been nerfed. No aura and extra shield active makes it useful once every 90 seconds unlike before where it was useful every moment after purchasing it. redemption is also on a 120 sec cool down before becoming useful again. Like come on man you're bitching about nothing.

chipndip11 votes

Except the aura is way less important than the shield so what's the nerf in that? What's more important between an insanely potent shield that blocks any damage and 15 mr at all levels?

And if I'm bitching about nothing, name an item that's more useful than either of these items in the support role.

2 Weezy Baby1 votes

{quoted}

Except the aura is way less important than the shield so what's the nerf in that? What's more important between an insanely potent shield that blocks any damage and 15 mr at all levels?

And if I'm bitching about nothing, name an item that's more useful than either of these items in the support role.

Do you forget the old locket had an aura and a shield that scaled with level and shield boosting items/masteries? And why are you complaining that redemption and locket are good support items? Every other support item is garbage, it's not that redemption and locket are extremely op. And come on man, you are complaining about SUPPORT.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=2 Weezy Baby,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d2sK1Xvh,comment-id=00010000000100000000,timestamp=2017-01-15T17:58:44.028+0000)

Do you forget the old locket had an aura and a shield that scaled with level and shield boosting items/masteries?

Do you have basic reading and comprehension skills? Old Locket's shield was significantly weaker. Riot traded reliability for potency. Skill floor for skill ceiling. Guaranteed gains for potential gain increases. New Locket is a bit harder to use, but still generally stronger than old Locket.

And why are you complaining that redemption and locket are good support items? Every other support item is garbage, it's not that redemption and locket are extremely op. And come on man, you are complaining about SUPPORT.

I'm complaining because there's no trade off to the abilities on these items. There's no time where an aoe sustain option will be out of style. That isn't good itemization. That's broken and centralizing. If it isn't, then I gladly welcome back the days of IBG/Sunfire Cape running top lane. GLADLY.

No matter what buffing you do to the other support items, you aren't outclassing aoe sustain per team fight.

Zero Skill Tank2 votes

What's more important between an insanely potent shield that blocks any damage and 15 mr at all levels?

15 MR at all levels, hands down.

chipndip11 votes

So you'd rather have the legitimately worse option because you can't time the blatantly better option?

Schàdenfreude2 votes

(in relation to the cast, not the Rift, for the smart ones that are about to say "IT'S SEMI-GLOBAL!")

Upvoted just because of that sentence.

Fucking hate smartasses.

Who is Taliyah2 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/618848a441e58b7ac57200702c531b6b.png It is not a big nerf that's right. However, it is a bit weaker in early game and even has 100 hp less, that alone can decide many fights. Give them time to balance it completely. Changing too many things too quickly could cause even more balance problems.

chipndip12 votes

I actually clearly understand their intentions with the change, why they did it, and what they're aiming for. I'm here to say that it won't work. Didn't work with Locket, won't work now.

The thing that makes this item op is that it's globally viable between all supports. I was watching Dong Huap's vid on support Malz, and apparently EVEN MALZAHAR BUYS REDEMPTION IN THE LATE GAME. Like, REALLY!? A mage support? Redemption? It's just universally useful to have aoe sustain. There's no "bad" thing to having an aoe shield or heal, so there's no trade off, so it overshadows everything else.

The issue is waiting for Riot to realize this. The issue isn't the stats. It's the actives.

Who is Taliyah1 votes

I think the actives are fine, however, they should tune them in another way. Make the base stat of the active weaker and make it scale with mana regen would be an idea. This way mage "supports" would lose interest in it and common supports that get mana regen on other items would synergize with it pretty well.

chipndip11 votes

Thing is that you think the actives are strong and noticeable. This is fine. My issue is that these aren't designed in a way that one champ can't use them well, and someone else can. These are one size fits all items, and it undermines the significance of your support champion, which leads to a watered down game play experience.

I'm not saying you can't have sustain in your support items. It's their implementation that's the problem, in other words.

Escheton1 votes

I absolutely LOVE hp regen on Heimerdinger and Sion . Just because you only play champs with low bases doesn't mean the rest of us feel the same way.

chipndip11 votes

Fair enough on Heimer since he's not trying to recall any time soon.

I call bs on Sion.

Escheton1 votes

It's part of why his support winrate is so good. He recovers from sloppy trades much faster than others due to his very high regen. Top...same thing really. You outsustain and chunk tower when they back.

yoshi27901 votes

Tbh they should just remove the damage dealing part.

Shuyin1781 votes

Riot was fine with the healing late game, however the early game healing was way to powerful, so they nerfed that so it wouldn't kill the item.

chipndip11 votes

Won't do jack for item diversity in the support role. We're still going to see Thresh rushing this.

Meep Man1 votes

To be fair, for the stats it provides, Thresh has the most reason to rush it since he realistically makes the most out of all of the stats out of most Supports.

chipndip11 votes

And every other tank support?

Meep Man1 votes

Different story unless they have a shield/heal move and use mana. Basically, Thresh, Alistar, and Taric.

Risk of Fate1 votes
  • As a side note, this is Riot admitting that when they put regen on items, it's used as a gold sink stat in most instances. Seriously, who needs 125% mana regen on one support item? Who AT ALL needs HP regen AT ALL?

Soraka DrMundo Zac Garen

I feel like it's still going be heavily abused by these champs or even moreso make the tanks that much harder to kill as it is. You only need two up in your team now to absolutely wreck things with item 3068 item 3512 item 3022

This is probably going to bring Soraka back into the meta thanks to how low mana her q and w are. The ones I've played against so far are still extremely unkillable unless you hard focus on them lest they just regen the front line like it's no problem.

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