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Maybe ADCs have too much burst?

TequilaZombie··32 votes·2,255 views

So, I've been playing a bit more of ADCs lately (namely Twitch, as I suck with Jhin) instead of assassins or wonky off meta builds whenI noticed something. As a late game Twitch you can reliably 2 shot squishies.

I've been an assassin main ever since season 2 and I've played a crap load of Fizz, Talon, Shaco (my main), and Kha'Zix since then. One thing I've noticed was that unless any of them were ahead in items and levels, they weren't able to kill anyone in under a second, with Talon maybe being the exception here depending on the game.

As a Twitch, I could reliably kill squishies in 2 auto attacks. Nothing more than that. Come out of stealth with ult and 2.x attack speed. Hit a squishy twice and it's dead. No need to even use your E. I could assassinate people more reliably with Twitch than I could with Shaco, Fizz, and Kha. And then I'd proceed to assassinate the rest of the enemy team from 850 units away. I could kill full tanks and bruisers in 3-5 autos. I literally had nothing to worry about besides being caught out by heavy CC and burst.

And I wasn't really overly fed. I was 2/2 until 34 mins into the game, being about or under average in gold until the 35 minutes mark. After that, I became a killing machine. Simply because I could kill anything before it could kill me and could keep killing things without worrying about my CDs.

I'm no expert game designer, but when a marksman, who's supposed to be about constant DPS, is able to burst a single target faster and safer than an assassin and then continue with it's ranged murdering spree, something might be wrong.

33 Comments

Oglaf10 votes

There's a distinct itemization problem where attack damage severely outscales defense, but apparently Rito is happy with that so don't expect any changes anytime soon.

Teridax6810 votes

Damage eventually outscaling defense is more or less fine, since that allows games to be closed out; what OP is talking about is marksman damage not only approaching standard burst levels, but at times far exceeding them, to the point where squishy enemies can end up dying without ever being able to properly react.

Oglaf1 votes

{quoted}

Damage eventually outscaling defense is more or less fine, since that allows games to be closed out; what OP is talking about is marksman damage not only approaching standard burst levels, but at times far exceeding them, to the point where squishy enemies can end up dying without ever being able to properly react.

Sure, but not to the extreme degrees it does now.

Maszii3 votes

Perfectly fine idd to have 3 midlaners every single game, because regular supports or tanks are basically useless.

LordGeovanni1 votes

when its damage from multiple people to 1 persons defenses not 1-1 because then that is reilably saying that tanks are designed to go in and die as they ahve to tank 5 peopls damage and 4 of them are super significant while only one person you can rely on to not have game changeing damge and that is the support unless they are a mage support then the have hard damage too cause mage supports have to also go mid.

aperson11 votes

It's the wrong solution to the right problem.

It's true that tankier champs are worse at killing towers, inhibitors and the nexus and better at holding them, but the fix for that is not to make tank items worthless after 40 minutes, the fix is to give tanks items that allow them to participate in the objective battle.

We've all had those moments where after a teamfight ends, a single tank is left standing and they awkwardly stand around to twiddle their thumbs on a minion wave because they can't even kill Dragon or take a tower before everyone has respawned.

Teridax682 votes

{quoted}

It's true that tankier champs are worse at killing towers, inhibitors and the nexus and better at holding them, but the fix for that is not to make tank items worthless after 40 minutes, the fix is to give tanks items that allow them to participate in the objective battle.

I don't think tank items are worthless in the late game, but I completely agree that they should be able to participate better in taking objectives. The same applies for every other class, really, and I don't think the game will ever be as healthy as it can be as long as marksmen hold the monopoly on objective control. Perhaps one option could be to remove the armor penetration from turrets, and instead make them deal much more raw damage, which would give tanky champions much more freedom to invade enemy defenses and tank turrets for their team during dives. Another could be to make turrets take damage from abilities, even if it means increasing their health and/or giving them more regen overall. With tanks specifically, though, damage is seen as essentially the only way to impact the environment, and that needs to change.

DeathBurst6 votes

Twitch isn't exactly the best example to complain about ADC vs Assassin, since he's an hybrid of the two... Let's not mention that according to OP.GG, "I've been playing a bit more of ADCs lately (namely Twitch)" = 5 games on Twitch. At this rate, I can say that I'm now a Jinx main, with my 19 games on her (except, you know, that would be lying).

Plus, if you needed more than 1s to kill squishies as an Assassin, you were doing something wrong, the soon-to-be Roster Update main purpose was to change that.

TequilaZombie3 votes

Ok, point by point:

  • Twitch might not be the best example, as he's an hybrid. However his primary is still Marksman. And he's able to delete squishies just as fast or in some cases faster than pure assassins. While not giving up his Marksman characteristics.
  • Not saying I'm a main, but just sharing a trend I've been noticing. Also, I play a lot in the BR servers with my friends on other accounts and usually have to go bot due to how much they suck at the role.
  • With any assassin who's not Talon or possibly LB, you probably need a bit more than a second to take a squishy out if they have anything to help them out as a dash or summoners up. Shaco can usually 80-0 most ADCs if he can AA twice before his target dashes away needing to chase for that last auto. If he's ahead, he can prob 100-0 in the Q+AA+E rotation. If the target flashes/blinks/dashes, Shaco gets kited. Zed has the obvious timer on his ult. Fizz has his ult's timer + the delay on E if he's aiming to use it for damage. Kha and Kat aren't usually looking to 100-0 anyone, but rather finish off multiple low-ish health targets.

The damage on an AD assassin's kit is usually about 1k base damage with somewhere between 150-400% bonus AD scaling. Assuming a 350 bonus AD build, they will be doing about 2k damage in their burst. As a Marksman, you can easily reach 1k damage crits with a crit build, while also having quite a lot of attack speed, possibly over 2.0. And that's not taking any steroids or abilities in consideration. With auto attacks alone, ADCs can rather safely put about 2k damage per second, the same as an assassin can put in a burst using all their CDs and being forced into the middle of the enemy team.

DeathBurst3 votes

I don't have time to actually check your calculation right now, sorry. But I highly doubt the 2K/s figure you mentioned for Marksmen...

EDIT: and what delay on Fizz E for damage? The delay is only for the slow, according to the wikia. Zed was always touted as a "healthy assassin" because of his delay. Shaco doesn't have delay, he just as low burst, but he still outputs his burst in less than a second. Rengo/LB/Talon had absolutely no delay and that's why they were all included as major rework, Kata had pretty much no delay except the channel on her ult at the tail end of her burst, now she has to wait for her daggers to come down. Akali and Kha are different, they usually need more than one rotation to kill someone but they have one spammable skill, so I grant you that. But even for them, their damage over the first 1-2 s is still higher than that of a Marksman.

TequilaZombie1 votes

Just for calculation purposes, if you take Twitch on an average full build with his ult up, which leads to about 400 total AD, a single IE crit autoattack deals 1000 damage. Add in that same build's bonus attack speed, and Twitch reaches a little over 2 attacks per second. In a little under a second, Twitch can deal 2000 physical damage to his target, from 850 units away. If you want to extend that to the duration of Zed's ult, which is 3 seconds, Twitch gets to deal between 2400 and over 6000 damage with that same build, with a likely average damage output of 4200. This is not counting any further damage from his abilities, including his passive, or any other effects he might benefit from. By contrast, Zed's total damage output, assuming he lands Q from all three sources, uses W twice and amplifies Duskblade's passive, is a bit under 1600 + 850% bonus AD + 15% max health + 40% missing health -- impressive, to be sure, but he'd still need at least 400 raw bonus AD from items, even when factoring in his W, to match Twitch's damage output during that same period, and his most common build only provides about 250. This is, by the way, comparing Zed's utmost burst against three seconds of Twitch ulting, when the former then ends up with significantly less damage output overall, and the latter can keep on spraying, and doing so against multiple targets at a time.

Teridax68's post on another comment doing the maths for it. 1k raw damage per AA is not far for reality.

DeathBurst1 votes

Ok; I stand corrected, 2K/s is realistic on ADC. The trick is, I was also underestimating severely the burst of Assassins.

I mean, 1600 + 850% AD with 250 bAD is already 3725, with the 15% max health and the 40% missing health, that's more than Twitch. Saying you need 400 bAD is totally neglecting the two %damage proc, which is just plain dishonest.

Saying that Twitch can keep the same DPS and can do it on multiple targets also. He can reach this level only with R+AS buff from invis+Youmuu activated, and a noticeable part of Zed burst is AoE too.

But more importantly, Zed (and Assassins in general) can much more easily access the squishy back-line of the enemy team and apply all that damage to targets that actually matter. Whereas ADC have to deal with the front-line first.

Sans Hama1 votes

{quoted}

Twitch isn't exactly the best example to complain about ADC vs Assassin, since he's an hybrid of the two... Let's not mention that according to OP.GG, "I've been playing a bit more of ADCs lately (namely Twitch)" = 5 games on Twitch. At this rate, I can say that I'm now a Jinx main, with my 19 games on her (except, you know, that would be lying).

Plus, if you needed more than 1s to kill squishies as an Assassin, you were doing something wrong, the soon-to-be Roster Update main purpose was to change that.

As a twitch main, you cant actually do that in a fair game. In a normal game you have to go through a shit laning phase and you cant 1 shot if u go even with the laner you cant one shot

Neko Caitlyn4 votes

Twitch is the assassin ADC. Thats kinda the whole point of him. Hes immobile and offers nothing to the team other then damage, so he better have a shitload of it.

Arakadia1 votes

Hey Neko!

SGT Dingle Berry2 votes

Sure lower the damage but give them all shunpo

TequilaZombie5 votes

Seeing as most of them have something like Cait's Net, Ez' blink, Lucian/Graves' dashes, Corki's flight or some sort of hard CC, I don't think a shunpo would be necessary. Not to mention that they can put their damage from 550 to 700 range, while assassins usually need to be in melee (125).

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Oh please, Lucian and Jhin get that kind of burst damage before they even buy anything. At least Twitch has to EARN his late game super damage by getting through early and mid game, no, what pisses me off is bot lane being decided by whether you have a burst ADC or not. And I'm not even talking about the armor pen builds (Though they certainly don't help) they do this kind of super high damage before buying anything, like I said and they don't fall off enough to justify how powerful their damage is early game.

TequilaZombie1 votes

like I said and they don't fall off enough to justify how powerful their damage is early game.

I'd change that to "They deal too much damage early on for how powerful is their late game scaling". Afterall, ADCs are meant as an Late Game class.

Sans Hama1 votes

{quoted}

Oh please, Lucian and Jhin get that kind of burst damage before they even buy anything. At least Twitch has to EARN his late game super damage by getting through early and mid game, no, what pisses me off is bot lane being decided by whether you have a burst ADC or not. And I'm not even talking about the armor pen builds (Though they certainly don't help) they do this kind of super high damage before buying anything, like I said and they don't fall off enough to justify how powerful their damage is early game.

Agreed, as a twitch main the only way twitch is one shooting you is if you fed him. at that point your just bad

Bruce Vayne1 votes

Let's just talk Zed with dusk blade. /Thread

let us also remember that an Assassins entire job is to delete carries. And for ADCs to reach that kind of damage they have to be untouched and just sitting there AAing which never happens in any game above bronze. You're numbers may be right in a vacuum of patchwerk. ADCs have to deal with hard CC from tanks and assassins, we almost never get to just AA freely to hit those numbers homie.

PS: 1k crit, against the assassins? maybe. armor homie that is a stat you can buy and it works quite well.

TequilaZombie1 votes

1k crit on raw phisical damage is not hard to achieve with an average crit build. Specially with fervor adding an extra 100 damage on top of your crit.

In the same manner, AD Assassins deal about 2k damage in their full rotation, which can be mitigated by armor just as well.

Armor goes both ways.

Teridax687 votes

Just for calculation purposes, if you take Twitch on an average full build with his ult up, which leads to about 400 total AD, a single IE crit autoattack deals 1000 damage. Add in that same build's bonus attack speed, and Twitch reaches a little over 2 attacks per second. In a little under a second, Twitch can deal 2000 physical damage to his target, from 850 units away. If you want to extend that to the duration of Zed's ult, which is 3 seconds, Twitch gets to deal between 2400 and over 6000 damage with that same build, with a likely average damage output of 4200. This is not counting any further damage from his abilities, including his passive, or any other effects he might benefit from. By contrast, Zed's total damage output, assuming he lands Q from all three sources, uses W twice and amplifies Duskblade's passive, is a bit under 1600 + 850% bonus AD + 15% max health + 40% missing health -- impressive, to be sure, but he'd still need at least 400 raw bonus AD from items, even when factoring in his W, to match Twitch's damage output during that same period, and his most common build only provides about 250. This is, by the way, comparing Zed's utmost burst against three seconds of Twitch ulting, when the former then ends up with significantly less damage output overall, and the latter can keep on spraying, and doing so against multiple targets at a time.

It's also worth noting that, while marksmen do get focused by others, assassins have to literally get behind enemy lines in order to kill their priority targets, which leaves them significantly more open to attack. As TequilaZombie also mentioned, armor factors for both assassins and marksmen, assuming they both deal physical damage (and, if not, magic damage assassins have to deal with magic resistance, so the end's the same).

Maszii1 votes

Salty Vayne main spotted.

Melvear1 votes

Take critical hits out of the equation and we'd suddenly have a much easier time balancing burst and dps between every single damage dealing champion in the game.

TequilaZombie1 votes

I'd rather have critical hits woking as an over time feature of some sorts. Or have ADCs damage working that way. Ramping up to a possibly higher point than now (at least relatively, as I'm totally for an overall damage reduction), but starting smaller and building up over time. Kinda like Jax's passive.

Melvear1 votes

{quoted}

I'd rather have critical hits woking as an over time feature of some sorts. Or have ADCs damage working that way. Ramping up to a possibly higher point than now (at least relatively, as I'm totally for an overall damage reduction), but starting smaller and building up over time. Kinda like Jax's passive.

That could work but as you said, I'm not entirely sure it's necessary.

a special one1 votes

THATS A LIE LMAO DO THE MATHS UNLESS U GOT 400 AD CRIT BOTH TIMES AND ENEMY SQUISHY IS 5+ LEVELS BEHIND YOU ITS IMPOSSIBLE SO PLS DONT MAKE SHIT UP THANK YOU xd

Mandang01 votes

The difference is that the assassin deals their damage against squishy targets, while the ADC has to attack the tanks. And, no, the ADC isn't doing that burst faster or more reliably than the assassin. You're stretching the truth quite a bit about your Twitch anecdote and your typical experience on assassins.

FCJAAAAGOOOO1 votes

yeahhh maybe the only one that should be able to pull off burst damage is the guy with the shotgun.

Calabok1 votes

so he's saying nerf Twitch?

TequilaZombie1 votes

I'm saying we might want to take a look at the direction the game currently going. Specially ADCs.

zlumpy1 votes

Tbh the entire game has too much burst at this point.

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