Riot: "We feel that Veigar lacked counterplay..."

Denerka·Feb 26, 2015·33 votes·3,585 views

Riot: "We feel that Veigar lacked counterplay because one shouldn't feel forced into buying in order to survive."

47 Comments

Malix FarwinFeb 26, 20157 votes

not even that. item 3111 was all i really needed. Hell, malz ult was a bigger threat then veigar's stun which is 0 threat now.

WuWoFeb 27, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Riot: "We feel that Veigar lacked counterplay because one shouldn't feel forced into buying in order to survive."

In addition,

"But but, Veigar's stun lacked counterplay!"

It took skill to land it as the margins of the stun were very thin.

"But but, once players become skilled with Veigar stun, you'll get 100-0!"

So, it's okay for Zed/LeBlanc to delete champions 100-0 (and get back to relative safety) if they are skilled, but not okay for Veigar?

rth2Feb 28, 20151 votes

I don't really think you understand what is generally meant by lack of counterplay.

Veigar's stun did not take skill to land. You turn on the targeting reticle for your cage and you know if you will land it or not. 100%. That isn't skill, that's just not blind casting your stun.
Zed/LeBlanc do not delete champions 100-0 without being fed. This is why the gameplay for many zed's/LB's is to try and farm/harrass until level 6 where they can try and all in with ignite (which is many champions idea, almost every champions; get ult first, try to fight). If they can harass you down to below half health (more likely 1/3 health) by level 6, without being in danger of dieing themselves then they can go in, try to land a full combo, and if they land everything you will probably die. This also hopes that the person they are fighting doesn't fight back and kill them, or that the person does not interrupt them while they are trying to fight.
Veigars play went much the same, try to harass generally with a targeted q except at 6 just put your instant cage out (if you use reticle you will hit it if you are in range) and you can drop your entire kit without them being able to react. You are able to react to Zed and LeBlanc. This is what the counterplay is about. It isn't about whether Zed/LeBlanc are perfectly balanced/healthy. It is that you have options against their kit. Veigar's stun, which could extend beyond his cast range, did not have early game counterplay. QSS has a high cooldown active, so does zed's ult, but not veigars cage. So if you QSS the cage, you can't do it again in 10 seconds. It doesn't actually stop any veigar damage either; it counters zed as it removes the mark and basically negates his all in.
It was mentioned that you can Zhonya veigars ult, which you can also do to Zed. However, you can't Zhonya while stunned, so with old Veigar, he would drop cage directly on you using targeting reticle, then W + Ult and you could not Zhonya b/c you were stunned. If he just tossed ult without stunning you, then yeah you can zhonya. But that illustrates even more why his cage was no counterplay.

Hopefully this shows a bit about why Veigar's cage was no counterplay. When I would play veigar, many matches I would actually max or put a few points into cage just for the absurd instant stun. Guaranteed a successful jungle gank (either kill or flash) most of the times, and definitely made W and Q damage without them being able to trade back. The cage needed to be changed.

WuWoMar 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't really think you understand what is generally meant by lack of counterplay.

Veigar's stun did not take skill to land. You turn on the targeting reticle for your cage and you know if you will land it or not. 100%. That isn't skill, that's just not blind casting your stun.

Zed/LeBlanc do not delete champions 100-0 without being fed. This is why the gameplay for many zed's/LB's is to try and farm/harrass until level 6 where they can try and all in with ignite (which is many champions idea, almost every champions; get ult first, try to fight). If they can harass you down to below half health (more likely 1/3 health) by level 6, without being in danger of dieing themselves then they can go in, try to land a full combo, and if they land everything you will probably die. This also hopes that the person they are fighting doesn't fight back and kill them, or that the person does not interrupt them while they are trying to fight.

Veigars play went much the same, try to harass generally with a targeted q except at 6 just put your instant cage out (if you use reticle you will hit it if you are in range) and you can drop your entire kit without them being able to react. You are able to react to Zed and LeBlanc. This is what the counterplay is about. It isn't about whether Zed/LeBlanc are perfectly balanced/healthy. It is that you have options against their kit. Veigar's stun, which could extend beyond his cast range, did not have early game counterplay. QSS has a high cooldown active, so does zed's ult, but not veigars cage. So if you QSS the cage, you can't do it again in 10 seconds. It doesn't actually stop any veigar damage either; it counters zed as it removes the mark and basically negates his all in.

It was mentioned that you can Zhonya veigars ult, which you can also do to Zed. However, you can't Zhonya while stunned, so with old Veigar, he would drop cage directly on you using targeting reticle, then W + Ult and you could not Zhonya b/c you were stunned. If he just tossed ult without stunning you, then yeah you can zhonya. But that illustrates even more why his cage was no counterplay.

Hopefully this shows a bit about why Veigar's cage was no counterplay. When I would play veigar, many matches I would actually max or put a few points into cage just for the absurd instant stun. Guaranteed a successful jungle gank (either kill or flash) most of the times, and definitely made W and Q damage without them being able to trade back. The cage needed to be changed.

If you turn on the reticle, you make the cage a lot slower, and consequently, harder to land. That, and accounting for the cast time, the opponent would have been easily outside the small margins of the cage. Since you're Veigar and your kit depends on landing that stun, turning reticles on is a poor choice anyway. Unless your opponent was sitting still, it's not gonna land 100%.
Veigar cannot 100-0 champions (unless they really stacked AP) without being fed/sufficiently farmed. His laning phase was downright horrible. Also, you are overestimating his kill potential (especially after DFG is gone). As his W is usually leveled last, it does less damage than his Q. In addition, he is very reliant on his stun. If you don't land a stun, you don't get a kill. Poor waveclear (since W is leveled last) and had obscene mana costs; the two champions you listed fare better in both of these categories. Given that he is relatively close ranged and his Q is his ONLY form of harass, Veigar is often farming under turret. If he used his Q on a minion, you know you can just unload on him since all he can do is auto attack. If he used his Q on you, you can do unload on him all the same as he can only auto attack until his Q comes off cooldown again. His W is useless without a stun and using his W or his E costs so much mana that he cannot afford to do so.
So what if Veigar is formulaic? "Veigar's stun, which could extend beyond his cast range, did not have early game counterplay." Um, merc treads. At rank 1, 2, (maybe 3) event horizon doesn't hold you long enough for W to hit you for full (if any) damage. His W (despite being a meteor) has a very small damage range. This is as opposed to Zed, where you had to get a Zhonyas.
If Veigar goes all in and he does not kill his opponent, he is dead. Veigar has to put himself in danger range to get a kill. Unlike the two champions, he cannot run away. In addition, if there is more than one opponent, Veigar suffers from long cooldowns from the rest of his kit that he cannot deal with them. In a teamfight, this is exactly the same. After he stuns and drops everything on one guy, he runs away. The other two champions aren't limited by long cooldowns (as with Zed, he can actually deal damage with AA).

Veigar isn't an assassin. But he is a strong duelist vs immobile AP carries/squishes in the mid-game. That is his role. It's straightforward; either he kills you or you kill him.

rth2Mar 2, 20151 votes

I'm not saying to take it off of smartcast. You can regular cast with a set of hotkeys(keeping the smartcast option as your default), or you can turn on show range indicators with quick cast in the options menu. This way when you release the button the cage goes instead of when you first press it. You just get the added benefit of seeing the range indicator and when they are on the line, just release the button. Boom. Stunned. Go Ham/harass. The difference is barely noticeable. The cage was ultra easy to land if you used these casting methods.
100-0 when fed; that's the point. Champs don't do that unless fed. However, I think your point mentioning zed/leblanc in your post was that they get to relative safety. The thing is, Veigar starts with relative safety. The cage gave you 2.5 seconds of safety. A circle of safety, even in a teamfight. You hit it, meteor, q, r and have a second to walk away. If you don't hit it, you wait. To get to you if you don't stun someone, they have to have flash as passing through the cage still stuns you. However, Zed/LeBlanc have to jump in on you to do their full damage. Then they have to hit their skills. You can dodge these, flash, displace them, stun them, or otherwise interrupt them. Especially in a teamfight. Veigar puts up a big stun your team, then crunch someone and have a second to walk away. So Veigar starts and maintains relative safety if you position well. By definition, LeBlanc and Zed have to go into danger to do damage. Veigar did not.
The point wasn't that it was formulaic. It was that it was the same formula as the other people you listed. Harass to low health then blow up at 6. You already mentioned Q doing more damage than W early. If you land Cage tag them with a Q auto for free. Ult them if they are low enough. If not do it again soon. If they have gotten Merc Treads (which I only think AD mids would do; veigar maybe not the best pick as he blew up mages) you could have gotten mana regen and are able to use the cage fairly often.

Also, the thing you had to get vs Zed was a QSS. If you are an AP champ, 9 out of 10 times you are getting a Zhonya's in your build anyway. You just have the option of getting it early to negate Zed's all in. QSS is the thing you would have to go out of your way to get.

Not really true. If veigar takes 90% of your health you still can't fight him, in a few seconds he has that Q back up. Also, it is your job to know your damage and numbers. If you don't kill your opponent you didn't calculate your damage. If you don't have enough to kill them, harass until you can burst them.

Teamfights, you stun the enemy team (also blocking their engages as mentioned earlier; they cannot go through cage), pop someone and walk away. Your Q comes up every few seconds and does good damage. You can still do work in teamfights, and Meteor can actually hit without the cage in teamfights, or zone so well that you can win the fight. Do you have to play like most AP's? Use skills back up and use again as they come up? Yes.

You mentioned it. Veigar isn't an assassin. He is a burst mage. He can do lots of damage in teamfights with q and w and also have the option of stunning multiple people and being able to blow up one. Say LeBlanc jumps in, you Q + Ult her. She is gone. You aren't the frontline, you are a burst mage. You can play like a heavy damage mage who has the option to delete someone. So yeah, Veigar shouldn't 2v1 unless extremely strong. He can cage both, then delete one of them possibly. But he isn't an assassin; assassins get in and get out. Burst mages don't. Brand doesn't, although he is better at 2v1's than Veigar.

It is also worth noting that I was saying the Cage was an issue. It did indeed have no counter play. I'm not saying that the new Veigar is great. Not saying the Cage change was the right change or that they did not weaken / nerf Veigar with the change. Just saying that the cage did have no real counter play.

You can't Zhonya's while caged.
Banshee's can easily be popped before you cage / is unreliable.
QSS does not build into AP items; so it's wasted stats on a Mage. Not players fault but true.

Once again, the issue wasn't does Veigar burst as hard as other champs? Does he have power balance? I was talking about the cage, and you mentioned Zed/LeBlanc in your post and put some thoughts on Veigar's similarities and differences with them.

Did Veigar need a change? Yeah, he did. Was the right change made? Probably not.

DenerkaFeb 26, 20154 votes

By the way, I'm pretty sure his Q being turned into a skillshot fucked him over more than his stun, lmao.

Malix FarwinFeb 26, 201521 votes

{quoted}

By the way, I'm pretty sure his Q being turned into a skillshot fucked him over more than his stun, lmao.

i would agree with that if it wasn't for the fact that his stun change essentially made w useless

RazorTSFeb 26, 20152 votes

combination of two did, if they left Q targeted at least he had reliable damage source, they could made Q bounce same way MF's do

RrettFeb 27, 20152 votes

I disagree with that.

CommanderPiratesFeb 26, 20153 votes

Watch some LCS, and you'll see why zed is perfectly healthy and no need for QSS or Zhyo Heck even in gold people can counter zed so easily. Veigar is a 2.5 sec stun which you CANT zhoy NOR QSS I don't want to say this, but this is the difference between high elo and low elo.

DenerkaFeb 26, 20159 votes

I'm Platinum. There's a difference between high elo and your elo, Mr. Bronze 2. Go skidaddle, now.

Seth LightheartFeb 26, 201512 votes

So am I, and I agree with the guy.

Also, don't bash people because of their Elo, it is rude.

P.S. I freaking hated Vgar, he stunned you and you died...

DenerkaFeb 26, 20153 votes

He started it. :'c

Big LincolnFeb 26, 20156 votes

What do you want to happen when a burst mage manages to drop CC on you?

Do you want to eat a stun and still get away scott free?

Seth LightheartFeb 26, 20156 votes

I'll ask you this, what burst mage has an instant stun?

Who I'm fine killing me would be zed or ahri, I have a good half second before I know they are coming down on me, which gives me time to react and do something. With Veigar I was stunned and died, if he missed his stun he would wait for it to come off CD and try it again. It cost him next to nothing. And I watched helpless as I was blown up.... no thank you. Good riddance.

BerserkInfernoFeb 26, 20151 votes

Then you certainly don't know how to buy a QSS. or take cleanse. or buy a BV. or dodge. something along those lines. And as far as burst mages having stuns Brand, Annie, Victor, to name a few.

Seth LightheartFeb 26, 20152 votes

Read what I said again.

As for cleanse that is laughable. BV is not reliable. However! QSS is a solid option, but it will not work vs a good Veigar

AudiomancyFeb 26, 20152 votes

I'll ask you this, what burst mage has an instant stun?

Annie Ahri Lissandra Syndra Xerath Malzahar TwistedFate Velkoz

Seth LightheartFeb 26, 20152 votes

Read what I said again.

The only person in that list who has an instant stun is Annie and Lissandra .

Also everyone on that list has a wind-up which tells you it is coming. (save for Lissandra )

AudiomancyFeb 27, 20153 votes

If you really want to be that technical about it, Lissandra's stun isn't instant. It has a slight delay before you're frozen. And Malzahar's ult is instant. TF's Gold Card has a travel time but it's still point-and-click so there's not much you can do about it, instant or not.

I'm really not seeing your point.

Seth LightheartFeb 27, 20152 votes

This is my point:

TwistedFate wants to stun me, I watch three cards fly over his head, he locks onto gold, I know exactly what is is going to do.

Annie wants to stun me I see smoke circling around her.

Ahri is a skill shot and it flies right at me.

Malzahar doesn't have a stun, has a suppress AND it is an ult. But besides that he needs to drop his entire combo on me, forcing me to sit on his pool and get hit by voidings to do any real 100-0 damage.

Now do you see what I am saying? Every other champ telegraphs their move. (Besides the one we talked about) I know what they are going to do and can do something actively about it. Not just, welp... I should have bought a item 3140 .

Now Veigar has to do the same thing.

AudiomancyFeb 27, 20153 votes

Veigar has 60+% of his mana pool left (assuming no tear) and is moving closer to me when I move towards minions. He's probably expecting me to run backwards as soon as he gets into range so he can place his stun behind me. Gee, maybe running forward and engaging on him would help!

Seth LightheartFeb 27, 20152 votes

You can say that range about anyone. He now telegraphs his move, it isn't a game breaking change.

ZmuecatFeb 27, 20152 votes

For Veigar it is.

They kept the cast time on it too. You get to spend a whole 1.25 seconds waiting for your 1.25 second (level 1) stun to go off!

What's that? You still got stunned? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I'm being overly dramatic, but the amount of time you spend attempting to stun someone is atrocious and game breaking for the master of evil. Couple that with the fact that his meteor drop suddenly loses effectiveness becayse your enemies either don't care about your stun (which had ensured success rate) because we bought tenacity, QSS, or Zhonyas, or never were going to get hit by it because we can apply not only what we used to do (bait) but also just walk out of it.

FebruAhriFeb 27, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=One True Siren,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d0cOkz2B,comment-id=000300000000000100000001,timestamp=2015-02-26T23:46:12.614+0000)

ahri is neither a burst mage nor has an instant stun

Big LincolnFeb 27, 20154 votes

so Veigar missed his stun and you didn't blow him up in the 10+ seconds of downtime?

he's a squishy immobile mage, he doesn't get the option to jump half the screen away like zed and ahri

Seth LightheartFeb 27, 20151 votes

And he still ton a metric ton of damage. Even more this patch.

Big LincolnFeb 27, 20156 votes

He lost direct damage to his ultimate.

That isn't "even more damage" and if you're letting him free farm you deserve to lose

Not to mention that everyone else still has the same 100-0 potential Veigar has. But guess what? They get it way sooner, and with mobility to boot.

Seth LightheartFeb 27, 20151 votes

Get over yourself. These changes are not going to break him, he now has some counter play. The instant 100-0 stun was silly, no one else could do that.

Big LincolnFeb 27, 20152 votes

Did I say it was going to break him? No. But it's a nerf.

His stun still had a cast time; one of the longer ones actually. Aside from it normally being obvious that he's moving in to try and stun you (unless you're already in his area of presence/moving in on him), its counter play was more tactical than strategic, and a champion who is the epitome of kill or be killed seems entirely fair to me. Whoever plays better gets the gold. He doesn't get to teleport back to his turret after going all-in on you, and he doesn't let you get away with a mistake. Balance.

Some counterplay is more about playing smart when you're in somebody's threat range and not about being given forty warning signs that someone's about to do something. And that's okay.

DomainSpecificFeb 27, 20152 votes

You know? You can also item 3157 Veigar's ultimate if you time it correctly.

flibitydooFeb 27, 20152 votes

Other champions having zero counterplay mechanics does not justify a champion having a zero counterplay mechanics.

Just like how the Nazis killing 6 million jewish people does not give you the right to kill another 6 million jewish people.

This from a fallacy perspective that is also known as "appeal to common practice" where just because everyone else is doing it, does not make it correct or ethical.

BetaDude40Feb 27, 20151 votes

No, that's not what that is. Appeal to common practice is like saying "A lot of people have X, so therefore X is good" or "Nobody uses Y, so Y must be really flipping terrible". The first analogy you made somewhat followed this, but the second one about Nazis and Jews, I mean what the fuck?

What Riot is doing is they're contradicting themselves. Should Veigar be punished for having no "counterplay" (which is VERY CLEARLY the reason they nerfed his E) when other champions are breaking even more rules that Riot themselves have shown they will not tolerate with Veigar??

flibitydooFeb 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No, that's not what that is. Appeal to common practice is like saying "A lot of people have X, so therefore X is good" or "Nobody uses Y, so Y must be really flipping terrible". The first analogy you made somewhat followed this, but the second one about Nazis and Jews, I mean what the fuck?

What Riot is doing is they're contradicting themselves. Should Veigar be punished for having no "counterplay" (which is VERY CLEARLY the reason they nerfed his E) when other champions are breaking even more rules that Riot themselves have shown they will not tolerate with Veigar??

Could you possibly list some examples? Preferably not these ones because I've already explained why these assassins have counterplay.

Annie has a smoke telegraphing when she has a stun up, and you can also left click her to see how many stacks of pyromania she has

Lissandra's hard stun is on a 550 targeted cast range and her total burst is a 2.5 ap burst combo (3.0 if you throw an extra Q) and this is of course using claw offensively

Zed has zero hard cc during his burst. You can kill him, stun him, (or do something defensive like activate seraphs) once he ults you.

Kha'zix has zero hard cc during his burst, and is dependant ever since the nerfs for his target to be isolated away from everything including minions

Rengar's ult has a warning indicator, he has no innate stickiness unless you are in a bush and his E is a skillshot that if used in place of empowered Q cuts into his damage output

Leblanc does not have any hard cc, you can stun her, burst her down, or do something defensive (like activate zhonyas) when she goes in

Fiddlestick's ultimate has a channel time during which he is immobile and if disrupted, cancels his ultimate putting it on cooldown. Katarina also has a channeled ultimate that can be stopped with hard cc, she also has no cc so you are free to move out of it or take other action to defend yourself from her

Yasuo needs to land a knockup to use his ultimate to assassinate which requires the assistance of a teammate, or otherwise his skillshot knockup is telegraphed.

Yi has no cc, Fiora has no cc, Ezreal has no cc, Nidalee has no cc, Twitch has one slow but you are free to do anything else stop him when he goes in on you

Talon has no hard cc during his burst, and has no disengage tools once he goes in

Pantheon's hard stun is 600 range and has no other form of cc beyond his very hard to land, massive delay, massively telegraphed ultimate.

Fizz needs to land shark to start assassinating and has no immediate, on demand hard cc to stop you from doing something defensive

Akali has one slow (and that's her only form of cc) and her primary defensive move of stealth is permanently countered by spending 250 gold (at level 9) on the upgraded sweeping trinket.

Viktor has no immediate cc (his one stun is very easy to counter), His Q>autoattack has a very lengthy animation process and the range of all of his spells is below 700.

Wukong has one knockup. then he spins around after you knocking you up, in which you are free to do what ever to protect yourself.

Darius isn't really an assassin, but his only gapcloser is on a 550 range skillshot pull.

Garen isn't really an assassin, but warding bushes (or just not facechecking ever) means he has no reliable method of gapclosing without massively telegraphing his objectives, based on his movements.

Diana needs to land Q to get to use her ult twice. Q thins in width as it travels outwards making it easier to dodge at long range.

While Riven has many dashes, none of them exceed 150 units in range. And to cast all of them takes about 1-2 seconds due to the animations.

Jax isn't really an assassin, but he has one melee ranged aoe stun. This stun lasts for 1 second.

Kassadin has no silence,and he has no stun. You are free to use items/cast spells to fight back. The range of his riftwalk was recently reduced to 450. His ap ratios are 2.0 in his total burst.

Evelynn has one slow. That slow is tied to a 90 second CD ultimate and lasts 2 seconds. You are free to fight/defend yourself at any point during the engagement

ahri is no longer a true assassin. Her hard cc is a skillshot with travel time that may be absorbed by minions/jungle monsters

Xerath is not an assassin. His hard cc is a skillshot with travel time that may also be absorbed by minions.

Elise is more tank now a days than assassin, her one and only cc spell is a dodgeable skillshot with travel time that can be eaten by minions

Lee sin's damage output comes primarily out of Q, ult and melee range basic attacks. If he misses his Q, he loses a large portion of his damage output. The only hard cc in his burst is his ultimate which will always create a gap preventing him from using his melee attacks. Other than that, you are free to use mobility, take defensive action or fight back.

AP blitzrank is dependant on landing his Q. AP amumu is dependant on landing his Q

Teemo's only burst damage ability comes out of his 580 range Q. He has no hard cc to stop you from flashing away.

Nocturne's only hard cc is based on 2 second tether (a 2 second delay)

Syndra's spheres that are launched by her E have a 2500 missile speed.

Orianna has one slightly delayed aoe hard cc spell. It is both telegraphed by the animation and the positioning of her sphere.

Warwick's only (hard) cc is tied to his ultimate (with a 70 second CD), during this period he cannot burst you any faster due to the locked casting animation.

Malzahar's hard cc requires him (a squishy mage) to channel and stand still for 2.5 seconds while he locks his target down. His hard suppression has a 700 unit cast range and usually requires Malz to set up his W and a voidling for optimal damage output.

Now please show me an assassin who like Veigar, also had an " undodgeable (the only way you don't get stunned is if the Veigar misses) hardstun for walking within 1025 units of the champion" (375 radius+ 650 cast range), and a kit that can 100-0 you using only targetted abilities.

Recovery 13Feb 27, 20151 votes

Ryze What about him?

flibitydooFeb 27, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Recovery 13,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d0cOkz2B,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-27T21:39:37.061+0000)

What about him?

His W is a snare (you can still use seraphs/zhonyas/whatever defensive ability you have) with 600 range. He also has no gapcloser (beyond his ultimate which grants flat movespeed) so you can easily see that he's going to try to burst you based on the fact that his only initiation move is "walk up and start casting".

doublelift fgFeb 26, 20151 votes

same for fiora

same for malz

ZahzFeb 27, 20151 votes

you guys are crazy. Veigars ap is gonna stack sooooo fast now that he can kill 2 ppl with one shot for it. Timing his stun will take a lil getting used to but lets face it that isnt anything we havent done on other champs.

DerJabberwockyFeb 27, 20152 votes

If you're sitting below 30% hp near any champion who is bursty you deserve to die in a single hit. With 1000 AP Veigar's q does roughly 600 damage.

DepóngoFeb 27, 20151 votes

Don't forget that with Zed you can easily time the use of QSS and Zhonya's to delete his damage while with Veigar he can pop his ultimate at any moment. You can mistake his ultimate with his Q and he can throw it at you with you reacting either too late or too early, making it way harder to counter it.

Also, you can't use Zhonya's when you're stunned.

Recovery 13Feb 27, 20151 votes

You can definitely QSS while stunned. Its kinda one of the main selling points.

DepóngoFeb 28, 20151 votes

I heard someone say you can't. Well, I'll just edit it.

NarogFeb 27, 20151 votes

get Mercury and veigar just cant get feed. he always had counterplay i mean this is like RIot is doesn't even play the game.

LvI 7 ThreshFeb 27, 20151 votes

Zed is easy to counter.

soulbanana8Feb 27, 20151 votes

Veigar has no real counterplay apart from knowledge. With Zed, you can at least dodge his Q and E with flash. Then again, item 3111 was more than enough to make me dodge Vei's stun.

101100111000Feb 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Veigar has no real counterplay apart from knowledge. With Zed, you can at least dodge his Q and E with flash. Then again, was more than enough to make me dodge Vei's stun.

Burning flash to avoid damage isn't really counterplay to Zed. More like a generic strategy. :^I

And you just said item 3111 made you capable of escaping Veigar's stun. YOu just said Veigar's stun has counterplay, it's just itemized.