Ranged champions can utilize their team better because their allies can help them make distance

Critkeeper··5 votes·345 views

Distance is generally what keeps ranged champions safe and able to do damage consistently-- a lot of their power budget is tied up in their range, so if somehow they are forced into close quarters with a few people then they become far less safe and far riskier. This dynamic is what gives range enough depth to be interesting.

Theoretically, melee champions are never going to be able to utilize their team as well as ranged champions unless a systematic change is made to enable them to do so, and whatever it is it ought to also have enough depth to be interesting.

Here is an example of such a change: Make it so that melee champions are really strong from the front and weak from the rear.

Just like with range, there is a positional dynamic here that makes playing with and against it interesting.

Just like with range, allies can help you keep you in your ideal state by body blocking and using their abilities to keep you from being flanked.

Just like with range, you have the opportunity for skill expression by animation cancelling your attacks and spells-- except instead of doing so to kite your opponent (orb walking), you do it to keep your facing towards the direction where the next instance of damage is originating from.

19 Comments

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

Strong from the front/weak from the rear

How exactly?

Critkeeper2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord smilla,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=czEd4uv9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-08-05T08:53:49.442+0000)

How exactly?

to make them weak from the rear it suffices to make them weaker in general: equal movement speed, base and scaling health, hp5, resists, attack damage and so on as ranged champions (in other words take out the normal stat bonuses melee champions get for being melee)

to make them strong from the front the strength must be high enough to equalize and then go above and beyond the overall nerf above: 14% + 2% per level damage reduction from the front. 7% + 1% per level tenacity from the front.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

to make them weak from the rear it suffices to make them weaker in general: equal movement speed, base and scaling health, hp5, resists, attack damage and so on as ranged champions (in other words take out the normal stat bonuses melee champions get for being melee)

to make them strong from the front the strength must be high enough to equalize and then go above and beyond the overall nerf above: 14% + 2% per level damage reduction from the front. 7% + 1% per level tenacity from the front.

ok... so... what about tank items then? there is a huge difference between "let's make them stronger" and "if you don't play against them this very specific way you lose" that is not interesting and it's actually dumb, specially when every melee champion is so different fro each other

Critkeeper2 votes

{quoted}

ok... so... what about tank items then? there is a huge difference between "let's make them stronger" and "if you don't play against them this very specific way you lose" that is not interesting and it's actually dumb, specially when every melee champion is so different fro each other

There is obviously a difference between "make them stronger" and "if you don't play against them in a specific way you lose", so that goes without saying. In fact those two things have nothing to do with eachother, so I don't see your point-- but i'll try to interpret what you may have meant:

My intention isn't to make them stronger, but to keep their overall strength equal. The base health and armor difference between ranged and melee champions is a pittance, though the scaling health difference can be quite large depending on the champions; the hp5 difference is fairly small; the movement speed difference is actually pretty substantial; the base attack damage difference is fairly noticeable early game; really if you just take all the little stats that melee champions get for being melee it comes out to quite a lot, though its hard to appreciate because it isn't focused into any one area.

So i'm suggesting we just remove all that spread out strength and focus it into one single area.

As for "if you don't play against them in a specific way you lose"-- thats basically what ranged champions are anyway. If you don't deny the ranged champion-- if you just stand in their range, you will just lose. I don't see anything wrong with giving melee champions a similar dynamic. All it really does is makes team fights a little less about the range game played against and with ranged champions and more of a blend between that and the new flanking game played with and against melee champions.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

There is obviously a difference between "make them stronger" and "if you don't play against them in a specific way you lose", so that goes without saying. In fact those two things have nothing to do with eachother, so I don't see your point-- but i'll try to interpret what you may have meant:

My intention isn't to make them stronger, but to keep their overall strength equal. The base health and armor difference between ranged and melee champions is a pittance, though the scaling health difference can be quite large depending on the champions; the hp5 difference is fairly small; the movement speed difference is actually pretty substantial; really if you just take all the little stats that melee champions get for being melee it comes out to quite a lot, though its hard to appreciate because it isn't focused into any one area.

So i'm suggesting we just remove all that spread out strength and focus it into one single area.

As for "if you don't play against them in a specific way you lose"-- thats basically what ranged champions are anyway. If you don't deny the ranged champion-- if you just stand in their range, you will just lose. I don't see anything wrong with giving melee champions a similar dynamic. All it really does is makes team fights a little less about the range game played against and with ranged champions and more of a blend between that and the new flanking game played with and against melee champions.

no they are not. Sorry but thanks for showing your bias. You are making them stronger by giving them FREE tenacity and FREE damage reduction that then they can get on top of whatever the tank items give. Also you are making it so that you are relying on the way champions are facing which they can switch from facing backwards to fowards literally with a single click and pretty much instantly which will also then cause all sorts of "am i actually getting the damage reduction?" and "am i hitting him properly?". How many times have you seen a Cass ult and be "how did i not stun him?" or "how did that stun me!?"

You can play around ranged champions in so many different ways it's not even funny. You can flank them, you just have a good frontline and run towards them, you can catch them. You seem to be hugely underestimating how much damage is actually being reduced by your little formula. I would kill to have 50% of any damage done to me reduce from just one direction without even needing to build any resistances at all at lvl 18. I would love to have a 16% damage reduction from the get go so i can just completely ignore my lane opponent specially when we have things like item 1054, specially since once again. Every single melee champion is different. Oh look i am a fiora i can just lifesteal like crazy, i am Trynd i can just Q to restore my HP, i am nasus who has literally built in sustain. It'll just make it so that everyone who has sustain built into their kits to literally do not give a single damn about anyone. You are severely overestimating how much extra stats melee gets vs ranged

Critkeeper2 votes

{quoted}

no they are not. Sorry but thanks for showing your bias. You are making them stronger by giving them FREE tenacity and FREE damage reduction that then they can get on top of whatever the tank items give. Also you are making it so that you are relying on the way champions are facing which they can switch from facing backwards to fowards literally with a single click and pretty much instantly which will also then cause all sorts of "am i actually getting the damage reduction?" and "am i hitting him properly?". How many times have you seen a Cass ult and be "how did i not stun him?" or "how did that stun me!?"

You can play around ranged champions in so many different ways it's not even funny. You can flank them, you just have a good frontline and run towards them, you can catch them. You seem to be hugely underestimating how much damage is actually being reduced by your little formula. I would kill to have 50% of any damage done to me reduce from just one direction without even needing to build any resistances at all at lvl 18. I would love to have a 16% damage reduction from the get go so i can just completely ignore my lane opponent specially when we have things like item 1054, specially since once again. Every single melee champion is different. Oh look i am a fiora i can just lifesteal like crazy, i am Trynd i can just Q to restore my HP, i am nasus who has literally built in sustain. It'll just make it so that everyone who has sustain built into their kits to literally do not give a single damn about anyone. You are severely overestimating how much extra stats melee gets vs ranged

putting the word free on something doesn't mean its free if it has a cost associated with it

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

putting the word free on something doesn't mean its free if it has a cost associated with it

what cost? a clunky thing that the game isn't even balanced around? yeah let's put power into that, that sure sounds like a great idea!

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

And why exactly should range just get range FREE on top of nearly the same stats as melees? This whole game is such a fucking clownfiesta because riot is unwilling or unable to actually give rangea drawback. Every fucking range champ gets CC, extra range on top of extra range, damage on top of damage, a bitch slave keeping them alive, the biggest variety of items possible even if most of them deny it and say they "can't build it because no dmg hurr durr" pls look at the jhin and what item he built oh wait he built fucking MAW and has been UNFUCKING KILLABLE for a 500 AP vlad while two shotting me. BUT ME MUST BUILD CRIT. Seriously melees are so shit right now, the worst state EVER. The only thing keeping melees viable is their snowbally nature and i'm sure riot finds a way to deny that as well. Why does nasus trynd and fiora have all the bullshit you mentioned? Exactly because range is such a huge advantage that we NEED kits like fiora, yasuo etc. so that melees are even viable.

Edit: Some rant mistakes happened here: -*the jhin from my last game -and don't come up with how jhin is TOTALLY different from every other character. Every other ranged champ can afford a defensive item but supports are ridiculous enough on top of draintranking that it's outright not needed.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

And why exactly should range just get range FREE on top of nearly the same stats as melees? This whole game is such a fucking clownfiesta because riot is unwilling or unable to actually give rangea drawback. Every fucking range champ gets CC, extra range on top of extra range, damage on top of damage, a bitch slave keeping them alive, the biggest variety of items possible even if most of them deny it and say they "can't build it because no dmg hurr durr" pls look at the jhin and what item he built oh wait he built fucking MAW and has been UNFUCKING KILLABLE for a 500 AP vlad while two shotting me. BUT ME MUST BUILD CRIT. Seriously melees are so shit right now, the worst state EVER. The only thing keeping melees viable is their snowbally nature and i'm sure riot finds a way to deny that as well. Why does nasus trynd and fiora have all the bullshit you mentioned? Exactly because range is such a huge advantage that we NEED kits like fiora, yasuo etc. so that melees are even viable.

Edit: Some rant mistakes happened here: -*the jhin from my last game -and don't come up with how jhin is TOTALLY different from every other character. Every other ranged champ can afford a defensive item but supports are ridiculous enough on top of draintranking that it's outright not needed.

yeah some melees are in a bad spot... just like how some ranged champions are in a bad spot... sorry but what does this particular part of the comment even accomplishes? Ezreal is in a bad spot, Lucian is in a niche but generally bad spot. Jinx is not in a good spot. Heimer is not in a good spot. Ranged champions just like melee champions can be in good spots and in terrible ones. So this comment shows nothing but bias.

Every ranged champ gets CC? sorry but what? Where is my CC as Ezreal, where is my CC as ranged mode Jayce, where is my CC as lucian. Yes some of them do get CC but it's mostly slows extremely few actually get hard CCs and most of them are either tied to ultimates or telegraphed or are because they are actually utility centric champions! Using your logic why does every single melee champion get CC? sorry but once again what is the point of this comment other than to show your bias?

The entire drawback of ranged champions, regardless of who they are is that if someone gets on top of them, they are dead more often than not and they are really unable to do much about it since once again, most of their CC is soft CC not hard CC. Unless like i already said you are a utility centric champion. Sorry you cannot faceroll your keyboard and kill every single ranged champion in the game with no effort.

Sorry but if you are getting two shot by a Jhin he either is insanely fed and you are building like absolute garbage. He has a Maw? big deal! get a void staff. The shield is annoying? then why are you blowing everything on him when you know the shield is available? that's you missplaying and not Jhin being broken. Jhin is not even in a good spot right now.

What does Nasus and Fiora have that i mentioned? sustain? oh gods why do a champion have built in sustain? i mean it's not like there are several champions in the game with built in sustain... what is the point of this again? wasting time? nothing better to write?

You have shown nothing but bias and complete lack of understanding of basic game mechanics. TRY AGAIN

Joxcab1 votes

[deleted]

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

The irony of you telling others they don't understand, let alone to try again, is massively amusing when you're the one in the dark here.

Ezreal abused every single Sheen item and is kept weak specifically because of his E blink. Lucian absolutely dominates every single time he's even SLIGHTLY allowed to be the slightest bit viable because of his versatility. Jinx is a hypercarry in a short game meta. Heimer is intentionally kept weak because he's fucking cancer because of his range and autonomous playstyle.

Ezreal can grab Iceborn for that purpose. Jayce isn't in range of any threats to need CC. You have no excuse to be in range of a threat as Lucian.

Melees need CC to shut down said range because otherwise the range just runs as the melee does and makes it impossible for the melee to hit them since they have to stop to auto and by that time the ranged runs away.

Except that's not how it actually works. You jump on a ranged champion, do jackshit, then die. That's how things work currently.

Nice strawman though, sure, of course we want to faceroll. eyeroll whatever you need to tell yourself pal.

Void Staff isn't going to help against the shield. Also you seem to not realize to trigger Maw you need to blow your entire combo anyways.

Jhin is actually quite good right now, and is among the top ADCs, but keep fooling yourself pal.

Ah yes, lifesteal, the other way ranged ADCs can survive through everything assuming the enemy somehow got through Exhaust, Redemption, Locket, CC, and the range difference.

oh how cute now you are following me around. How cute

Joxcab1 votes

[deleted]

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Oh cute, no actual response. Not that you ever had any. Go back to your playground.

how cute, you are replying to me

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

Theoretically, melee champions are never going to be able to utilize their team as well as ranged champions unless a systematic change is made to enable them to do so, and whatever it is it ought to also have enough depth to be interesting.

Which is why melee champions are designed about enabling allies themself (tanks), dueling (juggs, skirmishers), ruining ranged champions (assassins), or combinations of all the above (divers).

i cant move wtf1 votes

I think League should just move towards making champions more unique and defined which they already seem to be doing. A melee champion that's weak to its back but strong to the front sounds worth exploring. I don't think broadly redesigning whole classes of champions is the way to go though.

Ahristocats1 votes

Ivern

Big Lincoln1 votes

strong from the front and weak from the rear

isn't Taric already like that hehe

deadlychuck1 votes

The way you propose this advantage really doesn't consider that melee champions can utilize their team to close the gap on opponents too.

If you have a team with you, then you're going to have a much easier time, by taking advantage of their CC tools, to keep in range of an enemy. The disadvantage comes more from the high damage output which lowers total time of the fights, forcing the melee to use their gap closing tools for initiation, else get shred to ribbons, before you can get into attack range, rather than sticking power.

The better solution would be to actually reduce damage output.

Critkeeper1 votes

{quoted}

The way you propose this advantage really doesn't consider that melee champions can utilize their team to close the gap on opponents too.

If you have a team with you, then you're going to have a much easier time, by taking advantage of their CC tools, to keep in range of an enemy. The disadvantage comes more from the high damage output which lowers total time of the fights, forcing the melee to use their gap closing tools for initiation, else get shred to ribbons, before you can get into attack range, rather than sticking power.

The better solution would be to actually reduce damage output.

then the nature of the of strength that the melee champion ought to have from the front would probably need to be something like damage reduction-- which would be tantamount to reducing damage output except for when the melee champion is flanked hard (which I think is fair)

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