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Sejuani Nerfs incoming

Talamare··11 votes·2,952 views

Seriously Riot, Why are you nerfing her early game

Arctic Assault [ Q ] Damage changed from 40 / 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 (+0.4 AP) (+ 4 / 6 / 8 / 10 / 12% of target’s Max Health) to 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 (+0.4 AP)

Flail of the Northern Winds [ W ] Damage on initial hit changed from 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 / 120 (+0.3 AP) to 4 / 6 / 8 / 10 / 12% of target’s Max Health (+3% per 100AP) AoE damage changed from 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240 (+0.6 AP) (+10% Bonus Health) to 40 / 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 (+0.6 AP) (+ 4 / 6 / 8 / 10 / 12% of Total Health)

Now these are definitely buffs to her late game, but she will actually end up doing less damage in her first few levels One of the biggest offenders is the fact her W % HP Damage scales instead of it being a flat amount

Example of fighting Gromp at level 2 1600 Gromp HP 725 (668+36+3%)(668 base, 57 bonus) Sejuani HP

You have Arctic Assault and Flail Previous = (40 + (64)4% of Gromps HP) + (40 + 80 + (5.7)10% of your bonus HP) Total Damage = 104 + 125 = 229.7

After = 80 + ( (64)4% of Gromps HP + 40 + (29)4% of total HP) Total Damage = 213

She needs HELP clearing the new jungle, not nerfs

37 Comments

Ecchi Gorira7 votes

I fail to see how this is a buff to Sejuani. Her first clear is nerfed and the only thing that makes her dangerous pre 6 is nerfed too. What kind of "permafrost" lasts for 1.5 sec? And the damage nerf on her E makes it impossible to level first. So rushing 40%cdr for E is out of the picture too.

Q is useless as well now. Can only obviously leveled last.

W is really strong late game but good luck sticking on target with that kind of E.

Overall horrible design decision. Leave Sejuani as she is now. She is in a DECENT spot. DON"T try to fix what's not broken. History proves you are kinda bad at fixing things.

Tengrichan3 votes

I fail to see how this is a buff to Sejuani. Her first clear is nerfed and the only thing that makes her dangerous pre 6 is nerfed too. What kind of "permafrost" lasts for 1.5 sec? And the damage nerf on her E makes it impossible to level first. So rushing 40%cdr for E is out of the picture too.

Q is useless as well now. Can only obviously leveled last.

W is really strong late game but good luck sticking on target with that kind of E.

Overall horrible design decision. Leave Sejuani as she is now. She is in a DECENT spot. DON"T try to fix what's not broken. History proves you are kinda bad at fixing things.

This ^. Why not wait for a while before you do any changes to her?

MattAkhavan1 votes

Her first clear really won't be effected too much. She already has a weaker first clear than most but the changes will hardly make a huge difference in her first clear. The damage nerf to permafrost is only 20 base damage from level 2-5 totaling only 80 base damage. Her ratios are the same, so she will still do most of her damage with permafrost.

Rushing 40% CDR will give permafrost something like 3.5 second cool down in between each cast which is insanely low for such a high damage spell. That's pretty damn good if you ask me

Arctic assault is still maxed second because it provides a small aoe cc/knockup. at 40% CDr it's around 6.5 second cooldown. Despite losing % health on artic assault it went up in base damage evening out the damage lost my permafrost.

I think the changes will make sej a competitive jungler in the new jungle, especially because it's pretty easy to hit 40% CDR with her with the new jungle items. If you combine perma frost with stalkers blade you have a 3.5 second allowing for another permafrost to be cast making it 5 seconds of being slowed 50-70%. Not to shabby to me.

I will probably come back here when the changes go live on PBE, and let you know if i change my stance on the buffs/nerfs

Ecchi Gorira2 votes

Her first clear really won't be effected too much. She already has a weaker first clear than most but the changes will hardly make a huge difference in her first clear. The damage nerf to permafrost is only 20 base damage from level 2-5 totaling only 80 base damage. Her ratios are the same, so she will still do most of her damage with permafrost.

Rushing 40% CDR will give permafrost something like 3.5 second cool down in between each cast which is insanely low for such a high damage spell. That's pretty damn good if you ask me

Arctic assault is still maxed second because it provides a small aoe cc/knockup. at 40% CDr it's around 6.5 second cooldown. Despite losing % health on artic assault it went up in base damage evening out the damage lost my permafrost.

I think the changes will make sej a competitive jungler in the new jungle, especially because it's pretty easy to hit 40% CDR with her with the new jungle items. If you combine perma frost with stalkers blade you have a 3.5 second allowing for another permafrost to be cast making it 5 seconds of being slowed 50-70%. Not to shabby to me.

I will probably come back here when the changes go live on PBE, and let you know if i change my stance on the buffs/nerfs

These changes feel like they are forcing W to be maxed first. If you max E first (or Q?!) you simple won't be a threat until mid/late game.

If you max W first you will lack CC for ganking. So unless you somehow manage to find a way to stick on target for 4 seconds, the W buff is actually enough to justify the overall nerf. Realistically speaking though, W is mainly used to farm and not for ganking. Heck I don't even use W for ganking unless I barely miss my Q and need to apply frost.

E changes are mid/late game focused. Sejuani already had that hence the unnecessary nerf.

The only way to minimize the nerf impact is to distribute points to W and E equally but then we throw diversity out of the window.

Khell DarkWolf3 votes

Its going to hurt, because its going to affect two aspects to the equation:

  • Jungle Clears
  • Skirmish/team fights

Q Losing the %percent HP damage is going to hurt initial engagements for damage (and not punish tanks for diving your team) and also harm her clearing of jungle camps with it (% percent HP damage onto jungle camps in addition to base damage does help)

W already feels clunky because how slow it feels for her to swing the flail to even get that damage to proc onto targets. Factor that in while trying to chase someone or clearing a camp as it now has to be the first auto attack to get old Q's percent damage and have to wait 11 seconds (7 base cooldown + 4 seconds to finish swinging the flail animation to restart the cooldown which doesn't factor in a longer indirect cooldown if you don't manage to autoattack fast enough or they outrun you) as opposed to Q's 11 second cooldown that starts its cooldown refresh the moment you use it. I still haven't comment on the reduced damage from Flail either to boot. >_>

And E, oh hell.

yeah, 11 seconds to 6 seconds may look great on paper but you're not factoring not just the reduced damage but it is the reduced and now static slow duration.

1.5 seconds is such a short and narrow time window for a slow, I thought the whole point for her was to be able to help peel and get targets to sit still long enough for teammates to join in.

For someone that used to be known as frosting (slowing) people down and has an ability (named after it) that enhanced it, its starting to get further and further blurred.

Quepha3 votes

ha ha what is riot even thinking? sejuani is a tanky warrior that runs in fear from any enemy champion without her allies backing her up she barely survives in the jungle, certainly not with enough health to try and gank and the way her kit is designed makes her completely useless as a laner so she doesn't have any other roles to fall back on if you want to play sejuani however, her winrate still stays good because her ult is so strong and she can get her team to win lategame fights with all her cc. tank champions are currently lategame-focused supports because they can't tank without items and have no damage no matter what they do.

Quepha3 votes

actually, overall the changes look like they're in the right direction for sejuani, although i think 1.5s is a little low for permafrost, 2 would be better considering people are used to leveling permafrost first or second and having a really long duration on the slow. sejuani really should get MUCH more damage from leveling w over other abilities and that really isn't true right now. furthermore, adding to slow duration AND strength AND almost as much damage on E as W made it feel like E was scaling way too hard per skill point.

Finally, it's the right thing to move both hp ratios to W and change sej's hp ratio from bonus to total so that, when you're maxing anything but W, the w damage still stays somewhat relevant because a current low level W feels completely useless both with the upfront burst and the spin afterwards when it's her only ability that only deals damage.

not sure about having the scaling ratios though, that seems to make her scale way too hard into late game when she already feels like someone who's way too weak early for a barbarian queen.

Talamare1 votes

actually, overall the changes look like they're in the right direction for sejuani, although i think 1.5s is a little low for permafrost, 2 would be better considering people are used to leveling permafrost first or second and having a really long duration on the slow. sejuani really should get MUCH more damage from leveling w over other abilities and that really isn't true right now. furthermore, adding to slow duration AND strength AND almost as much damage on E as W made it feel like E was scaling way too hard per skill point.

Finally, it's the right thing to move both hp ratios to W and change sej's hp ratio from bonus to total so that, when you're maxing anything but W, the w damage still stays somewhat relevant because a current low level W feels completely useless both with the upfront burst and the spin afterwards when it's her only ability that only deals damage.

not sure about having the scaling ratios though, that seems to make her scale way too hard into late game when she already feels like someone who's way too weak early for a barbarian queen.

Overall the changes are not really bad or wrong direction, we just question some of them and feel a few of them could be slightly better implemented

Quepha1 votes

Overall the changes are not really bad or wrong direction, we just question some of them and feel a few of them could be slightly better implemented

according to riot it's supposed to be a buff and you chose to do the math for gromp, her worst camp by a wide margin at a point in the game before she has a lot of her damage, so i'm still inclined to believe that these changes will overall help her clear speed. Or at least when riot goes through testing them and rebalances the numbers she will end up better than currently.

Talamare2 votes

Overall the changes are not really bad or wrong direction, we just question some of them and feel a few of them could be slightly better implemented

according to riot it's supposed to be a buff and you chose to do the math for gromp, her worst camp by a wide margin at a point in the game before she has a lot of her damage, so i'm still inclined to believe that these changes will overall help her clear speed. Or at least when riot goes through testing them and rebalances the numbers she will end up better than currently.

While true that I did the math for Gromp, the total difference doesn't change since in both they deal equal amount of damage of the targets max hp

No matter if its Gromp or Raptors, Old Level 1~2 Sejuani is stronger than the new one by about 16 damage The only real way to change these figures since the AP ratio is the same is to have basically higher health, so like flat hp runes or something which is also suboptimal

Quepha1 votes

While true that I did the math for Gromp, the total difference doesn't change since in both they deal equal amount of damage of the targets max hp

except on lower hp targets she is hitting everything with the ratio of her total hp which is like 5x the old damage. sejuani is still much better against multiple targets.

Talamare3 votes

While true that I did the math for Gromp, the total difference doesn't change since in both they deal equal amount of damage of the targets max hp

except on lower hp targets she is hitting everything with the ratio of her total hp which is like 5x the old damage. sejuani is still much better against multiple targets.

No... sigh

Old Sejuani on the 250 hp raptor = 175 New Sejuani on the 250 hp raptor = 159

Her being Total HP is awesome, except they felt the need to make it 4% of her total HP at rank 1, That combined with the reduction of flat damage means it does less damage

I have suggested they just make it 12% of her total hp at rank 1, since it really does not need to be scaled... This would result in a small buff to her level 1~2 clear speed, about 30 more damage

and again, this is awesome for late game... She will ramp up really well into late game but again, she really needs a bit of love in her early game... not nerfs to it...

Grethorian3 votes

For all of you who think that is a buff:

The % enemy hp damage just shifted from q to to w so no change.

W initial hit loost 40 – 120 Damage Q gained 40 – 100 so – 20 Damage overall.

W AoE lost 40 – 80 Damage and gained 12% base Hp and 2% bonus hp so after level 4 you get the 80 damage back and gain 185 Damage (+2% bonus hp) at Level 18

E Lost 80 Damage and 1 Second slow for the cooldown.

So at 18 you have 185 – (20 + 80) = 85 Damage more

85 More damage that can be avoided by simply walking or flashing or kalistaing away VS

  • 100 instant damage at the begin of a fight and 1 second slow to hold people in the AoE

For me its Clearly a nerf.

MattAkhavan1 votes

you gain more than 100 damage from permafrosting twice as fast. 3.5 seconds with 40%.

Chortle3 votes

Pretty sure this was their way to nerf AP Sej but try to buff jungle Sej.

Pretty fail for both tbh

Tengrichan3 votes

Pretty sure this was their way to nerf AP Sej but try to buff jungle Sej.

Pretty fail for both tbh

They always fail with stuff like this.

MattAkhavan1 votes

These changes aren't changing AP sej too much because most of her damage is from ult + perma frost. The lower cool down on perma frost will probably output more damage, just not in one huge burst. The AP ratios are the same and you are only losing 20 base damage from lvl 2-5. The base damage lost in permafrost is made up by the additional damage on arctic assault. The only thing Sej is really losing is the % damage on arctic assault, and I don't think it's that big of a deal yet.

of course I haven't played with the changes on PBE yet so I can't say for sure that the missing % damage on arctic assault and the reduced slow on permafrost is too detrimental to her kit, but I don't think it will be.

zSeraph3 votes

Riot, you can fix her damage, but please turn back slow of her skill E to 2.5s. Skill R+E (+Q) is main reason for I play her :((

The Archive3 votes

A big problem with this is putting emphasis on W without making W any less awkward to hit with.

And then there's the fact that it's overall a nerf. :|

Talamare2 votes

I do admit it does feel really difficult to hit people with her W auto attack, maybe they should make it so that she gains increased auto attack range for it, Similar to how Wukong's Q increases its range by 125.

Tristana Hentai2 votes

i liked ap Sejuani though...it wasn't good but it was fun :(

ShemsuHor2 votes

You missed a couple tings mon. You should never go for gromp at level two... Start gromp with smite and W so your constantly AoEing the jungle like a good. Your clear as a whole will be much faster. level 1 you're getting all % damage so thats the jungle buff but its also a huge buff to sej team fight because all her % is in an aoe rather than hitting 1 target for a %.

I feel like 80% of the people commenting dont play sej.

Talamare3 votes

You missed a couple tings mon. You should never go for gromp at level two... Start gromp with smite and W so your constantly AoEing the jungle like a good. Your clear as a whole will be much faster. level 1 you're getting all % damage so thats the jungle buff but its also a huge buff to sej team fight because all her % is in an aoe rather than hitting 1 target for a %.

I feel like 80% of the people commenting dont play sej.

Incorrect... They are changing so that the first auto on W is triggers the % hp damage... so no not everyone in an AoE around her and as someone has mentioned before actually hitting that first W hit in teamfights is actually pretty tricky and without hitting it your overall damage overtime goes down Also it REALLY DOES NOT MATTER where you start, it can be the 2000 hp Blue or the 250 hp Raptor... She does less damage at rank 1...

If she does less damage it doesn't make your clear faster regardless of who or what you smite, in a mirror match old Sej vs New Sej - Old Sej will be faster early game because she does more damage.......

We are happy that Riot is looking at Sejuani, but they are twisting and bending her numbers in a poor manner. We just want to potentially enlighten them so they can curve it out slightly better

Quepha1 votes

Incorrect... They are changing so that the first auto on W is triggers the % hp damage... so no not everyone in an AoE around her

the initial hit IS an aoe.

ShemsuHor1 votes

This is a super dead post but i never responded before. 2 things 1: Sej does do aoe % of hp and its more than before since its her own. 2: "FIRST CAST: Sejuani's next basic attack deals bonus magic damage to the target and nearby enemies" its a point blank effect and receives the 1/3 slow+spell vamp. SO actually she has 2 aoe's off of that now.

Velasan2 votes

It could be that she's meant to be played top lane and not jungle and these changes are meant to move toward that direction.

Rockman2 votes

[deleted]

Duke Anax1 votes

More of a shift, or a slight buff if anything.

The reduced cooldown means you can use it more often, so it actually deals more damage.

Not sure if two short slows are btter or worse than one long slow though.

Learn 2 Swim1 votes

lee sin main detected

Talamare1 votes

lee sin main detected

That makes no sense... I did math to prove that the changes are going to make her worse in the jungle at low levels

I want her to be able to do better in the jungle at low levels, not be worse at it...

It's REALLY easy to fix too, either remove the scaling of total hp and make it constantly 12% OR scale it 1% per rank or 8/9/10/11/12%

Talamare1 votes

Flat 12% = about 58 more damage or about 40 more damage than before her change Scaling % = about 29 more damage or about 12 more damage than before her change

I personally vote for the flat 12% for both the simplicity and the fact she needs the love

Raja Chachki1 votes

Source?

Gigahappytown1 votes

Lmfao ap sejuani was a fucking joke that could get shut down early game and it died out WHY ARE THEY NERFING HER TRUE ROLE? THERES A EASY WAY TO FIX THIS WITHOUT MAKING HER ALREADY GARBAGE CLEAR EVEN WORSE!!!

TEKadeo1 votes

I don't mind making her W her bread and butter, this will help her jungle clear time if leveled first by a significant margin (maybe not at level 1 but early game will be better). I don't feel like her E needed to be changed at all though, let her keep her slow duration and the damage with the old cooldown. It works for her. You have to build CDR on her anyway and it is a serious nerf imo.

If you want to change something, how about taking her mana cost on Q down like Gragas' charge? If you hit a target with it, it doesnt cost so damn much. And I LOVE the suggestion of making her initial hit of W having extended range. Really, it would make more sense if the whole duration had increased range. But okay.

She really needs early game power and some form of dueling ability to be relevant, period. I use her and people appreciate her late game, but getting destroyed early isn't a fun time, and counter junglers are her death.

deadlychuck1 votes

So... back to the pre-rerelease sejuani (which let's be honest basically changed 1 skill). Though now instead of being just a nerfed amumu, now she will be amumu. With a easy to use Q harder to use R, compared to a harder to use Q and easy to use R.

Seriously Amumu and Sejuani are very very very similar. Look at each of their skills 1 to 1, you will see the similarities. They use to have the same base stats (the only difference was base mana and MP5), base damages, ratios, mana costs, and utility. I personally haven't checked the stats of the two recently, I'd imagine that they are still very similar...

SmokingPuffin1 votes

I'm pretty excited about the idea of this Sejuani mini-rework. Much better W for most of the game, it's worth the less good E.

I do worry about the first clear numbers here, but we do have to expect that Sejuani will stay sucky on first clear in whatever design they end up picking.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

In a ~12 second fight she can cast it 3 times instead of 2, resulting in a gain of 20 damage and slowing for 0.5 less seconds total

The numbers do need adjusting but I can see where theyre going with it

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