New Infinity Edge converts 20% of crit damage into true damage? Hello, 40% true damage Tryndamere.

darkdill·May 3, 2018·48 votes·18,200 views

Bad idea, Riot. You're gonna make Tryndamere with Conqueror impossible to fight because no one will survive him, and building armor to counter him will become stupid.

Try again. Don't do the whole "We'll just nerf Tryndamere" thing; try again on Infinity Edge.

EDIT: This isn't just about Tryndamere. This is about how Riot is adding ANOTHER source of true damage, making armor builds even more laughable. Combined with all the sources of %-health damage out there these days, as well as the upcoming change to the Last Whisper items, and tanks are not going to have their survivability anymore.

72 Comments

remakoroMay 3, 201819 votes

Be tank. Have 300 Armor. Take the same DMG as if you had 80 armor today. Cant wait to play some tank Malphite

SaiannaMay 4, 20181 votes

ADCs love eating tanks inbetween meals :D

Yaśuo MainMay 3, 201814 votes

They removed 250% crit damage for a reason.

Child of the PitMay 3, 20189 votes

Fuck the 50% bonus dmg, at least you can counter it with Randuins, you can't counter These crit abusers with armor, they will just pierce trough it, neither with HP stacking, because their damage is so high they will just give you 500 DMG autos instead of 150 Physicall and 200 True damage autos...

DeusVultMay 3, 20184 votes

because 250% crit was an abusrd mechanic that didnt deserve to live as long as it did

it made it so that a crit user could equally kill squishies and tanks simply through raw damage

Reducing crit numbers helps against squishies but it makes the armor vs DPS arms race feel even worse for tanks, as there is literally nothing that you can build late game to mitigate damage.

item 3153 - Price buff item 3035 + item 3036 item 3033 - returned to total armor pen item 3031 True damage crits

Even randuins which is supposed to be the anti crit item will barely help vs crit users.

Cloud273May 3, 201813 votes

No I'm perfectly fine with nerfing Tryndamere. F*ck that champ anyways.

Teridax68May 3, 20189 votes

That's not what the OP is saying, they're saying the changes are likely to either buff Tryndamere, or at least make him even more unhealthy, because in addition to remaining extremely reliant on his random crit innate, he will be able to rush Infinity Edge as his sole crit item and become able to deal huge amounts of true damage with it and Conqueror. He will become more difficult to play against as a tanky champion, because armor purchases will become much less effective against him.

darkdillMay 3, 20187 votes

This.

It's primarily that I don't like how Riot is making armor even more laughable.

SteelflameMay 3, 20182 votes

I'm betting it will still be PD before the IE. IE is EXTREMELY gold inefficient unless you are backing it with at least 25% crit chance (You are paying 1100 gold for 1200 gold worth of crit if you have a zeal upgrade (30% crit) already, 600 if only a zeal). Tryn's fury generation is partially dependent on crit, and having no crit chance means he's got slow fury generation, meaning if you ever force him to Q he's got no damage for 5-10 seconds. Sure, Tryn has up to 35% crit innately, but his fury generation scales on his crit chance (2x fury on crit) and AS(More attacks, more fury) effectively, and rushing a IE means he'll have neither of those, so no fury, until way too late in a fight unless you just let him stack it on minions for like 10 seconds before he fights you.

Tryn also used to go ER first item because it was 30% CDR while fury was up which let him stick way better, sure the mana passive was wasted, but ER only cost 200 gold to upgrade from parts, and grants ~200-800 gold in stats for doing so. Because of how his kit worked period, he was casting his skills with most of the CDR in place (Q would be cast while near full, and would use the 30% CDR for it's CD, E is much more accessible with crit+CDR allowing you to chain spins)

Cloud273May 3, 20183 votes

{quoted}

That's not what the OP is saying, they're saying the changes are likely to either buff Tryndamere, or at least make him even more unhealthy, because in addition to remaining extremely reliant on his random crit innate, he will be able to rush Infinity Edge as his sole crit item and become able to deal huge amounts of true damage with it and Conqueror. He will become more difficult to play against as a tanky champion, because armor purchases will become much less effective against him.

Oh I misunderstood sorry. In that case I agree with you OP.

6KEMBE4ORBAMay 3, 20185 votes

It's not 40% true dmg, the build path is way worse, it lost 50% crit dmg, Trynd dosn't need double crit mechanic - by the time he gets the new IE, games are pretty much over + he will go over 100% crit and waste stats/gold, new ER is trash = NO CDR while everyone continues to bath in free CDR way more cost efficient items, increased cost to Zeal items.

All of the item changes are huge, HUGE nerfs to Trynd. They hit him the hardest than any ranged ADC while Riot says that ranged ADCs were the target?

He won't be viable and borderline unplayable past Gold elo.

darkdillMay 3, 20187 votes

Even if that's the case, changing item 3031 to deal true damage is just going to make armor a worse stat than it already is.

SkorchMay 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Even if that's the case, changing to deal true damage is just going to make armor a worse stat than it already is.

ADCs still need to be able to kill tanks. By making Crit overall deal less damage to keep squishies alive, ADCs and champions like them still need to DEAL damage to Tanks. Armor is no different then before, less of the attack is being blocked, but the attack is overall dealing less.

But if you want to just... not build armor i am perfectly okay with that.

darkdillMay 3, 20181 votes

I'm saying that Champions who want to build armor like Rammus or Malphite are going to suffer. And health is no substitute for armor.

LankPantsMay 3, 20186 votes

You realise the fact that IE+Zeal gives him 100% crit chance isn't a nerf because he's losing efficiency right? Getting 100% crit chance off of 1.5 items is efficiency, it doesn't matter if you slightly over 100%. If there were two items you could build for 50% CDR you'd do it, the 10% extra literally doesn't matter.

What this means is that past Tryn's standard core of IE+Zeal upgrade he can build entirely situationally. He can fit 3 whole items+boots into whatever game he's playing. He can go for an early LW into armour, an early QSS into CC, an early GA to stay alive or an early BotRK if he just needs more flat damage. All of this while essentially having his core damage completed at 1.5 items. That's the sort of flexibility that makes a relativity simple champion like Tryn actually good in high elo.

6KEMBE4ORBAMay 3, 20181 votes

Depends of the gains you get for the wasted stat/gold and at what time you get those gains.

It's not efficient and it's a nerf and it's not only about IE- I'm not gonna waste time explaining it to you any further. My previous post is enough.

LankPantsMay 3, 20181 votes

You're gaining up to 1400 gold worth of crit due to your passive crit being doubled. That can't be ignored, as you are trying to. With IE/PD at max fury you lost 1050 gold worth of crit due to being over cap. No matter which way you look at it it is efficient, you still gain 350 gold worth of crit extra from IE's doubling effect meaning with one crit item IE is more efficient on Tryn than any other champion except Yasuo.

IfnethMay 3, 20181 votes

ER gives 20% CDR. It lost its Critical Strike Chance.

6KEMBE4ORBAMay 3, 20182 votes

I know that?

Crit chance removed; It lost at least 10% CDR with the removal of Crit/CDR synergy in Trynd's case and received stuff which he dosn't need like 300 mana and the new lackluster unique passive.

ER is dead for Trynd.

Pierce The VealMay 3, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Bad idea, Riot. You're gonna make Tryndamere with Conqueror impossible to fight because no one will survive him, and building armor to counter him will become stupid.

Try again. Don't do the whole "We'll just nerf Tryndamere" thing; try again on Infinity Edge.

To be fair, it’ll only be 36%, and he can’t build crit without overcapping now. He doesn’t rek squishies as much as before.

If you look at his overall damage:

36% of 2.0 Atk damage is 0.72 x his attack damage as true damage.

Vs 20% of 2.5 atk damage as 0.5 x his attack damage as true damage.

He at best is even in terms of his damage to tanks, and maybe a little up at very high amounts of armor. But against squishies, he has lost damage at all points.

Not to mention, now trynd can’t build crit without overcapping by a ton.

He will be wasting 30% crit to get 100% crit. And the increase in gold cost hurts him too.

darkdillMay 3, 20184 votes

But it means that armor is now useless against him. That's toxic.

Pierce The VealMay 3, 20183 votes

On the contrary. It means super high levels of armor is less useful against him, but armor would still be somewhat useful.

Arguably, it made armor just a tad bit worse when you reach, say, 250+ armor. I could math out the exact point, but it would break even between there and 350 armor.

remakoroMay 3, 20186 votes

https://imgur.com/a/okXNuix

No. It made armor A LOT worse.

VICHEL CHAOSMay 3, 20182 votes

No, you have to take into account the old IE passive as well. You have to compare the 36% (new IE+conqueror) against he 20% multiplied by 1.25 (old IE+Conqueror) or the (lw+20%)*1.25 against the lw+36%. In which case the numbers for low armor are so better with old IE and with even a lot of armor the increase is minimal.

Lets compare numbers of 20% with old IE passive against 36% In the case for 80 armor you get 80.55% (old IE) against 75.47%. A straight 6% damage nerf. In the case for 400 armor (the most extreme case here) you get 45% (old IE) against 48%. this is also a 6.66% damage buff. Keep in mind this is the buff for 400 armor. The break even point stands somewhere between 250 and 350 armor.

Your own math proves you wrong.

remakoroMay 3, 20184 votes

Hmmm dude id be honest Conqueror is still a new addition for me so i considered that + new IE as newest nerf to armor stacking. I totally didnt think about old IE + Conqueror. In that case you are correct.

None of that changes the fact that any true dmg makes armor stacking kinda pointless though. And its open season for true dmg. Conqueror is still a rune that not everyone can or will pick. But together with IE it covers almost every AD user.

VICHEL CHAOSMay 3, 20184 votes

If I were you I wouldnt worry too much about tryndamere and yasuo (the only champions I see building conqueror + IE together, maybe Yi). Their counters have never really been tanks themselves, they will kill them 1v1 regardless or get cced. Yasuo shreds tanks thanks to his ultimate giving him like 43305% armor penetration so the true damage on him is kinda wasted. Now add to that that he gets reduced crit damage and he will really miss the 50% amplification, which is what makes his crits actually pack a punch. As a fun fact, rands + tabi + yasuo passive = 136% damage from crits because they stack additively (200*(1-0.32)) and you can see that tanks can actually itemize pretty well against him regardless or true damage, as those numbers are applied before true damage conversion. He really needs the amplification to pack a punch to be honest, the lower the crit multiplier is the bugger the 50% amplification is, for 200 it is a 25% increase, for 136 it is a 37% increase. Yasuo FEELS this a lot. Trynd actually got nerfed because when splitpushing he can 1v1 anyone not named Jax, particularly tanks regardless of their armor (its just a matter of how long it will take him to kill the tank and the difference will not be enough to say add another rotation from another lane), and when he teamfights he dives the back line (if he wants to hit the frontline he will get melted and kited forever), in which case his burst has been significantly reduced against the squishies he tries to kill. So his splitpush is more or less the same and his teamfight potential, which was already dependant on him one or two shotting a squishy, is reduced thanks to the lower burst. Yi, now that is something I don't have a clue. He already has true damage, maybe he now wants to go ad but I don't know if getting to 100% crit will be wasting a lot of attack speed over the cap because of his ultimate, because now he will need 2 zeal items for that 100% crit. Could go either way to be honest. Maybe I'm making a mistake here somewhere, if so tell me, but I think that the kneejerk reaction to trynd and yasuo is quite oerblown to be honest... Sure numbers might seem dangerous initially but with a bit of context they become much less worrying.

KyunseiMay 3, 20184 votes

Assuming 40% true damage.

OLD IE : vs 100 armor 100 AD 250 pre-mitigation 125 dmg 150 with conqueror

NEW IE : vs 100 armor 100 AD 200 pre-mitigation 120 dmg 140 with conqueror

cost 500 more golds.

remakoroMay 3, 20183 votes

100 armor thats like 0 armor items or 1 item 1029 for many champions. So you are talking about people that didnt even try to itemize vs him.

YaosuoMay 3, 20181 votes

Even ADC's get up to 100 armor if they build tabi's which is DISGUSTING when you think about how much penetration he'll have against tanks.

TwinkieProMay 3, 20183 votes

It's not as powerful as you think. It does more damage to those with 250 armor or more, but less damage compared to IE now. Trynd also loses out a bit by rushing IE. No starting crit, so building up his passive is harder. No attack speed. Less damage overall.

darkdillMay 3, 20184 votes

But you can't build resists against him anymore. THAT is what I have a beef with.

i kick routersMay 3, 20182 votes

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YaosuoMay 3, 20182 votes

He'll actually insta win, 40% of the crit damage is going straight through armor, I tested whether it was 40% or 36% on PBE (it's 40%) so don't gimme shit about that. This means on a tank, instead of having Tryndamere's damage reduced by 80% (from armor) it's only reducing his damage by 44%. That is a HUGE nerf to tanks and armor. He will actually insta win any matchup against a tanke mid to late game.

i kick routersMay 3, 20182 votes

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Jon 678910May 3, 20183 votes

Armor tanks, like Rammus and Malphite, especially the former, should be able to fight AD champions 1 v 1 if they are building full armor. It's the tradeoff they make for taking high magic damage.

You make it sound like a tryndamere should simply win a 1 v 1 because he can brute force through a tanks armor. Teams should be punished for taking a full AD comp, and they currently don't because games don't last long enough for resistances to become relevant in teamfights. Tanks are currently just portable CC, and Riot seems to have given up on their identity, pushing more damage into their kits instead of making them tank damage.

i kick routersMay 4, 20181 votes

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Jon 678910May 4, 20181 votes

invalidate tryndameres split push

But what do you mean by this? Even pre conqueror and before the addition of new runes tryndamere has been able to 1 v 1 any tanks not named malphite or rammus, though it was later in the game (which generally isn't reached anymore). Like most 1 v 1s, lifesteal is the determinant.

On top of that, the value from keeping a tank away from a teamfight is generally more value than champions like tryndamere generate being in a teamfight.

The only time a tank should be able to stonewall tryndamere is if he's investing all his resources towards armor. Even then, most tanks don't have a chance of winning an extended trade, and they shouldn't. That being said, resist tanks need to be able to deal with their opposition well, since they're generally worse than well rounded tanks against mixed comps.

LankPantsMay 3, 20183 votes

No starting crit, so building up his passive is harder.

I haven't done the maths on this so it may not be a perfect assessment of what's happening, but wouldn't this be greatly offset by the fact that you're building double the crit with every AA? Also if at any point you do score a lucky crit that's liable to snowball your crit by giving a huge sum of bonus crit chance due to IE's doubling effect.

Trynd also loses out a bit by rushing IE.

Is anyone suggesting that? I think at bare minimum you'd still want a Zeal before IE. Maybe you can get away with Brawler's Gloves, but I doubt that.

TwinkieProMay 3, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I haven't done the maths on this so it may not be a perfect assessment of what's happening, but wouldn't this be greatly offset by the fact that you're building double the crit with every AA? Also if at any point you do score a lucky crit that's liable to snowball your crit by giving a huge sum of bonus crit chance due to IE's doubling effect.

Is anyone suggesting that? I think at bare minimum you'd still want a Zeal before IE. Maybe you can get away with Brawler's Gloves, but I doubt that.

It takes roughly 15-16 autos to reach max, with or without IE.

If he builds a zeal item first, he get 30% off the bat. Almost 1/3rd the chance to crit. RNG plays a heavy role during those first few, meaning he could crit twice in a row, but he could also not. Either way, his % will end up around 38. His gain becomes exponential. It still takes about 15 autos to gain max fury. What differs here is that he gets crit AND attack speed. He can gain max in 9 seconds with item 3046 and just over 10 seconds with item 3087 , a more likely buy. dps to max is 222/251 and 270/280 respectively. Lets not forget it adds up to 65% crit chance compared to IE's 70%. New IE is only damage. dps is 230 to max, 338 at max.

I was actually surprised to see this. His overall DPS is increased compared to a zeal item, not to mention it will do waaaay more to tanks with conqueror.

I'd also like to add in that IE still may not be the best rush Item. -It's far more expensive than a zeal item +900. -Gives no starting crit And builds from 2 BF swords until completed. -Unfavorable trades can put in behind. Up until he builds IE, he will be relying on his passive for crits which will halt His Q heal. Since it takes longer to charge up, getting caught out means his Q will be worth less compared to a zeal item. -Trynd likes to rush waveclear. Statikk is faster at this than IE. -He also likes to duel. PD offers easier to access stats, allowing more favorable trades. DPS may suffer, but it's cheaper and 12% reduction is great on him.

The positives of rush IE are getting a item 3153 for attack speed and sustain, then build tanky or bruiser. This would probably make him broken. He would have to be abused hard in lane to prevent this.

Edit: after doing some more number stuff, I've determined that Conqueror and IE stack additively, meaning you gain 40% true damage when you crit.

BobaFlautistMay 3, 20183 votes

That's probably not how it will work.

IE = 20% true damage

[20% True Damage + 80% Physical] 20% converted to True Damage by conqueror

The 20% of the 20% that's already true damage will be unaffected, the 20% of the 80% that's still physical is only 16%.

Conqueror + I.E. will likely give 36% true damage on a crit, not 40%.

...what do you mean that's not the point and the actual difference is too small to matter?

YaosuoMay 3, 20182 votes

Just tested this on the PBE, they stack additively and not multiplicatively. So he is dealing 40% true damage instead of 36%. Don't know why Riot's math is different sometimes ¯_(ツ)_/¯.

BobaFlautistMay 3, 20181 votes

Yeah wow that's really strange.

I didn't put the "probably" in at first, but then realized that you can never be sure with Riot's math interactions (See: guisno's recursive scaling)

rtbf221651412May 3, 20183 votes

I don't know why people are defending true damage. What counters a pure true damage/crit without building attack speed?

HP? What?

Pumping IronMay 3, 20182 votes

Why is everyone hating on tryndamere? Hes at 48 wr lol

Yordle XayahMay 3, 20182 votes

20% over 20% is not the same as 40% though

YaosuoMay 3, 20184 votes

Just tested this on the PBE, they stack additively and not multiplicatively. So he is dealing 40% true damage instead of 36%.

Yordle XayahMay 4, 20181 votes

Oh, that may be of concern then actually :(

KadexeMay 3, 20182 votes

These things work multiplicatively, not additively. So you're actually looking at 36% true damage. Also, his crits will only deal 200% of his AD, so it might actually be worse than the old Infinity Edge in many situations.

YaosuoMay 3, 20183 votes

This thing actually works additively, not multiplicatively, you're still looking at 40% my dude, when someone has 125 armor the new IE becomes more beneficial even toward squishies. It's essentially giving you lethality/armor pen instead of more crit