About this support meta right now

chipndip1·Jan 21, 2017·6 votes·874 views

Instead of getting salty over it, maybe you guys should realize that "support" doesn't have to mean "passive pom-pom wearing cheerleader"? Maybe instead of getting mad that Zyra and friends are in bot lane now, seeing how Riot is on record saying they wanted more high damage support options in the game, maybe the community should realize that support =/= impotent shield bitch? Then maybe we can make strides to developing the role as a whole so it's as fleshed out and diverse as the other ones?

Remember: Riot is on record saying they wanted less defensive game play, ap carries in bot lane, and high damage/pressure supports like Brand/Zyra picked more often. These things aren't entirely "accidents".

30 Comments

LXIIJan 21, 20175 votes

Thing is, that's not support anymore. That's just a mage in the bot lane that wards sometimes.

chipndip1Jan 21, 20171 votes

No, it IS support. You can have support-style characters in a game without them being entirely forced down buffing and passive game play.

In one of my favorite 3DS games, Etrian Odyssey Untold (and Untold 2), classes range from a variety of types from Archers to Gunners (yes they had both for some reason) to Bards to BDSM Whip People (Dark Hunters). Some classes were CLEARLY support classes, like the Bards, but others, like the Archers, had a variety of possible support-style moves in their kits that allowed one to redirect damage, apply status ailments, and increase dodge chances through accuracy manipulation. Some support classes, on the other hand, had moderately potent damage options. The games allow you to make a mish-mash of the available classes in the game based on your judgement to clear its 25 dungeon floors, even with overlapping classes (like multiple BDSM Whip People), and what you chose to emphasize in each character's kit as you gained levels to accomplish this was entirely up to you.

Honestly, that big-picture logic looks a good bit like League. You have these champs that obviously give off these vibes that they were intended to go one way, but there's just enough wiggle room to switch up and take it in another way. Instead of running away from it or trying to alienate it, we should be building off the notion that, honestly, support shouldn't have to be forced into one direction.

In other words, broaden your horizons and your definition of "support".

LXIIJan 21, 20172 votes

No, it isn't, that remains to be a mage in the bot lane.

If you can't heal, shield, buff, debuff, peel, etc you're not really "supporting" you're just helping someone kill. That's definitely beneficial, but it's not the same thing.

chipndip1Jan 21, 20171 votes

Then Leona and Blitz aren't supports by your logic. They're just vanguards taken bot lane. They have no major emphasis on defense in their base kits. Leona's built to make herself tanky and dive back lines. Blitz just pulls people way out of position. They aren't supports by your definition, but because they don't hurt that much, you didn't think that far.

LXIIJan 21, 20172 votes

Yeah because Leona's combined 3 seconds off CC is definitely not peel (let's not forget her passive which would count as a buff). Neither is Blitz's ability to knock-up, silence, AND completely displace an enemy.

YOU didn't think at all when you made that reply. Quit being petty and accept that you're wrong on this one.

chipndip1Jan 21, 20171 votes

And by that logic, Zyra has two forms of hard cc to peel with. Malz has a silence and a suppression. What IS your logic? Because Leona does less damage, "it's fine" that she's a support. Since Zyra hurts, it isn't. You're a hypocrite.

ZephyrDrakeJan 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

And by that logic, Zyra has two forms of hard cc to peel with. Malz has a silence and a suppression. What IS your logic? Because Leona does less damage, "it's fine" that she's a support. Since Zyra hurts, it isn't. You're a hypocrite.

the only hypocrite here is you that think that a champion should be able to deal that much damage with no items and then say that every single other support needs to change to do what they do. Zyra is not a healthy support, neither is brand nor malzahar. When Malzahar can literally at lvl 1 KILL YOU by doing nothing more than summoning a voidling on you and doing nothing more there is a balance issue going on.

chipndip1Jan 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

the only hypocrite here is you that think that a champion should be able to deal that much damage with no items and then say that every single other support needs to change to do what they do.

I didn't say that. At all.

ZephyrDrakeJan 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I didn't say that. At all.

yes you did

chipndip1Jan 23, 20171 votes

Where did I say that then? Quote me.

LXIIJan 22, 20171 votes

Zyra's knockup isn't instant, it will not save you. Her root is also just that, a root. It will also not save you from an ADC autoing you to death. Malz can only save you with his single target ult, not really reliable peel. Nevermind the fact that all this "peel" is on abilities with extremely long CDs and aren't even available til 6.

I bet you think LeBlanc is a support too because she has a root.

chipndip1Jan 23, 20171 votes

Zyra's ult zone's through two factors: High damage threat, THEN a knock-up. And are you really saying something along the lines of "A root isn't 'support' enough because I still have auto-attacks"? Zyra's pitched as a support by Riot themselves, anyway. Get comfy.

As for Malz, he still has a silence for anyone that isn't an AA-heavy champion.

Besides, all this damn talk about specific kits is derailing the point of the thread.

ZephyrDrakeJan 21, 20175 votes

i disagree entirely. Supports can have damage but that's not what they are meant to primarily bring. They are supposed to be high utility champions with low to decent damage not champions that can do so much damage even without building any items that they just force out everyone that can't keep up with them. Brand and Zyra needs to have their damage tone down or be tied more heavily towards items. I feel extremely offended by this. There are champions who are supposed to be more defensive that others. There are champions who are meant to go ham every single time and there are champions who share a nice in between.

chipndip1Jan 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

i disagree entirely. Supports can have damage but that's not what they are meant to primarily bring. They are supposed to be high utility champions with low to decent damage not champions that can do so much damage even without building any items that they just force out everyone that can't keep up with them. Brand and Zyra needs to have their damage tone down or be tied more heavily towards items. I feel extremely offended by this. There are champions who are supposed to be more defensive that others. There are champions who are meant to go ham every single time and there are champions who share a nice in between.

You basically prove my point. You can't imagine a rift where a support actually poses a threat beyond cc.

ZephyrDrakeJan 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You basically prove my point. You can't imagine a rift where a support actually poses a threat beyond cc.

well sorry supports aren't allowed to be mages 2.0. Why bother even having the definition of "support" at that point if all you want for them to do is to deal damage. Damage is not what a support is supposed to bring, if the sole reason you pick a support is because they deal a lot of damage and nothing else you just brought a mage not a support. Supports can deal damage, but like i said it shouldn't be their main thing or they actually need to invest in items to get damage. A Sona or a Bard building full AP will deal a lot of damage but that's because they are investing on damage items. Champions like Brand and Zyra and Malzahar can deal ludicrous amounts of damage while having no items whatsoever and that damage just gets higher when they build items. That is not reasonable in the slightest and like a said there has to be a wide variety of champion playstyles. Some are more defensive oriented, some are more offensive oriented while some are in between but you? the only thing you care for is "supports should be dealing stupid amounts of damage and those that don't need to change so that they are more offensive oriented for no reason other than because that's what i believe is the right way to go"

AptestJan 21, 20171 votes

Let's rephrase that a little bit ok? because your original post is a little confusing as to what I think you are actually trying to say:

"it's not OK for SOME MAGES to have damage that goes above that of the 5-6 item ADC, while they have one and a half non big ticket AP items and redemption."

This fucking breaks the game because lol items and gold who needs them when you have brand passive?

chipndip1Jan 21, 20171 votes

Here's the thing: You think of it as an all-or-one package. It isn't. These champs still offer things like hard cc, engage, and disengage tools, but the framing is merely different. Now, is their damage really high with barely any items? Yes, but that's because Riot wants them in bot lane, but there's nothing for them to build. Rather than trying to shoo them out of bot lane, we should be trying to adjust support so they can fit in bot lane without being so "extra" in the early game.

And what are you talking about "variety" for? The entire role has been nothing but defensive items AND play styles up until recently. Hell, with the recent changes, it's become MORE defensive, save these few mage champions, and you're on ME when it comes to "diversity"? Check yourself.

ZephyrDrakeJan 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Here's the thing: You think of it as an all-or-one package. It isn't. These champs still offer things like hard cc, engage, and disengage tools, but the framing is merely different. Now, is their damage really high with barely any items? Yes, but that's because Riot wants them in bot lane, but there's nothing for them to build. Rather than trying to shoo them out of bot lane, we should be trying to adjust support so they can fit in bot lane without being so "extra" in the early game.

And what are you talking about "variety" for? The entire role has been nothing but defensive items AND play styles up until recently. Hell, with the recent changes, it's become MORE defensive, save these few mage champions, and you're on ME when it comes to "diversity"? Check yourself.

you are so wrong in so many ways it's not even funny. Leona is a defensive style support? Blitz is a defensive style support? Thresh is a defensive style support? Alistar is a defensive support? that Brand, Zyra and Malzahar have nothing to build? please are you even trying at this point? Sona a defensive support? i am done with you! you have no idea what you are talking about.

chipndip1Jan 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

you are so wrong in so many ways it's not even funny. Leona is a defensive style support? Blitz is a defensive style support? Thresh is a defensive style support? Alistar is a defensive support? that Brand, Zyra and Malzahar have nothing to build? please are you even trying at this point? Sona a defensive support? i am done with you! you have no idea what you are talking about.

Obviously "nothing but" is hyperbole, even if it's not by a grand margin. Leona's kit is offensive. Her builds aren't. Not that she needs damage stats, but that there's hardly any support items of merit with offensive functions. If there is, name one. Blitz is in the same camp.
Thresh is a warden, a defensive tank class. Same with Alistar.
Name one support item Brand and Zyra build.
Sona is an enchanter, a defensive mage class. Her most common support builds are now centered around the Locket/Redemption core, which is a defensive build.

You can be done all you want, honestly. Go on, shoo.

ZephyrDrakeJan 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Obviously "nothing but" is hyperbole, even if it's not by a grand margin. Leona's kit is offensive. Her builds aren't. Not that she needs damage stats, but that there's hardly any support items of merit with offensive functions. If there is, name one. Blitz is in the same camp.

Thresh is a warden, a defensive tank class. Same with Alistar.

Name one support item Brand and Zyra build.

Sona is an enchanter, a defensive mage class. Her most common support builds are now centered around the Locket/Redemption core, which is a defensive build.

You can be done all you want, honestly. Go on, shoo.

it's hard to know when you are wrong right? sorry but YOU ARE WRONG!

Sona is not a defensive mage, you can play her defensively that does not mean she is a defensive support. Leona can build as a bruiser if she wants, nothing is stopping her. Damage is not the only thing that qualifies whether or not something is offensive oriented or not. How is Leona playing? what is her playstyle? what is Alistar's role in the game? what is every single support's role in the game?

Let me tell you something that will blow your mind. The only 3 supports that are purely defensive with little to no offensive capabilities are, Janna, Soraka and Braum. Every single other support in the game either has an offensive oriented style or a mix of the two. In which they can be aggressive, or reactive depending on the situation. But i doubt your close minded being will be able to comprehend that. TRY AGAIN!

chipndip1Jan 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

it's hard to know when you are wrong right? sorry but YOU ARE WRONG!

Sona is not a defensive mage, you can play her defensively that does not mean she is a defensive support.

It's actually incredible. So, lemme get this straight:

A support that has only one damage spell, no means to aggressively position herself, a heal/shield, a damage debuff, and a light speed buff is an "offensive support"? A support that is literally defined as a defensive mage is somehow not a defensive support? Maybe in low elo you get the freedom to pretend you're Brand, but let's not kid ourselves. Sona's kit is based around reactive game play. For the most part, when enemies/allies enter your ranges, THEN you do something. That's defensive play.

Leona can build as a bruiser if she wants, nothing is stopping her. Damage is not the only thing that qualifies whether or not something is offensive oriented or not. How is Leona playing? what is her playstyle?

You didn't exactly read what the hell I posted, did you?

what is Alistar's role in the game? what is every single support's role in the game?

The point of this whole thread is that it should vary. Look at the support items. None of them even hint at the notion that maybe, juuuuusssst maybe, someone might want to do something proactive for a change. Itemization is reactive, which pushes the champions to mirror what they're building...save the mage ones that don't build them at all. Hell, even Lulu maxes Q last now. She maxes her shield first. Why? Because the game environment enforces that play style HEAVILY.

Let me tell you something that will blow you mind. The only 3 supports that are purely defensive with little to no offensive capabilities are, Janna, Soraka and Braum. Every single other support in the game either has an offensive oriented style or a mix of the two. In which they can be aggressive, or reactive depending on the situation. But i doubt your close minded being will be able to comprehend that. TRY AGAIN!

Doesn't matter when the game environment pushes them all into being significantly more defensive in practice.

ZephyrDrakeJan 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It's actually incredible. So, lemme get this straight:

A support that has only one damage spell, no means to aggressively position herself, a heal/shield, a damage debuff, and a light speed buff is an "offensive support"? A support that is literally defined as a defensive mage is somehow not a defensive support? Maybe in low elo you get the freedom to pretend you're Brand, but let's not kid ourselves. Sona's kit is based around reactive game play. For the most part, when enemies/allies enter your ranges, THEN you do something. That's defensive play.

You didn't exactly read what the hell I posted, did you?

The point of this whole thread is that it should vary. Look at the support items. None of them even hint at the notion that maybe, juuuuusssst maybe, someone might want to do something proactive for a change. Itemization is reactive, which pushes the champions to mirror what they're building...save the mage ones that don't build them at all. Hell, even Lulu maxes Q last now. She maxes her shield first. Why? Because the game environment enforces that play style HEAVILY.

Doesn't matter when the game environment pushes them all into being significantly more defensive in practice.

no, no and more no!

BastionKrossJan 21, 20173 votes

It could be an issue with branding.

No, not the champion , the marketing.

When you call a role "Support" it brings to mind images of "passive pom-pom wearing cheerleader" and "impotent shield bitch"; defensive and reactive connotations instead of offensive and proactive. You don't think of the Robin to the Batman, you think of the Alfred to the Batman.

Alfred is cool, don't get me wrong, but you may not want him as your tag-team partner in a brawl.

But what if the role was called something like "Enabler" or "Facilitator" or "Coordinator"? Those things have a more hands-on connotation. A more authoritarian leaning. If you speak to someone called the "support" he's clearly the second banana to something greater. If you speak to someone called the "coordinator" then clearly this is someone who makes big-time decisions.

I would much rather be referred to as a Facilitator than The Support Staff. The former makes me sound like a spy or a sabatour, the latter makes me sound like a nurse or accountant.

I'm not claiming this is a cure-all to the support woes, but perhaps a renaming of the role could bring about a more positive association.

chipndip1Jan 21, 20171 votes

If the rebranding came along with champion/itemization changes to reflect that change in mentality, I'd be all for it.

Also, your Alfred analogy is spot on. I'm fine being the sidekick. I love Yoshi and Tails. I'm not fine with being Amy or Peach.

Doctor JarvisJan 21, 20171 votes

The problem isn't that "my Soraka is less good than a Brand", the problem is "there's no point playing Soraka when Brand exists". Of course Zyra and Brand and Malzahar should be allowed to play bot lane, the problem is that the raw damage and pressure they bring is too much better than the utility other supports are supposed to be bringing.

chipndip1Jan 21, 20172 votes

Then use that as a base line and work from there.

Maybe Soraka's kit is just way too defensive? Maybe she needs more power in different fields than just spamming W on people?

In other words, maybe we've just been putting up with "Meh, good enough" until something like this came along to make us say "Guess good enough isn't good enough anymore"? Bot lane match-ups and statistics are special in the sense that nearly every game has a marksman and a support-style champ in it, so the meta there may be shaken, but there's rarely new contenders. We now have new contenders, and people are starting to see the holes and flaws in how support champs are in this game, but they can't really put their thumbs on what it is.

There's just too much emphasis on defense in the support role. These guys bust down those walls, so now there's nothing to hide behind.

Mira Arya EntheJan 21, 20171 votes

I find this a bit offensive. I really enjoy Soraka and Leona

chipndip1Jan 21, 20171 votes

Not the point?

Big LincolnJan 21, 20171 votes

i wouldn't mind zyra and brand if they weren't cancer and did bullshit damage with no items or investment

VoraciousXJan 21, 20171 votes

I don't care if Zyra or Brand go support. That means I don't have to deal with item 3107 item 3190 and all those friggin shields as an assassin or bruiser.