Kog'maw desperately needs a buff

ManBearPig916·Dec 15, 2015·5 votes·1,069 views

I know he's the on-hit master, but, let's be honest.

He's an incredibly immobile adc minus the requisite damage output that would making being immobile be acceptable. If he will continue to be a sitting duck, simply up his damage.

That's all I want. I played him a lot lately to try to become great with his on-hit builds, but it's truly too difficult I lose a LOT with Kog'maw. He just needs more damage if he is going to be incredibly vulnerable. Reduce the AD reduction on his W, and you're golden.

8 Comments

TekkenPlayerDec 15, 20153 votes

The problem is that Kogmaw is just a champion designed for coordinated teams and not at all good for yoloqueue. His slow needs a buff

ofartDec 15, 20152 votes

I've got thousands of games on Kog throughout all my accounts and I don't think he's in a good spot at all for either role. The following refers mostly to mid Kog:

"AP kog was my favorite champ. pre-rework and just doesn't really work anymore. His late game fantasy is still there somewhat but he is nowhere near as strong as before in my experience.

The mana costs are up on both W and R, the base damages are lower and he scales worse on top of it. His ultimate used to offer massive artillery support in teamfights and now it's basically a clean-up tool. His laning is substantially weaker too (you can't just cs with W due to mana costs) and I just don't see almost any upside to him.

The way W works now isn't fun or interesting at all. You basically gimp yourself so you're unable to kite and do less damage only to spam more autos. How is that better? I'd rather have a meaningful attack and more control. He doesn't even do more damage. If you count level 18 base damages for W, a 5 AS Kog will do less than the old Kog which had a free W. 6% on hit magic damage down to 2% is huge and it has worse AP scaling on top of it. I tried a Nashor's Tooth Gunblade build and felt almost useless most of the game. You just don't have the scaling/safety to come on-line in a reasonable time frame.

I'd at least tolerate the W change if his ult. was left alone. However, his ult. is also clearly worse overall despite having nice scaling when they're low HP. You can run the math but it's basically always worse unless you have some massive initiators like Malphite and Annie to soften them up heavily before (at which point you'd likely win regardless).

I feel like they deleted my favorite champion. He already had many interesting build paths, styles and flexibility of roles. He wasn't popular but he had his niche and rewarded mastery. The way he is now feels pretty terrible almost every time I tried him. I don't mean that I can't win but rather that my influence is drastically reduced and I feel like I'm harming my team by picking him. Before this rework, I could at least rely on my late game to turn around game with my poke.

My proposal: His ult. damage changes and increased mana costs make a poke mage style mediocre at best. His kit suggests a hybrid build path with Nashor's but that is still bad. What he needs is a much stronger W so that this style can work well. I'd suggest 3% base with 2% AP scaling."

RebonackDec 15, 20151 votes

{quoted} My proposal: His ult. damage changes and increased mana costs make a poke mage style mediocre at best. His kit suggests a hybrid build path with Nashor's but that is still bad. What he needs is a much stronger W so that this style can work well. I'd suggest 3% base with 2% AP scaling."

If Riot smoothed out the bonus damage on Koggy's Ult (something like 2.5% bonus damage per 1% missing HP) it would make it far less gimped since you're still hitting harder at values above 50% HP. It would lower the threshold for x2 bonus damage down to 20% HP, but I think earlier access to bonus damage would more than make up for it. Combine that with less punishing mana costs and I suspect Kog's Ult would feel a lot better.

ofartDec 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If Riot smoothed out the bonus damage on Koggy's Ult (something like 2.5% bonus damage per 1% missing HP) it would make it far less gimped since you're still hitting harder at values above 50% HP. It would lower the threshold for x2 bonus damage down to 20% HP, but I think earlier access to bonus damage would more than make up for it. Combine that with less punishing mana costs and I suspect Kog's Ult would feel a lot better.

Yes, that would still weaken his poke style but it would provide a more predictable damage output instead of these arbitrary steps.

I still think W needs a buff if they want it to be the focus though. All the other changes they made to it make it far less attractive than you'd expect considering they also weakened his ult. for normal situations and poke. Consider that they nerfed W's duration, nerfed his AD substantially when active, added a 40 mana cost, nerfed the scaling and also reduced the base on-hit by 2/3. They even nerfed Kog's AS growth. With that, doubling Kog's AS while active seems basically neutral at best.

Sadly, if the W changes are neutral rather than a buff, Kog is just a lot worse because the ult. changes are definitely a large net nerf. The cost was increased, the reset timer was nearly doubled, the base damages are hit hard and it is no longer strong as a poking tool since it won't begin to get close to the old ult's damage until they're already at 1/2 (which generally means an engage occurred already and that is the opposite of a poke strategy).

I really wish people would make more noise because neither style is really that good right now and mid was arguably his most fun role. Sadly, not a lot of people are fighting for Kog like they did for Cassiopeia. He just doesn't have as large of a user base and with his current state, he dropped from niche to nearly non-existent (.23% play rate).

BoulderoxDec 15, 20151 votes

kogmaw should and always should be a glass cannon, one that has 0 mobility, and needs a team to work around him to succeed to the fullest. HE was getting stupidly strong for having very little drawbacks, which mobility was it for kog, but when he can outdamage people before they reached him, that wasn't fair. give the flat damage a week and then try up again, he feels different due to his rework and on this week, search every nook and cranny of his kits output, damage and modifiers to see that on hit is the way to maximize him atm, and that is ok. But he doesn't need buffs, he is supposed to be a late game hyper carry, and because he can't hit that spike within the 20-30 min games, that is why he feels lack luster. His w being flat fixed part of his problem which still exists sadly with preseason 6 which we all know is item 3124 ..... he has ap scalings for free and he gets AS and ad on top of it, not fair for other adc's that need whole items to match what he gets for free from one item

RebonackDec 15, 20152 votes

{quoted} but when he can outdamage people before they reached him, that wasn't fair.

Ever seen what an Amumu Ult into a MF Ult does to people?

Kog might be able to outdamage one guy before they reach him, but MF can do it to the whole enemy team.

Riot trying to balance Koggy around being the 'Protect the ADC' champ of choice is an effort in futility so long as Miss Fortune exists, because in Solo it is MUCH easier to coordinate two Ults than it is to constantly peel for Kog. Not to mention the fact that MF is stronger than Kog at every stage of the game right now.

Instead of this glass cannon silliness, Riot should be treating Kog for what he is, a ranged Juggernaut in much the same way that Graves is a ranged Fighter. Because as Kog is right now, he's never going to be viable in Solo without absolutely breaking him in competitive play. What he needs is a new Innate that helps cement him as the Darius of ADCs rather than a ranged Yi.

BoulderoxDec 15, 20151 votes

2 ults.... of course they will be strong... and this is about kogmaw i thought... MF is just as vulnerable to what kogmaw has, she has nothing but a MS sterioid, which isn't much when every stray minion cancels it, and she needs to position really well or have a really amazing lockdown to make it so she isn't gang raped with cc the second she presses R.

Not to mention the fact that MF is stronger than Kog at every stage of the game right now.

False

lvl 1 mf 46 AD

lvl1 Kog 57.46 AD

MF has to juggle her passive to keep sustained high damage output, which is hard unless you dedicate yourself to learning the ins and outs of it and cs effectively and seamlessly. Kogmaw is simply countered by her due to the fact that she can use her q to poke while csing safely. has a slow that cripples kog even more, and a MS steroid that allows her to catch up even a little is enough sometimes.

kogmaw as it sits is around 47-48% win rate (got my data from /na.op.gg) which is decent seeing as he is supposed to be a hyper carry, where this is the fast meta.... Please resist using the term juggernaut when talking about a marksman carry.... that word has so many flaws since that dreadful patch when out, because all i imagine is having kogmaw get free defenses and has an aoe missing hp spell on a low cd.....

Kogmaw is meant to be lack luster, and a risky pick, but only through teamwork and really safe fights can kogmaw shine. Besides kogmaw was never competative unless they were running the juggermog comp which only buffed and saved kog from anything, and that is the cases where he is used best. He is fine the way he is right now, they just changed the w to flat % damage, so give it a week and come back please :).

RebonackDec 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

2 ults.... of course they will be strong... and this is about kogmaw i thought... MF is just as vulnerable to what kogmaw has, she has nothing but a MS sterioid, which isn't much when every stray minion cancels it, and she needs to position really well or have a really amazing lockdown to make it so she isn't gang raped with cc the second she presses R.

False

lvl 1 mf 46 AD

lvl1 Kog 57.46 AD

I'm not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse here or not.

The topic was 'Kog just needs a team built around him to do good!' and if you're building him as a glass cannon then that's true. By contrast, if you build a team around Miss Fortune, you need far fewer organized players to pull it off. All it takes is one lockdown Ult for MF to really shine. In other words, optimal team interaction is much easier to pull off with MF while also being much more rewarding.

MF has to juggle her passive to keep sustained high damage output, which is hard unless you dedicate yourself to learning the ins and outs of it and cs effectively and seamlessly. Kogmaw is simply countered by her due to the fact that she can use her q to poke while csing safely. has a slow that cripples kog even more, and a MS steroid that allows her to catch up even a little is enough sometimes.

I'm not talking about the lane matchup here (which Kog tends to lose, but then again he has no advantageous matchups at the moment, just some that he loses less pitifully), I'm talking about their overall contribution to their team. And in that aspect (lane, roam, teamfight) MF's contributions blow Kog out of the water.

Why would you want to play Protect the Kog when you can play AoECClusterfuck with Miss Fortune?

kogmaw as it sits is around 47-48% win rate (got my data from /na.op.gg) which is decent seeing as he is supposed to be a hyper carry, where this is the fast meta....

Yes. He's only the objectively worst Marksmen in the game at the moment. Do note that Vayne and Twitch are both hyper-scaling carries as well, and they're both doing just fine.

Please resist using the term juggernaut when talking about a marksman carry.... that word has so many flaws since that dreadful patch when out, because all i imagine is having kogmaw get free defenses and has an aoe missing hp spell on a low cd.....

It's perfectly fine. A champion with no instant mobility skills, moderate to low CC, good defense, and heavy damage. Kog's defense happens to be blowing things up from way the hell over there, which is a pretty solid form of defense.

Kogmaw is meant to be lack luster, and a risky pick, but only through teamwork and really safe fights can kogmaw shine.

Riot balances around Plat/Diamond level Solo, not teams or LCS unless something is a major outlier in power.

Besides kogmaw was never competative unless they were running the juggermog comp which only buffed and saved kog from anything, and that is the cases where he is used best.

And here I am saying that's a terrible plan. Why the hell would we want a champion that's only useful in situations that over 99% of the game's community will never have access to? That's just awful game design.

He is fine the way he is right now, they just changed the w to flat % damage, so give it a week and come back please :).

Yeah, and I've played dozens of Kog games since then and adjusted my build accordingly already. W damage breaks even at 160 AD, so AD builds are largely a trap option at the moment. Have you started building Kog as an AP Marksmen yet to optimize your damage output, or are you still building Hurricane and Bork? Koggy is fine over in Dominion-Land where I spend my time, but he's still objectively worse than all other choices on Summoner's Rift where most people play.

And once again, Riot has no reason to be making balance choices that don't impact most of the game's players.