Why do tanks not work anymore? Overkill damage.

ManBearPig916·Nov 28, 2018·90 votes·19,985 views

Losing 53-20 while having 3 tanks, and going up against a team that built all damage on all 5 champs is disheartening.

You cannot build against damage types and succeed. There is so much damage in the game that reducing damage intake isn't effective enough. You have SO much damage in the game, that with all this overkill damage in someone's kit (and grouped up peoples' kits), resists still leave you with, well .... less overkill damage. You gotta lower the damage in the game so that tanks, lifesteal builds, on-hit builds ... they could all come back. The overkill in the engagements is too much, and so many strategies are dead now to the zergs people do.

137 Comments

The Bad TouchNov 28, 201855 votes

I had a replay from last year where I was playing a tanky bruiser Warwick jungle into a Yi/Yas/Tryn + whatever bot was. Think it might have been Thresh + MF. Think my build was item 3047 item 1401 item 3748 item 3053 item 3742 item 3143 + item 2138

At full build level 18 with iron pot I died in .8 second through e in a team fight. Sure it's not full tank.... but gd it's a bulky build and ww E gives a ton of damage reduction. I mean I built to deal with crit. I built to deal with auto attacks. I built to deal with burst. I built to deal with a physical damage heavy comp. Not one bit of that actually matters sadly.

Say what you will but old league pretty much died after season 5. Everything after that has been full retard CoD mode.

XL BENCH PRESSNov 28, 201813 votes

Don't forget Yi Yas Tryn were probably all running Conqueror so your armor's meaningless.

NyarlathοtepNov 28, 201824 votes

You got burst in less than a second with tank items, steraks and ww's e?

Yeah i smell a bit of bullshit here. Unless your hp was literally 1, you cant die in less than a second with so much dmg reduction and hp.

UltrysNov 28, 20188 votes

This is legit. I was rammus jungle vs a fed yi and the enemy team was all AD.

I had all armor. Thornmail, ninja tabi, righteous glory and working on deadmans at the time around lvl 15 ish. Running full tank runes.

I engaged yi thinking I had more than enough time for my team to arrive especially with rammus w and aftershock etc.

Yi killed me in under a second. I looked and it was almost all true damage. Was like 2700 true damage in .8 ssconds.

This was very recent.

IfnethNov 28, 20182 votes

That’s impossible. However fed Yi was, the hard cap on attack speed means that he could have attacked only twice. Even with a full build and stacked Rageblade and passive, two basic attacks from Master Yi could not deal so much damage.

If you were full health, then 4% Max Health from Bloodrazor and 8% Current Health from Blade of The Ruined King would together deal 12% Max Health on-hit. With Phantom Hit, that’s another 12%. With Yi’s passive, that’s two more hits for 24%, the second dealing another Phantom hit for 24%.

Ignoring resistances and that the %Current Health damage would decrease, that’s 72% Max Health with perfect alignment. He would have needed enough AD to deal another 28% Max Health damage in two basic attacks. He just lacks the stats.

LSmaster16Nov 28, 20182 votes

I'm not sure exactly how the timing on this would work out but I believe 2.5 attack speed would give three attacks in .8 seconds since the timer starts with the first auto attack and then there would be .4 seconds in between auto attacks. I'm still rather surprised that Yi could do that but that does support the .8 second kill time.

IfnethNov 28, 20181 votes

There’s still the wind-up animation for the first attack, though, and the fact that you had resistances. Sub-second kills are really hard without insane stats and ratios; e.g., late-game Veigar.

If by any chance you got 0.8 seconds from Death Recap, then, well, that might just be Death Recap.

What’s surprising is just how much damage he does do. A few more seconds definitely would have killed you.

LSmaster16Nov 28, 20182 votes

I agree with what your saying, just want to add that on the off chance that death recap is working as intended then the timer would start upon taking damage from the first auto attack rather than Yi declaring the first auto attack.

LegitBusinessmanNov 29, 20182 votes

{quoted}

There’s still the wind-up animation for the first attack, though, and the fact that you had resistances. Sub-second kills are really hard without insane stats and ratios; e.g., late-game Veigar.

If by any chance you got 0.8 seconds from Death Recap, then, well, that might just be Death Recap.

What’s surprising is just how much damage he does do. A few more seconds definitely would have killed you.

You can use W to reset your auto if that matters.

UltrysNov 28, 20184 votes

You're ignoring conqueror. I believe i powerballed him, taunted, and walked towards team before he got to me with alpha giving conqueror wind-up time before he actually got a hit off. He had also been in the middle of killing my raptors.

Note that it was only showing the true damage on the death recap, and the true damage number alone was 2700.

Maybe the death recap was off? I died insanely fast. Yes he was massively snowballed and fed at the time.

TheSingularityNov 28, 201818 votes

Items haven't changed much nor has Yi and what he builds since that time:

Practice tool, level 18 full build yi. Used what appears to be statistically common item 1419 item 3153 item 3124 item 3006 item 3026 item 3053 item 2140 . Damage dealt for the duration of highlander, so 7 seconds. Guinsoos is not stacked before hand. Smite, E and R are all activated once a the start With auto attacks only deals 18921 dmg total, 2703 damage per second most of which is true damage. He deals less damage when Q is used whenever possible over the same duration, about 16000 damage

Given the magic damage from guinsoos and BOTRK, and WW lack of armor, Yi's immunity to randuins slow and Yi's obscene true damage output that can't be reduced (so it didn't go through WW E, his E has no effect) it's more than possible particularly if the yi bought more damage instead of 2 defensive options

NyarlathοtepNov 28, 20184 votes

2703 damage per second most of which is true damage.

Cool. HOWEVER the comment said he died in less than a second. 0.8 specifically. Him dying in a second or more, yeah totally possible no denying that. However less? No fucking hell.

Given the magic damage from guinsoos and BOTRK, and WW lack of armor

Botrk doesnt deal magic dmg. Its physical. Ww had armour. He had 3 tank items, alongside tabi, steraks and cinderhulk.

The Bad TouchNov 28, 20186 votes

{quoted}

Cool. HOWEVER the comment said he died in less than a second. 0.8 specifically. Him dying in a second or more, yeah totally possible no denying that. However less? No fucking hell.

Botrk doesnt deal magic dmg. Its physical. Ww had armour. He had 3 tank items, alongside tabi, steraks and cinderhulk.

IE + Conquer + doublestrike + the fact yas effectively ignores the entirely of my armor + a DB/BC/LW item MF q bounce and it adds up pretty dame fast to exactly what I said.

Seriously just add up how much 3 2.5 as champs with crit and that much ability to ignore target can deal in under a second. When you figure in abilities, steriods, attack resets, ect ect... it happened exactly like I damn said it did.

I think you are seriously underestimating how much damage pre nerf Conq/IE/DB ect was doing.

Also you seem to be forgetting that True damage ignores WW E. Such a large % of the damage done was true that the E has next to jack shit to do with anything. Literally whiffed R into flay and popped. Sure it was a terrible engage. Sure it was dumb to r into stacked Conq in a minion wave.... but GD people.

NyarlathοtepNov 28, 20184 votes

Seriously just add up how much 3 2.5 as champs with crit and that much ability to ignore target can deal in under a second. When you figure in abilities, steriods, attack resets, ect ect... it happened exactly like I damage said it did.

No it wont. They had to go through a shit tons of effective health to happen in 0.8 second.

Dont get me wrong dmg is extremely high. But dmg reduction isnt so bad. The minimum they can do is give you enough time to survive 1 more second.

The Bad TouchNov 28, 20185 votes

{quoted}

No it wont. They had to go through a shit tons of effective health to happen in 0.8 second.

Dont get me wrong dmg is extremely high. But dmg reduction isnt so bad. The minimum they can do is give you enough time to survive 1 more second.

Damage reduction vs true damage... does nothing. Basic league dude.

NyarlathοtepNov 28, 20182 votes

Its not 100% true dmg. They still deal mostly reducable dmg. Only exception is yi with his e. But still he will deal mostly reducable damage. Even with conq, only 20% will be converted to true.

knobblezNov 28, 20185 votes

What you just said: "They still deal mostly reducable dmg. Only exception is yi with his e. But still he will deal mostly reducable damage"

Does he deal mostly reducable dmg or not? I don't really care I just think you should take notice that you contradicted yourself the very next sentence...

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

SalronNov 28, 20181 votes

Conqueror didn't exist last year

The Bad TouchNov 28, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Conqueror didn't exist last year

Last year, last season... same diff. we are preseason 9 now

NeokilljoyNov 28, 20188 votes

It seems a bit disingenuous to base your argument around a test with a build that has that a ton of %hp damage against practice mode dummies with 10k hp and relatively low armor.

TheSingularityNov 28, 20185 votes

Given the majority of the damage being magic and true damage the armor value is almost irrelevant. The %HP dmg is fair, given 2 defensive buys instead of potential damage buys I feel it'd even out

PepijndMNov 28, 20187 votes

Note that 'teamfight' probably means 'at least three people shooting'; maybe even all four if the WW jumped into the enemy team trying to get MF. In that case, blowing up a WW in 0.8 seconds is indeed achievable late game.

SociaI JusticeNov 28, 20183 votes

yi yas trynda can absolutely kill that in a second when they have a full build going.

FlashesNov 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2hcRYITz,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-28T10:01:09.349+0000)

I had a replay from last year where I was playing a tanky bruiser Warwick jungle into a Yi/Yas/Tryn + whatever bot was. Think it might have been Thresh + MF. Think my build was +

At full build level 18 with iron pot I died in .8 second through e in a team fight. Sure it's not full tank.... but gd it's a bulky build and ww E gives a ton of damage reduction. I mean I built to deal with crit. I built to deal with auto attacks. I built to deal with burst. I built to deal with a physical damage heavy comp. Not one bit of that actually matters sadly.

Say what you will but old league pretty much died after season 5. Everything after that has been full retard CoD mode.

Good thing I'm getting the new CoD for free with my new Laptop coming in 2 days! Now I can play CoD twice!

The Bad TouchNov 28, 201815 votes

Armor is meaningless. Health is meaningless. Hell anything short of full damage at this point is meaningless.

Whole game is CC + kill inside of CC window.

When you run into stuff like Kai'sa/Pyke/Nocturne/Akaki/Irelia or Velkos/MF/Yas/Hecarim/Urgot ect....it just feels terrible to play against.

By the time you get tanky enough to "sort of" live.... games over.

Also wanna point out that my lord does Yas + Hec or Irelia + Noc just absolutely suck as an immobile mage mid.

King BraumNov 28, 201811 votes

I remember some amazingly stupid moment I had with a friend of mine ages ago where as Nautilus I was able to walk from midlane all the way back to base while being chases and harassed by the enemy team, meanwhile now a days, nearly any cc that holds you still for a single second will prove near lethal.

TheSingularityNov 28, 20187 votes

The team mates you're meant to protect die faster than you can manage due to dmg creep
Tank item nerfs over the years have caused the loss of 850 HP and 55 armor and 20% CDR
Many tanks have been crushed due to pro play (zac, sej, tahm, shen, naut to name a few)
True damage through the roof: conqueror, IE, Yi,
Stupid amount of armor reduction (a full letality/armor shred build can bring full armor build tank down to 80 armor)
Stronger monsters makes jungling difficult as they dragon way slower atm
Very strong anti tanks (eg darius)

DoktorKaiserNov 28, 20186 votes

Game is so garbage today, tanks are both squishy and deal too much damage, as does everything else. I mean here are 2 simple examples:

game 1) where I am level 6 Zac and I successfully E into bot lane on full hp enemy ADC and supp and I fully combo them and kill them solo (with a bit of help from minions)

game 2) where I am level 6 Zac and I fail my Q after going in, thus not doing a full combo and I get utterly destroyed in 2-3 seconds

Nea104Nov 28, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Game is so garbage today, tanks are both squishy and deal too much damage [...]

Exaclty. This company got to make a double mistake about one thing.

If this is not pure incompetence, tell me what it is :D If it's intentional to design such a bad game system, that would be even worse.

MEOWQQ2675861606Dec 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Game is so garbage today, tanks are both squishy and deal too much damage, as does everything else. I mean here are 2 simple examples:

game 1) where I am level 6 Zac and I successfully E into bot lane on full hp enemy ADC and supp and I fully combo them and kill them solo (with a bit of help from minions)

game 2) where I am level 6 Zac and I fail my Q after going in, thus not doing a full combo and I get utterly destroyed in 2-3 seconds

I am sorry I reply yoy here due to I cant reply old questions. This is why I now choose the American server instead of the Chinese server, as I am a chinese. The quality of Chinese gamers makes me sick, all Chinese gamers do. and now not only at night, but in anytime. I have read a report that because of the closed mind and the strict rules of the country, everyone will vent in the virtual world. these things make me sick. I also want to say that I am worse than your game environment, these so-called Chinese, if they see the other side is also a Chinese, they will insult more fierce.

What should I do? nothing, the roit need earn chineseman' money, the company of profit never care our gameplay experience. so, I just mute them and try to find new friendly friends play it together. as far as I am concerned that I am trying to change myself if I can't change the world of game. forbid trash (them), keep a positive heart, this just a kind of relaxing way. I saw your article due to I just met a chinese rubbish who he insulted me strongly. I hope you have resolved your problem now on account of the question has passed one year. wishing you, mate.

BrokenArtistNov 28, 20184 votes

Pepega Clap as far as i know tanks became shit at the same time as ADCs, revert.crit.items

Jackom1Nov 28, 20182 votes

Currently we're having instances of both cases

Tanks that get quickly dispatched by teams that have too much damage.
Teams that can't get past a single, unkillable tank

Rito is still having a hard time balancing tank itemisation to the point where any tank can have decent survivability, without having some of them be an impassable wall.

My 2 cents point the issue toward health regeneration and healing. The tanks who have no innate healing tend to get easily killed, because resistances at some point just lose effectiveness. Meanwhile, tanks who have high innate healing effects get to survive indefinitely, even through GW and %health damage. This is also skewed in favor of AD composition, who deal better with tanks. A tank will inevitably struggle against a mixed composition, will have a hard time against a full AD comp (unless they itemise properly, but it's a fair loss, as they didn't itemise properly), but will have very few problems against a full AP composition, especially if he has a lot of healing.

This is why the best anti-AP tank right now is mundo, followed by maokai, while Galio (the supposedly go-to anti-mage tank) is relegated to a weird mage/bruiser hybrid. Take a full MR mundo vs a full AP comp.

The Bad TouchNov 28, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Currently we're having instances of both cases

Tanks that get quickly dispatched by teams that have too much damage.

Teams that can't get past a single, unkillable tank

Rito is still having a hard time balancing tank itemisation to the point where any tank can have decent survivability, without having some of them be an impassable wall.

My 2 cents point the issue toward health regeneration and healing. The tanks who have no innate healing tend to get easily killed, because resistances at some point just lose effectiveness. Meanwhile, tanks who have high innate healing effects get to survive indefinitely, even through GW and %health damage. This is also skewed in favor of AD composition, who deal better with tanks. A tank will inevitably struggle against a mixed composition, will have a hard time against a full AD comp (unless they itemise properly, but it's a fair loss, as they didn't itemise properly), but will have very few problems against a full AP composition, especially if he has a lot of healing.

This is why the best anti-AP tank right now is mundo, followed by maokai, while Galio (the supposedly go-to anti-mage tank) is relegated to a weird mage/bruiser hybrid. Take a full MR mundo vs a full AP comp.

item 3083 is the issue there.

Damage should be lower on tanks... but it needs to stick.

Princess BunheadNov 28, 20185 votes

It's really not...

The issue talked about here is in-combat selfhealing.

Jackom1Nov 28, 20183 votes

Exactly, out of combat healing isn't really an issue.

iiTimNov 29, 20182 votes

I think the problem is in your teamcomp. I would not pick 3 tank's into 5 dmg because maybe you can absorp a lot but eventually they will kill you because your team does way less dmg. You should take 1 maybe 2 tanks in your teamcomb and just try to frontline for your damge dealers. I think tank's are still pretty op. I mean somebody like a poppy orn or rammus will still 1 v 1 a lot of dmg dealers in a lot of casses.

meowwow7Nov 28, 20181 votes

while tanks can be vulnerable at times don't be blaming that for not getting any mr with a brand around

nubdub9000Nov 29, 20182 votes

{quoted}

while tanks can be vulnerable at times don't be blaming that for not getting any mr with a brand around

The thing is is not a burst mage, the arguments whole point is that he got bursted down in a mere second which consequently wouldn't offer time to cast 3 spells.

ParoeNov 29, 20182 votes

{quoted}

The thing is is not a burst mage, the arguments whole point is that he got bursted down in a mere second which consequently wouldn't offer time to cast 3 spells.

No... Brand is a burst mage. In no sense is he anything but a burst mage.

His passive is literally a delayed %HP nuke that deals a small amount of damage over time.

meowwow7Nov 29, 20183 votes

that's why you go item 3194 when you see him. the little tics, and big explosion count as the same source of dmg which in turn lowers the nuke.

Abuse meNov 28, 20181 votes

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/maokai/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/malphite/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/chogath/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/viktor/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/poppy/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/sion/euw/top/diamond

Not working in tank mains opinion means having 47-61% win rate. Feels bad.

Iota ThetaNov 28, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Abuse me,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2hcRYITz,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-11-28T15:33:17.411+0000)

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/maokai/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/malphite/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/chogath/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/viktor/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/poppy/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/sion/euw/top/diamond

Not working in tank mains opinion means having 47-61% win rate. Feels bad.

Thread about tanks, lists Viktor top because..why? He’s not a tank.

Shift it to all regions, not a single on breaks 60%. Maokai is the highest at 55%.

But notice how their playrates go as well. The less picked, the higher winrates. Malphite we don’t know what build puts him at that win rate, since he has tank and AP burst.

Tanks are usually poorer in solo because they don’t have the damage to carry and they have to rely on their team. All the ones you listed either have higher damages or other builds (AP Malphite, Int Sion). Maokai’s I believe is slightly higher than non listed tanks from Q max but also because it’s more spammable. But the thread isn’t about winrates, it’s about their defenses and how they feel to play as.

The Bad TouchNov 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Abuse me,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2hcRYITz,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-11-28T15:33:17.411+0000)

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/maokai/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/malphite/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/chogath/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/viktor/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/poppy/euw/top/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/sion/euw/top/diamond

Not working in tank mains opinion means having 47-61% win rate. Feels bad.

Diamond is a useless metric that covers less that 2% of the player base.

Abuse meNov 28, 20181 votes

Yeah, riiiight the elo that is achievable by ANYONE who is either talented or simply puts enough games into ranked that is basically soft cap for human abilities at their peak IS FUCKING USELESS IN YOUR OPINION? Are you serious? Yes please lets lower our standarts so everyone can be happy, so everyone can celebrate their success. Reached Silver 5 this season? GOOD JOB. EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE STATISTICALLY BELOW AVERAGE. Fuck off dude, anyone can get a diamond not anyone can get challenger. You should base your metrics on something you have to work for otherwise you will start asking for equal pay for mcdonalds employees and fucking surgeons. Oh wait, thats exactly what NA does.

3TWarriorNov 29, 20181 votes

do you have any idea how much surgeons make? You may be confusing that NA wants nurses and emergency medical response teams to have an increase in wages, but no one is saying that mcdonald's workers should make as much as surgeons, who coincidentally make as much in a single day as most people do in a month or more...and do this multiple times per month

People want McDonald's to increase its wages because rent and cost of living has gone up while wages remain the same. It is also one of the highest revenue chains in the nation

but at the same time, NA has a job demand of 5 people to every 1 available job. People are not being unreasonable. Our country has been ruined!

Abuse meNov 30, 20181 votes

And that supports your argument how? Because I literally dont care. What I care about is why should Diamond + be useless metric.

3TWarriorNov 30, 20181 votes

I'm not the person that commented that...

I could attempt to say something about matchmaking, but I don't know enough about it. The general state seems to be that even high elo players have a tough time getting back in

SithesisLordNov 28, 20183 votes

Not working in tank mains opinion means having 47-61% win rate. Feels bad.

Because winrate is the only statistic one should use to check for champion strength, instead of, y'know, win, pick and ban rates together.

Maokai is mostly used a counterpick, or by mains/OTPs given his pick rate, and almost only target/tilt banned given his non existent ban rate.

You can say the same for Malphite too.

Cho'Gath is not doing so hot either. Also, he's not a tank.

Viktor is a problematic champion in top lane, while being somewhat weak in mid. He's also, factually, not a tank. A champion's build does not suddenly change the class they belong into.

Poppy is somewhat viable only because the current top lane meta involves lots of dashes. And Poppy has a dedicated fuck you button to those dashes.

Sion while he is a strong champion right now, he's not banned nearly as much as other champions, meaning that people don´t mind playing against him or have the tools to deal with him.

Worldwide statistics mean a lot, you know?

Abuse meNov 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because winrate is the only statistic one should use to check for champion strength, instead of, y'know, win, pick and ban rates together.

Noone will ban tanks because noone picks them. Ever wondered why they had so low pick and ban rate in tank meta? BECAUSE TANKS ARE FUCKING BORING. You literally have to buff them to the point when noone can deal with them and only then their pick rates will TIE with fighters. Also banning tanks is completely pointless. They all have same strength and weakness.

Worldwide statistics mean a lot, you know?

It doesnt mean shit, EUW and korean metas are only metas that matter. NA meta is nothing else than 2 week old EUW meta and EUW meta is Korean meta minus low elo. World wide means including servers that failed to put any teams into LCS. You are asking to include Vietnam Turkey OCE and Japan, servers that are literally dogshit compared to everyone else.

SithesisLordNov 28, 20184 votes

BECAUSE TANKS ARE FUCKING BORING

Subjective

You literally have to buff them to the point when noone can deal with them and only then their pick rates will TIE with fighters

Sion is pretty close to having pick rates similar to other Bruisers. And people can still deal with him.

Also banning tanks is completely pointless.

Not really. You generally want Armor stackers out of the way if you´re planning a full AD team without any Conqueror user, so Malphite and Rammus should be somewhat priority bans in that case.