The tank meta is dumb. I build damage items and 2 or 3 penetration items, and tanks still steal the show with overall damage done. You need to fix this mess. Please, it's dumb when there is absolutely no counter to an enemy team with several tanks.
ViashinoWizard8 votes"Preseason changes will kill tanks." -Boards 2 months ago
Lovelle8 votesIt may be dumb, but the alternative is much worse for the game. Less champions are viable when penetration > resists than vice-versa. Penetration should be a situational buy instead of a brain-dead rush like it's been since season 3.
Why not try building some defense yourself instead of going glass cannon? Said tanks won't typically be investing in penetration, so even one defensive item can go a long way toward mitigating their damage output.
Surfer Ashe3 votesIt may be dumb, but the alternative is much worse for the game. Less champions are viable when penetration > resists than vice-versa.
True, but watching an Iceborn Sunfire cape Malphite 100-0 Vayne in his ultimate should ring some bells.
But again, I'm watching brusiers and tankier champs getting 150 armor, clicking on them and seeing "Bonus Armor" only being about 40-50, making buying LW pathetic.
Lovelle7 votes[{quoted}](name=Surfer Ashe,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=482if1GI,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-12-26T07:11:28.640+0000)
True, but watching an Iceborn Sunfire cape Malphite 100-0 Vayne in his ultimate should ring some bells.
But again, I'm watching brusiers and tankier champs getting 150 armor, clicking on them and seeing "Bonus Armor" only being about 40-50, making buying LW pathetic.
Malphite has always been able to destroy Vayne. He is one of her very few hard counters. He actually did it much better in the past than he does now, since IBG doesn't even have AP anymore.
Surfer Ashe2 votesMalphite has always been able to destroy Vayne. He is one of her very few hard counters. He actually did it much better in the past than he does now, since IBG doesn't even have AP anymore.
But now he does that to basically any ADC. Vayne was just an anecdote.
Xengre1 votesBuild a little bit of Mres + HP such as BV/Spirit and watch that not happen anymore. BV is particularly great for stopping his initiation. You could even grab an armor + HP item and grab GA for more armor and some mres to make ADC moderately tanky and rest offensive. Is there an issue with some tanky champs doing too much damage while going almost entirely tank? Yeah, but the real issue there could be contributed to often too many damage types (physical, magic, and possibly true damage) making it hard to itemize properly against them.
Frikgeek1 votesYou can just flash his ult. After that he's pretty screwed.
Surfer Ashe1 votesYou can just flash his ult. After that he's pretty screwed.
You can flash a lot of things and the enemy would be screwed.
But really, 80% of the time it isn't possible.
Frikgeek1 votesWhy not? Unless you're forcing teamfights more than once every 5 minutes you shouldn't have to worry about it. It's not like a squishy adc will have to deal with a Malphite in the laning phase when your flash CD is more important.
IcyPepper5 votesUm, it's not a tank meta at the moment.
Although, I'm not sure if you're talking about flat or scaling penetration items, and which kind. LW and attack damage builds are best for beating tanks, due to the sustained damage. Flat armor penetration is mostly useful on squishies in the first place, a Zed is not supposed to 100-0 a Sion on an equal playing field. As for magic damage, mostly suited for burst against squishies since tanks are supposed to be able to shrug off a bit more burst (which ties into their weakness with sustained damage).
Obviously everything has their exceptions, but I think my explanation is okay? Although it really isn't a tank meta...
ManBearPig9162 votesUm, it's not a tank meta at the moment.
Although, I'm not sure if you're talking about flat or scaling penetration items, and which kind. LW and attack damage builds are best for beating tanks, due to the sustained damage. Flat armor penetration is mostly useful on squishies in the first place, a Zed is not supposed to 100-0 a Sion on an equal playing field. As for magic damage, mostly suited for burst against squishies since tanks are supposed to be able to shrug off a bit more burst (which ties into their weakness with sustained damage).
Obviously everything has their exceptions, but I think my explanation is okay? Although it really isn't a tank meta...
But, tanks consistently top damage charts. They do it so often.
IcyPepper3 votesWhich role in particular? And compared to carries, or a specific class?
What champions in particular are noticeable outliers and are dealing abnormal amounts of damage?
Are there any problem items, or are you sure it's the champion?
Xengre2 votesRemember, one of the reasons tanks put out so much damage is because they survive so much longer to do more damage. It isn't that their damage is actually outright comparable to, say, an ADC. It is a matter of them just going through their rotations, etc., more times than other champs in a fight and possibly dying a lot less during the course of the game compared to other roles. Get a lil' tanky with your ADC unless your aiming for the hyper carry, just know when the enemy comp may make this a problem and itemize for it.
Angry Monster1 votesi am not sure if you know the difference between a tank and a brusier/juggernaut.
IcyPepper1 votesI'm waiting...
insaiyanbacca2 voteslol not even a tank meta, it's a fighter/mage meta tbh. and actually most tanks only top the damage charts because most of their damage is aoe meaning they could have a 200 damage spell but it could possibly apply that damage to 5 people meaning it will show on the damage charts as 1k damage when each person only took 200.
EndlessSorcerer2 votesand tanks still steal the show with overall damage done.
Tanks typically survive longer in fights, giving them more time to deal damage.
Damage champions typically deal single-target damage while tanks typically deals AoE damage.
Damage dealt calculations occur after resistances are applied; tanks are typically trying to kill squishy champions (who don't mitigate the damage they take) and squishies are trying to kill tank champions (who mitigate the damage they take).
ManBearPig9161 votesI just faced a trundle as rengar. The dude rushed tank items at first, and got a maw and trinity force by end game. My Rengar had damage items and lifesteal. when I 1v1'd him, and I 5-stacked my Q for attack speed, trundle STILL out dueled me. He had 85% life remaining.
I had a ravenous hydra and bloodthirster finished, with boots.
He had a hexdrinker and deadman's plate, and sterak's gage built, and a longsword.
How can I, with 30% plus lifesteal, lose to a tanky trundle, such that he kills me and I only did 15% damage on him. I had 4 stacks of my resource, so I Q'd, then Q'd for attack speed, and I pressed my active on the hydra. I did 15% of his max hp in damage, and he 100-0 me with mostly tank items.
I then rushed a last whisper, but it was too late.
This patch heavily favors tanks. You all know I'm right.
Lovelle6 votesI just faced a trundle as rengar. The dude rushed tank items at first, and got a maw and trinity force by end game. My Rengar had damage items and lifesteal. when I 1v1'd him, and I 5-stacked my Q for attack speed, trundle STILL out dueled me. He had 85% life remaining.
I had a ravenous hydra and bloodthirster finished, with boots.
He had a hexdrinker and deadman's plate, and sterak's gage built, and a longsword.
How can I, with 30% plus lifesteal, lose to a tanky trundle, such that he kills me and I only did 15% damage on him. I had 4 stacks of my resource, so I Q'd, then Q'd for attack speed, and I pressed my active on the hydra. I did 15% of his max hp in damage, and he 100-0 me with mostly tank items.
I then rushed a last whisper, but it was too late.
This patch heavily favors tanks. You all know I'm right.
Assuming even gold, Rengar can't 1v1 Trundle no matter what he builds. He's never been able to. Nothing in Rengar's kit helps him beat Trundle, while everything in Trundle's kit helps him beat Rengar.
Next time try using Teemo or any mobile, AP burst champion like Karma or Ahri. They are Trundle's kryptonite. Quinn is pretty good against him as well.
Fiora, Jax, and Tryn can hang with Trundle, but outdueling him with them takes some finesse.
GeorgeKnightRT1 votesRengar can 1vs1 most things lategame if he goes for the ADC crit build on top of blood thister, empowered q crits are just too strong, the crit build is riskier and scales slower but its the only way to get hyperscaling damage on rengo.
Tis a nice day4 votesRengar kills stuff fast but Trundle kills stuff steadily. If Rengar can't instagib a Trundle, he will almost certainly come out on the losing end of a 1v1.
WickedCrow5 votesTanks counter Assassins, let alone Trundles W gives him increased Attack speed AND healing plus his Q STEALS your AD and buffs his own. IF he ulted you, then what hp and defenses you did have were gone. You can seriously think standing toe-to-toe with a fighter like Trundle with an assassin is gunna mean you win, especially if hes building tank to reduce your burst.
LankPants8 votesI just faced a trundle as rengar. The dude rushed tank items at first, and got a maw and trinity force by end game. My Rengar had damage items and lifesteal. when I 1v1'd him, and I 5-stacked my Q for attack speed, trundle STILL out dueled me. He had 85% life remaining.
I had a ravenous hydra and bloodthirster finished, with boots.
He had a hexdrinker and deadman's plate, and sterak's gage built, and a longsword.
You tried to 1v1 a Trundle, who is a great duellist, who was significantly ahead and built to deal with you. You shouldn't be able to beat him 1v1.
DarthSpectrum1 votesBefore anyone down votes this thread, what OP said is true.
The nerf to LW to penetrate % Total Armor to Bonus Armor hurt AD champions a lot. Considering that most champions have upward of 90 armor late game, AD champions lose equivalent of 36, if not more, flat armor pen at level 18.
Armor scales in a logarithmic function in terms of the % damage mitigated vs actual armor value. For each point of armor, you receive 1% less physical damage than before. At 100 armor, you receive 50%, at 400 armor, you receive 25% damage. To elaborate, it is 1% of the damage you would have take given your current armor value for each point of armor. So it scales less and less because you would take less damage.
Generally, Logarithmic function is bad, it takes 4 times more armor to reduce 2 times more damage. However, armor is in a direct relation with health. The product of these two stats leads to some extremely high values on tanks.
Without armor pen, it might take an ADC with a generous 500 AD around 30 to 40 autos minimum to kill a tank with max armor and around 4k health. That is why people "complain" about the tank metas.
To tanks players, it might not feel that overpowered, but to other players in the game, there is literally nothing they can do to the tanks.
Without 
, 
, 
, or 
who can deal % true health damage or shred tanks with AP (Void staff still calculates from total MR), there isn't much that can be done to tanks. Realistically, no tanks are going to just sit there and let you wail on them. Imagine that level of effective health on a champion such as Sion or Volibear.
Black Cleaver helps, but it often requires someone else on the team besides the ADC to build it. Resistance should always counter flat penetration, but it should not also counter % penetration.
The tank players who argue that this mechanic is healthy are just hypocritical. Tank players complained about penetration being too overpowered in season 3/4 while assassin players argued that it was justified. Now the tank players are the ones defending an unfair mechanic.
LankPants5 votesThe nerf to LW to penetrate % Total Armor to Bonus Armor hurt AD champions a lot. Considering that most champions have upward of 90 armor late game, AD champions lose equivalent of 36, if not more, flat armor pen at level 18.
Have you actually tried doing the math on this?
Against a tank with 90 base Armour (which is fairly high end), 160 bonus, and enough HP for 15% bonus damage, with 100AD 0 crit (damage is irrelevant since there's a % reduction)
100x(100/(100+(0.65x250)))=38.1 1.15x(100x(100/(100+90+(0.6x160))))=40.29
You do more damage against tanky targets with the new LW upgrade, especially with it being buffed next patch.
Without armor pen, it might take an ADC with a generous 500 AD around 30 to 40 autos minimum to kill a tank with max armor and around 4k health. That is why people "complain" about the tank metas.
You're either exaggerating or BSing. There's no way it takes an ADC over 15 seconds to down a tank. If it does you're building very wrong.
ProfDrDeath1 votesHave you actually tried doing the math on this?
Against a tank with 90 base Armour (which is fairly high end), 160 bonus, and enough HP for 15% bonus damage, with 100AD 0 crit (damage is irrelevant since there's a % reduction)
100x(100/(100+(0.65x250)))=38.1 1.15x(100x(100/(100+90+(0.6x160))))=40.29
You do more damage against tanky targets with the new LW upgrade, especially with it being buffed next patch.
Those figures are true in a vacuum situation, with an abstract amount of AD.
However, you should consider that, in a real situation, items restrict the maximum damage you can put out. And AD values, as well as AS, went down across the board...
LankPants1 votesThose figures are true in a vacuum situation, with an abstract amount of AD.
The amount of AD doesn't matter, it's a ~2% increase in damage. If you have 200 AD your damage will increase by 4, if you have 50 it will increase by 1, it always increases your damage against those (fairly mid range for a tank) defensive stats though.
However, you should consider that, in a real situation, items restrict the maximum damage you can put out. And AD values, as well as AS, went down across the board...
So did defensive stats though. Cinderhulk's taken hit after hit, Frozen Heart's not that good anymore and Thornmail's complete trash.
This point flows both ways.
Blumpkin Nation1 votesI blame Deadman's. That extra Physical damage for AP Tanks is too much. Seeing it on Naut is scary.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votesno matter what champion it is: full damage loses to tank, tank loses to bruiser and bruiser wins against full damage.
bruiser is the best build for dueling, since season 1. welcome to league.
Sasogwa1 votes[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=482if1GI,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-12-26T10:38:51.348+0000)
no matter what champion it is: full damage loses to tank, tank loses to bruiser and bruiser wins against full damage.
bruiser is the best build for dueling, since season 1. welcome to league.
Except lategame, full tank can get rekt by full damage, if he has pen and lifesteal and already solid dmg. Also depends on the champion. There are burst champions and dps sustained champions. example : Talon/Yi for instance.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votessure some tanks will have big trouble against full build full damage yi but a full damage yi will lose mega hard to a bruiser yi. for dueling, bruiser build is simply the best since defensive items are so strong by themselves but if you stack them they become significantly weaker.
Sasogwa1 votes[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=482if1GI,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2015-12-26T10:47:45.928+0000)
sure some tanks will have big trouble against full build full damage yi but a full damage yi will lose mega hard to a bruiser yi. for dueling, bruiser build is simply the best since defensive items are so strong by themselves but if you stack them they become significantly weaker.
True.
IcyPepper1 votes?
I thought it was:
sustained damage beat tank, tank beat burst, burst beat sustained damage
LankPants1 votesThat's a very simplistic way of looking at damage types and class advantage.
Bruisers are generally tanky sustained damage dealers who will typically win any 1v1 fight.
An average ADC will lose a 1v1 to any non-support, there's exeptions like Graves and Lucian, but most of the class aren't 1v1 champs. If a Sej or Amumu catches out an ADC 1v1 at even items they can most likely 1v1 them even though typically ADCs have an edge over tanks in team fights.
What people mean when they say ADCs beat tanks is that in a teamfight scenario an ADC is better at killing a tank than a tank is at killing an ADC on average. The ADC benefits more damage wise from their team supporting them than a tank.
IcyPepper1 votesWell yeah, that's why it's important to learn positioning and teamwork mechanics.
ADC's can be bursted by almost anyone, the price of being a glass cannon. That's why they have to use all of their tools to survive as well as deal damage!
But yes, I admit that thingy I posted is very simplistic, and leaves out all the in-betweens and exceptions and whatever else. I like yours better.
ManBearPig9161 votes[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=482if1GI,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-12-26T10:38:51.348+0000)
no matter what champion it is: full damage loses to tank, tank loses to bruiser and bruiser wins against full damage.
bruiser is the best build for dueling, since season 1. welcome to league.
Full Damage < Tank Tank < Bruiser Full Damage < Bruiser
When does full damage win?
AyRe CoNteMpT1 voteswell full damage only wins against champions who have bad dueling potential against you. its called assassinating.
full damage builds can only assassinate because in a fight, they would lose against bruiser builds hardcore. if they are ranged, they need protection from their team to be able to utilize their full damage because otherwise they would lose a 1on1 against any bruiser who comes onto them.
ManBearPig9161 votesIt's great that tanks do more than soak up damage, but it's such that they are the top damage dealers now. That's too much compensation for how they were in the past.