Karma Gameplay and Viability

woodvsmurph·Jun 7, 2017·1 votes·344 views

Just a quick thought - I remember awhile back reading about a Riot employee and some karma fans talk about tuning her kit to make it more effective for playing as both mid and support. And I think this change could go a long way to making her a better pick.

Make karma's q and empowered q so that either the middle or back edge of q stops when it first hits an enemy rather than the front edge. In other words - if karma lands empowered q to farm the melee minions, the rest of q would travel so that it would hit the caster minions behind them instead of stopping short so that only the front 1/3 of q is damaging enemies/minions. In a bot duel, this means the adc can't hide directly behind the support and avoid the q either - they'd both get hit if the adc stood TOO CLOSE behind their support. Thus she would have better waveclear/farming/pushing/harass without ever adjusting actual stats.

7 Comments

IxtaliKingJun 8, 20173 votes

How about making RQ ground targeted so she could place it wherever she wants within the Q range (950 units)?

Making RQ pass through units while damaging them feels like just taking away counterplay by making the spell more forgiving.

If It were ground targeted the spell would have more counterplay in the sense that Karma would have an increased margin of error (could cast too far or too short).

I think any changes Karma gets should be aimed at decreasing her reliability and rewarding skilled play.

woodvsmurphJun 9, 20171 votes

By ground targeted I assume you mean like cho'gath q? This would actually make her stronger than what I suggest. I'm not talking like ezreal ult where it passes through units. I'm saying the first targets hit are the near edge of the circle instead of the far edge. As in a melee can't hide behind melee creeps to dodge her q, but they could stay behind casters if she hit melee creeps and not get hit since size of her q doesn't reach past caster minions if she's hitting the melee's. This actually introduces more skill than something like a cho q for karma would - cho's q is delayed too much to be useful in many cases and it's for a reason. Instant knockups would just be too good on him.

IxtaliKingJun 10, 20171 votes

Well I was thinking more like Lux's E, so the RQ would still have a travel time. My reasons for suggesting this:

Refining her identity by giving her RQ a cast type more fitting of a Battlemage. Her current RQ functions like an Artillery ability, being harder to avoid and most effective at max range. RQ being ground targeted would make the spell more reliable at closer ranges, and less reliable at max range.
Increasing her mid lane viability by giving her potential backline access if she's deep enough in the fight.
Making RQ more useful as a strategic zoning tool when not building AP, being able to place it where you want it to influence enemy movements etc...

Values like damage, projectile speed, slow % etc... can all be all be adjusted accordingly. But I do think a change like this would have to be accompanied by changes to her other Mantras, to give Karma a REAL mastery curve. Which is what she needs desperately.

Edit: Btw, I was imagining your Q suggestion a little bit like Bard's meep AoE cone?

woodvsmurphJun 12, 20171 votes

Yes - similar to bard meep damage. And I do see the potential in your suggested r+q ability. Probably need some kind of warning indicator like cho q or zac e has. But it could be doable - only question is if Riot would consider it too similar to other champs' abilities if changed.

ProtestantCaesarJun 7, 20171 votes

Doesn't it already do that? I'm pretty sure the explosion is centered on the place where the skillshot hit an enemy.

waiting for WoWJun 7, 20171 votes

Umm what? Lmao

Karma already has some of the most oppressive poke in the game hands down. Karma's poke damage is disgusting enough as it is for a support champion, and now you want to take away any risk to her having to position in order to harass?

woodvsmurphJun 7, 20171 votes

I am not a karma fan. I would assume Riot would adjust the DAMAGE output of each individual q accordingly. But it would make farming mid less awkward. As far as I am concerned with supports, malz, karma, brand and probably a few others can go die. Leona, braum, thresh, lulu (maybe some tuning needed), zyra (same), morgana, naut, sona, soraka, janna are supports. Karma is oppressive with her poke, but if your adc is decent and returns harass properly instead of just farming obliviously she is manageable - plus karma falls off compared to many other supports later in the game due to shield being less spammable than other supports, having only 1 reliable poke/damage tool, and lacking a true ult. If you want to talk oppressive, look at freaking brand. He was toxic to lane against before mage update and that just gave him more damage without any tradeoff. You can't tank his damage as a tank to protect your adc. You can't shield his damage or heal as a healer/shield support, and he deals as much or more poke damage more reliably than any other poke support. I recall when morgana became so popular as a support - they nerfed her w into uselessness unless the enemy is really low because of her safety and ability to poke out the enemy bot lane. But brand and (earlier this year) malz come bot and do the same thing and it's just healthy diversity? Give me a break. They have just as much safety as morg ever did - if not more, and do more poke damage than she ever did - even before the huge nerf to her w. So, if any "support" needs a nerf to their poke/damage it is brand.