To all those saying Tryndamere's chances to crit you 3 times in a row are 35% * 35% * 0.35 ~= 4.3%

Critkeeper··30 votes·3,771 views

Old timer tryndamere veteran here.

This is how the pseduo rng of league works:

Every successive critical strike will reduce the chances of the next attack being a critical strike-- the reduction is based on how much critical strike chance you have. More critical strike chance equates to a lower reduction; 100% critical strikes chance means 0% reduction. The reduction as a function of critical strike chance is non linear. It probably depends on how long the string of crits is too.

Every successive basic attack that isn't a critical strike will increase the chances of the next attack being a critical strike-- the increase is based on how much critical strike chance you have. More critical strike chance equates to a greater increase; 0% critical strike chance means 0% increase. The increase as a function of critical strike chance is non linear. In fact it probably depends on how long the string of non crits are so far too.

This means the chances of actually critically striking 3 times in a row with 35% crit chance are less than 0.35 * 0.35 * 0.35 = 4.3%, because your effective critical strike chance will be reduced for each successive crit. It is probably closer to 0.35 * 0.3 * 0.2 = 2.1% (not sure about the exact coefficients since those aren't public and I haven't tried to collect data to fit the curve myself)

However-- and here is the important bit, if your critical strike chance CHANGES, the algorithm will reset.

So an experienced and informed Tryndamere player will not spin on you at full fury; instead he will try to walk up to you with around 85 fury. He has a 29.75% chance of doing a crit assuming no critical strike items or runes. If he manages to get a critical strike with 85 fury, it will bring him up to 95 fury. His fury has changed so the algorithm has reset. His chance of critically striking you at 95 fury is 33.25%. Regardless of whether he critically strikes you or not, his fury will change again, resetting the algorithm.

So his chances look more like 0.2975 * 0.3325 * 0.35 if he games the system and crits three times in a row.

If he crits twice in a row and misses the third crit, his chances of getting three crits out of four attacks look like 0.2975 * 0.3325 * X where X is GREATER than 0.35, because his third attack DOESN'T change his critical strike chance because he's already capped on full fury, but the fact that it wasn't a critical slightly increases his chance of making a crit on the next attack.

Generally a very good Tryndamere will try to use Spinning slash to help him game the system too, because it grants 2 fury per target it hits-- therefore resetting the algorithm.

44 Comments

Shadòw31 votes

the problem is that there even is a rng based chance to lose lane right from the start.

this is somehow just fucked up.

Marshbouy21 votes

That's the important part. You shouldn't lose a lane because tryndamere got lucky against you.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Pay attention to the math.

DrCyanide3 votes

What part of the math doesn't rely on a dice roll to get started?

Regardless of how the math manipulates that dice roll, it's still a dice roll.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

it will happen with such severe infrequency that it will not have a consequential impact on your ranking nor your overall record.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

You aren't even paying attention.

Shadòw6 votes

i know it isn't the point of the post, but it is still important to say.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

It's inaccurate to say.

It's an acutely narrow-minded viewpoint that does not take into consideration all the games that you will be playing (assuming we are talking about ranked).

Ahristocats20 votes

but it can still happen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzPljxmcmuA

RNG no matter if it's pseudo or not pseudo is toxic itself even if it's 4% or 2% chance it can still happen and fuck your game

TimX24968B4 votes

3 crits off that 1% crit chance rune can still happen. quinn top can still hapen.

there are bigger problems you guys are missing out on.

Danjeng1 votes

Holy that's busted. Do all crits grant knockbacks or is it just that blue hero? Also I never knew Dota 2 looked so good. Too bad my laptop can't run those beautiful 3D environments. But it's okay, because then I can spend more time with the best community in the world here.

Ahristocats2 votes

this isn't crit, this is bash this "blue hero" has an ability that gives him 17% chance of bashing dealing bonus damage and knocking back, and yes it's pseudo-random

but it doesn't matter, because it's still RNG and it means that there is still a chance for him to bash you a lot of time in a row

Danjeng2 votes

Anything pseudo-random isn't that fun to play against or as. It takes away power from the player and gives it to the RNGods. A damage amplifier based off crit chance/damage would keep damage the same, without relying on very lucky 3 in a row crits.

Tryndamere is supposed to be a barbarian. He wants to be in the midst of battle, slamming his giant blade down to crush the skulls of his enemies, slicing down the guts of his foes. An uncontrollable berserker is what he should be. But instead, he's just an annoying splitpusher who wins early trades because he's lucky, or loses because he's not. His playstyle is spin in for some crits, spin away. Press ult and run away if low. That doesn't seem like a berserker to me.

Fury should make him increasingly more violent the longer he stays in combat and decay rapidly a second after he stops attacking. He will need to constantly attack to upkeep his fury. And having more fury will make it easier to keep attacking and get more fury from attacks. Fits the whole "really angry guy" fantasy.

Apocalypsic1 votes

When I first started messing around on DoTA spirit breaker was aids incarnate.

l Helios l1 votes

A mechanism like crit that has existed since the olden days, basically back to DnD days, would be very hard to make not toxic and also "fair," as in not able to be overtly manipulated. As it is, I doubt it can be much better beyond attempting to smooth out algorithms and reduce the randomness, but at that point it's hard to call it fair since it could be argued to blatantly favor one party in the situation.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

No, 4% or 2% means it will never happen.

Or rather, it will happen with such severe infrequency that it will not have a consequential impact on your ranking nor your overall record.

PhDs Nuts2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cd3MAEtY,comment-id=00020003,timestamp=2017-07-08T23:17:23.354+0000)

No, 4% or 2% means it will never happen.

lol did you really just say that? 4% means that it should happen once every 25 attempts. Tryndamere isn't only autoattacking someone 3 times in a row once per game. If it's a 96% chance for him NOT to crit 3 times in a row, if he gets 3 consecutive autoattacks on you 7 times in a game, there's a 25% chance he'll get 3 crits in a row at least once (0.96 ^ 7).

And this is for THREE IN A ROW. Two crits in a row is enough to win the lane at level 1-2.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Edited the second part.

And no, Tryndamere will not get that many chances that early in the game unless you are playing one of the few people that Tryndamere can reliably bully.

Especially at level 1-2, Tryndamere is not going to get that many chances to get 3 AA. Over the grand scheme of all the lanes that the Trynd is going to play, going all in and fishing for 2-3 crits is going to lose him more lanes and he will drop in rank.

Need Gold 4 Tent4 votes

interesting, learning something new every day. upvoted.

Darkdemon6533 votes

{quoted} However-- and here is the important bit, if your critical strike chance CHANGES, the algorithm will reset.

Do you have data or a source to support that?

Critkeeper2 votes

{quoted}

Do you have data or a source to support that?

I recall morello saying something about it a long time ago, but I never kept a link or anything like that.

Danjeng3 votes

I would have thought your username would have been verification enough.

rtbf2034234111 votes

It's changed you no longer have the "less chance to crit" or "more chance to crit". They changed it so that if you have 30% crit it is 30 and nothing else. so on and so on.

Leonerdo3 votes

Upvoted for accurate math, and accurate username.

nice table2 votes

this sounds like the most bullshit I've ever read, is there actually anything to base this off of?

FurriesAreHot3 votes

The modern mathematics system

nice table1 votes

This means the chances of actually critically striking 3 times in a row with 35% crit chance are less than 0.35 * 0.35 * 0.35 = 4.3%, because your effective critical strike chance will be reduced for each successive crit. It is probably closer to 0.35 * 0.3 * 0.2 = 2.1% (not sure about the exact coefficients since those aren't public and I haven't tried to collect data to fit the curve myself)

this is not how modern mathematics work at all

TeCoolMage2 votes

Ugh you've managed to make me hate tryndamere for showing me the obscure and completely unintuitive mechanics he uses

Poske2 votes

I doubt what you are saying is accurate...

FantasySniper1 votes

{quoted}

However-- and here is the important bit, if your critical strike chance CHANGES, the algorithm will reset.

So an experienced and informed Tryndamere player will not spin on you at full fury; instead he will try to walk up to you with around 85 fury. He has a 29.75% chance of doing a crit assuming no critical strike items or runes. If he manages to get a critical strike with 85 fury, it will bring him up to 95 fury. His fury has changed so the algorithm has reset. His chance of critically striking you at 95 fury is 33.25%. Regardless of whether he critically strikes you or not, his fury will change again, resetting the algorithm.

Now that is bullshit game design right there.

4th3t0s2 votes

Really just oversight regarding Tryn, since he's literally the ONLY champ with a constantly changing crit chance, thanks to his passive.

FantasySniper2 votes

Considering that Trynd is one of the oldest champions in the game, that's more than just oversight - it's neglect.

4th3t0s1 votes

I'm not condoning their lack of attention regarding this, just that it likely wasn't years of intentional neglect.

Phizixx1 votes

as far as this math This means the chances of actually critically striking 3 times in a row with 35% crit chance are less than 0.35 * 0.35 * 0.35 = 4.3%, because your effective critical strike chance will be reduced for each successive crit. It is probably closer to 0.35 * 0.3 * 0.2 = 2.1% (not sure about the exact coefficients since those aren't public and I haven't tried to collect data to fit the curve myself)

did u factor in the non crits at all?

like...your saying your crit chance increases as you have crit chance but havent landed a successful one... IDK the value on it so lets call it 5% extra crit chance after your first non crit hit.....now say you had 35% "base" (how much u have to start)

this would bring you up to 40%... now does the crit reduction work from this 40% or the 35 u have base?

or does overall, it only work downward?

I Q1 votes

It works both ways, but because his crit is constantly changing, it resets the system so it doesnt get the bonus.

Rand0mH3r0X1 votes

Old school Tryndamere player, but doesn't include a tldr. I doubt you're even a real human. Are you just a bot, trying to acquire feelings after several years of completing tasks and processes?

You are too complex for such "feels" and "opinions." You must show mathematically, and through repeated calculation. Go my bot, there is not a world for you to exist other than inside the machine.

General Esdeath 1 votes

Thank you, I'm sick of people telling me Trynd is fine with the excuse of "You don't main him xDD" when they never even PLAYED him.

FenricsShield1 votes

I love posts like this. Upvoted.

Frightning1 votes

This brings me to something that I think riot overlooked when they went away from a standard RNG for crit to an entropy based RNG system: You can stack the dice for trades by paying attention to whether or not you're on a dry spell and initiating trades when you are them. Literally it's an exploitable RNG, though it does do the job of decreasing average run length (and average dry-spell length) relative to a 'pure' RNG.

Critkeeper1 votes

{quoted}

This brings me to something that I think riot overlooked when they went away from a standard RNG for crit to an entropy based RNG system: You can stack the dice for trades by paying attention to whether or not you're on a dry spell and initiating trades when you are them. Literally it's an exploitable RNG, though it does do the job of decreasing average run length (and average dry-spell length) relative to a 'pure' RNG.

Riot patched the most abusive case of that away by making it so that the algorithm resets when you change targets.

Frightning1 votes

Ok, that's a pretty smart solution.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

it happened few times and you basically lose lane. the bigger problem i have with trynd is that how he can just ignore buying ad. rush 2 zeal items and still ruin you. that shouldn't happen. but he has high base ad and he gets too much free ad from his Q. its ridiculous.

i've been critted 4 times in a row by trynd before. it does happen. psuedo rng is still rng.

rtbf2034234111 votes

A double crit with a spin is enough to kill you in lane it happened to me the only two times i played against trynda. He should be punished by just walking into your 6 minions and basic attack you but nope, both time he went up to me, with 10% crit chance, and critted against me then he did it again on the third hit both times in two different games. Since i play a lot of trynd i know how unlikely this is so this just ruins my entire game and crushes my soul because i know hes just gonna win because of it. Thats why i hate it, even though it's unlikely it does happen, and it did happen to me. It has happened in the 1 out of 20 games that I've played that i manage to crit twice within three hits. I think they should just remove the crit from trynda because it's absolutely soul crushing and tilting to experience the double crit.

Heretus1 votes

Just finished a game where level 1 trynda with doran blade crited me 4 times in a row , even he admitted that took place.

Such a thing should not be possible

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