What are tanks supposed to be exactly?

Brascus·May 12, 2017·12 votes·1,735 views

I thought they were supposed to be damage sponges that use a lot of utility to draw aggro, and have next to no damage. I feel like they're being balanced on a knife edge where their damage isn't great but somehow still matters? So they're not that tanky but still technically tankier than non-tanks.

Being tanky doesn't seem to really matter though, whoever engages harder will secure burst and reduce team sizes in seconds. There's no difference between a tank and a non tank failing an engage, both will die immediately after when their team doesn't follow up.

So what purpose does a tank have if they're only a tank by technicality?

33 Comments

dominusxMay 12, 201713 votes

Sion this is a tank. The best designed tank in league. Actually the only well designed tank in league.

Durable draws attention and WILL hurt you if you dont dodge his shit. But eveyrthing he does is outplayable and has windup times.

BrascusMay 12, 20172 votes

I always thought of Alistar Leona as the poster children of tanky tanks. The part where sion hurts people makes him more of a juggernaut than a tank to me.

RalanrMay 12, 20176 votes

I dislike considering Alistar as the poster child of tanks because you can't actually avoid the combo.

If he was a top laner, he'd be the most annoying thing ever.

dominusxMay 12, 20172 votes

he was a toplane for a while.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 12, 20171 votes

well they kinda ruined him... he use to be the op jungler cuz you coudnt escape his ganks and he was so damn tanky he could just turret dive and it wouldnt matter

RalanrMay 12, 20171 votes

Good reason to kill his jungling then.

dominusxMay 12, 20171 votes

moscow 5 alistar jungle diving from wraith camps. i will never forget that GOOD TIMES LADS.

ChønklordMay 12, 20177 votes

I love how Riot says "we don't want to homogenize champions by pigeon-holing them into narrow, confined roles/classes. We want players to be creative and be able to experiment with champions of one class/role in another role/lane than intended!"

...Then they turn around and literally nerf every. single. fucking. off-meta. build. or. playstyle.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoMay 12, 20173 votes

exactly and that is what they are doing more and more because someone finds an off meta build or play style that really releases the power of a champ and every one cries and complains about it... and riot does exactly what you say they do...

mal support ... gutted. ali jungle, no more... ap yi gone... and countless others

RalanrMay 12, 20177 votes

Probably because they start to become a balance problem or become way better than their primary builds by removing weaknesses.

I'm all for build diversity, but if not handled carefully we get things like Tank Yasuo who end up lacking a weakness.

ChønklordMay 12, 20171 votes

While this is correct in certain instances, show me one "balanced/reworked" off-meta build or champion that wasn't completely gutted, being unable to use off-meta builds effectively.

I mean, they make hybrid champs with AD/AP ratios, then when someone finds a viable off-meta build path for that champion, or find a way to play them in a different role, they completely gut that off-meta style and even further, sometimes completely rework that champion specifically in one role.

I remember when Riot used to design champions loosely; that is, they would come up with a champion that wasn't tied specifically to a particular role, but instead had the tools for the intended role.

I.e. thresh used to be playable top or mid AP.

Now you have champions like bard, braum, etc whose entire kit revolves around their specific role; making it almost impossible to even attempt to use them in a different lane or with a different build.

RalanrMay 12, 20172 votes

Bruiser Yasuo can still work.

As can juggernaut Sion.

ChønklordMay 12, 20171 votes

Sion is a juggernaut. He's literally the definition of juggernaut.

And Yasuo needs rebalancing overall.

There are healthy ways to have viable off-meta champion roles/builds/playstyles, and then there are unhealthy ways.

Yasuo on his base kit has always been overtuned even after the multiple nerf bats to him.

Sion is pretty balanced I'll admit, he's one of the few that can do different things. But he's still pretty bad top lane where he was originally made for.

Sion jungle was super OP for a while and Riot purposefully crushed any chance of jungle Sion.

Now he's basically a support.

(I have a sneaking suspicion Riot is trying to turn every champ into a support, so that way they can justify autofill. Secret mastermind conspiracy!?!)

RalanrMay 12, 20172 votes

Sion is a tank. He has too much CC to actually be a juggernaut and has been doing fine in top lane before the tank update item changes.

I'm sure there are healthy ways for build diversity, but the problem is that when people ask for build diversity they usually aren't thinking about it being healthy, just playable.

BrascusMay 12, 20171 votes

His ult makes him pretty tanky, hence why I think of him as a tank.

If you don't die fast in a team fight, I think you're tank like, but so many 'tanks' don't last very long in team fights.

RalanrMay 12, 20171 votes

Don't get me wrong, Alistar is a tank, but he's not what tanks should be because of how little counterplay he has.

Tanking is no longer about surviving the longest. It's about getting attention.

BrascusMay 12, 20171 votes

I think the whole thread was derailed by miconstruing that this was about balance. Counterplay has nothing to do with makes a champion fill a role.

RalanrMay 12, 20171 votes

I never said it did. Alistar is a tank, I just don't think he's a healthy designed one.

BrascusMay 12, 20171 votes

Then why is everyone talking about counterplay? What you said is true, the sky is also blue how is that relevant?

EndlessSorcererMay 12, 20171 votes

Alistar item 3078 item 3087

Alistar top would build this at one point during S4 (?).

It was a nightmare.

dominusxMay 12, 20171 votes

No counterplay to any part of alistars kit unless you have a blink or a really strong instant dash ( Lucian )

Leona is meh she isnt abad champ and has counterplay she is a decent tank but can feel fustrating when she flash Q E R and perma lock you.

Sion isnt a juggernoot he doesnt have enough dmg to be that even if you build him jugg build. Instead as a tank he makes up with cc.

Tank: Durable tons of cc. Jugg: Durable tons of dmg.

RalanrMay 12, 20172 votes

Hey! Galio technically also fulfills those requirements.

dominusxMay 12, 20171 votes

galio is also a great rework and above all he is FUN AS FUCK.

RalanrMay 12, 20171 votes

He really is.

Stonewall008 said it best, "Big dick ultimate."

dominusxMay 12, 20171 votes

sw008 <3 i fucking love him was watching his stream the other day. His voice just makes me happy. Even tho he had dropped a lot in terms of ranking he is still on my top 5 list of players since beta.

AgeOfTheMageMay 12, 20171 votes

i feel like these champs: Braum Nautilus Malphite Rammus Garen Leona Sion Volibear are examples of tanks.

BrascusMay 12, 20171 votes

If garen builds tank items he's quite tanky, but his lack of utility almost makes it pointless, he's very easy to ignore if your team can kite.

Teridax68May 12, 20174 votes

I think, in an ideal world, tanks should distinguish themselves by actively trying to redirect damage towards themselves, whether it's by going out of their way to absorb damage for their allies, locking an enemy target down so hard they're effectively taken out of the fight until the tank is taken out, or applying team-wide disruption for as long as they stand. Their primary strengths should be their durability and their crowd control, and while some tanks may have damage, damage should not be something most tanks should have in any significant amount.

Unfortunately, the direction taken during and around the tank updates seems to have been to make them essentially divers with more crowd control, usually a team initiation ult, and (sometimes) less damage. The Big 3 are currently all in varying states of power, but in the end it's going to be difficult to dissociate them from fighters, because all of these tanks are going to be quite content playing exactly like bruisers whenever they can. The fundamental difference between being a tank and a fighter should be that the tank is durable because they want to take damage, whereas fighters are durable because they inevitably will take damage, and I don't think that was a difference that was clearly established with this roster update.

BrascusMay 12, 20172 votes

I couldn't agree more! This is exactly what I couldn't articulate, some people think is thread is about balance instead of purpose.

Teridax68May 13, 20172 votes

That's unfortunately all too common a mistake on Boards. I've seen many a discussion get completely sidetracked because someone could not differentiate between balance or design: when someone says a champion is "good" or "trash", they're typically referring to their power level and state in the meta, and when a champion hits that special spot where they're neither too strong nor too weak, nor exceptionally prominent, it's difficult for most players to care about any requests to change them, even if they have design problems, because they think their play/win stats are the only things that matter. On the topic of tanks, it's often difficult to move the subject of conversation beyond their skewed balance, because pointing out ~40% win rates is easier than giving a detailed analysis of where the updated kits fell short.

What upsets me especially about this is that these communication issues end up having serious long-term consequences, and make a ton of noise about what is ultimately just a very short-term issue: in just about a month, maybe two, Riot's going to pull whichever levers they have to in order to bring tanks in line, whether it's by buffing those affected by the Sunfire Cape nerfs or nerfing outliers like Sejuani. These champions' play/win stats will eventually move towards normal levels once players gets used to them, but their design will stay the same, possibly for years to come.

What's worse is that this is supposed to be a keynote update for tanks as a class, or at least vanguards (which I think should be split into two more subclasses, but that's a topic for another discussion), so if the direction picked here is wrong (and I think it is), it could mess up tank design for many more seasons before Riot realizes their mistake and painstakingly undoes the work they began here. I don't particularly care about whether Sejuani is OP or UP at the moment, that can easily change very quickly, but I can predict that, once she falls in line, her design and power allocation issues are going to make her difficult to balance properly and not all that fun to play, and that's going to gall her until she receives a full VGU. The same can be said for many other tanks, whose nukes are going to either feel weak or extraneous as balance shifts, and that's what I think should be the focus of the update's feedback, not just balance complaints that Riot can easily verify on their own.

SaevumMay 12, 20171 votes

During the peel-engage, yes, aggro all the way.

They also are supposed to have high base damage stats, reduced damage scaling.

Even when behind, they are supposed to absorb the enemies main damage bursts. Cause if the enemy deny of doing so, the base damage of a tank jumping on top of your ADC/APC is supposed deal enough consistent damage to cripple their team advantage over your ADC/APC. Basically.

Meep ManMay 12, 20171 votes

Tanks purpose are to provide their team with absolute shit tons of crowd control, all packed onto a more durable than average body. The durability can range drastically in some cases, from the squishiest of the Tanks (such as Jarvan who arguably isn't even a Tank) to Rammus and Alistar. Tanks are mainly only durable due to their lack of decent damage, so that they aren't just CC sticks and can draw attention to themselves. As a Tank, dying is not necessarily a bad thing if all of the DPS cannons on your team survive. If the enemy team is dead or retreating and your team suffered little casualities (or simply survived), you did your job well.

An easy way to imagine a team is like this. Say all of your team is at the bottom of a pit and the enemy team is a shit ton of water flowig into the pit. Your Tank is the one making sure as little water reaches your team, your Support is the one giving CPR to everyone drowning, and the rest of your team are the ones giving you guys a way out of the pit.