This Mana regen Nerf is really pissing me off

Moulin Rouge·Dec 22, 2014·60 votes·6,125 views

Now a days, as a mage you cannot stay in lane with an oppenent that can sustain your harass. Even with an Athenes or Morello because trying to fight someone with sustain ends up sending you oom far too often.

Mana regen for mana intensive champions is ridiculous now and totally messes them up when it comes to harass. For example, as Orianna, my combo's take A LOT of mana. Now that mana regen is awful, I cannot be the utility mage that I'd like to be. Before, I could do my burst rotation and then have mana afterwards to help the team out with speed ups and shields. Now a days, it's one or the other. I cannot fling my ball around to everyone within a typical rotation without going oom. Meanwhile, the resourceless ones are just spamming their spells like it's nothing...because they can.

It's never been about baddies just flinging spells everywhere. It's always been about using your champion to it's fullest potential. The regen nerf really hurt utility mages with spammy mid-high cost spells.

I know I'll get my downvotes from Bruiser mains and anti-AP champion/itemization circlejerkers. But I've made my case. Peace.

P.S. Keep in mind, this isn't only about Orianna. I'm talking about mages in general.

88 Comments

AbyssphereDec 23, 201447 votes

I think if you spend ~4800 gold on mana items then you deserve to not have to worry about your resources. Zed, Yasuo, Akali and Katarina don't have to spend a dime to be able to spam all day so why do people get so up in arms about mages being able to spam? If I spend enough gold to buy two mana items when you're freely building pure damage then yes, I deserve to be able to spam.

Moulin RougeDec 23, 20146 votes

{quoted}

I think if you spend ~4800 gold on mana items then you deserve to not have to worry about your resources. Zed, Yasuo, Akali and Katarina don't have to spend a dime to be able to spam all day so why do people get so up in arms about mages being able to spam? If I spend enough gold to buy two mana items when you're freely building pure damage then yes, I deserve to be able to spam.

Another fair point. People don't realize how much early game power you sacrifice to become somewhat mana efficient. At this present, even with mana items, you're still not mana efficient unless you're always getting blue.

Sire HippingtonDec 24, 20141 votes

well, that somewhat gets balanced out by manauseing champs in general haveing better basevalues on their skills, and more range. If i go for a grail on Anivia and you get a big and a small rod on kata, you will have 60 ap more than me, and still deal less damag(asuming a 4sec trade and ~30ap from runes/masteries at lvl 9, aniva deals 1560 damage in that time while Kata does 1500 with a full ult) The main point is more the time till that mana item is finished, in which you will get outsustained in lane by most no-mana champions.

DUDE BRODec 23, 20145 votes

Many don't realize, but mana/energy/resourceless exists for a very specific reason. Below I'll explain the design of each type and hopefully you should understand why they don't want infinite mana.

Mana Champions are designed to be really good sustained fighters, do well in teamfights, and be able to last longer before being oom. Ex. Lv 12 Orianna can do huge AOE damage, and keep sending her ball around in a team fight for 15 seconds before going oom. She is weak when going oom.

Energy Champions are designed to have huge burst potential, but then go oom very quickly, forcing them to pause in between skirmishes to regain energy. Ex. Zed/Lee Sin/Shen can do their full combo to a target in the middle of a teamfight, but then they will instantly be out of energy and unable to properly spam until 3-5 seconds for energy return. After that, they can do their combo but must immediately wait again. They are weak after using a combo.

Resourceless Champions usually have much higher risk in their playstyle, and so they can't offord to be building mana items. Ex. Katarina is melee, and so her only ranged harass is through her abilities. Her ult is also a very easily interruptable melee channel. She has resets to offset her very dangerous melee playstyle. Rumble/Morde/Garen, other very melee/immobile champions also must focus on other items to offset their low range. They are weak at all times in specific ways.

So you can see these champions are designed differently from the start. If Orianna suddenly had infinite mana, then she would not only be able to have the same burst as energy champions, but would have absolutely no downtime at all.

Though going oom is part of the game, I do agree the chalice nerf went a bit too far.

Sozan5Dec 23, 201415 votes

I actually like that the mana champions run out of mana now - makes you take a choice - either you want full power and have mana problems or sacrifice some power for mana sustain.

But the problem is with energy and resourceless champions, since they don't. Really, all those Zeds, Akalis, Katarinas, Rivens etc. need some real resource gating.

BlackRavenDec 23, 201414 votes

ik, now you cant spam all your skills and still have full mana. goddamn riot what were they thinking in actually making it so ap mana costly champs actually run out of mana? The fuck riot? peace.

DiostukosDec 23, 201411 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Lee Sin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=caRVR900,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2014-12-23T00:52:10.694+0000)

ik, now you cant spam all your skills and still have full mana. goddamn riot what were they thinking in actually making it so ap mana costly champs actually run out of mana? The fuck riot? peace.

Says the Lee Sin :^)

It really affects mid lane mages because Zed is really popular right now. He's an energy champion and very safe, so he can stay farming under tower as long as he pleases.

Moulin RougeDec 23, 20148 votes

{quoted}

Says the Lee Sin :^)

It really affects mid lane mages because Zed is really popular right now. He's an energy champion and very safe, so he can stay farming under tower as long as he pleases.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Zed, Yasuo, etc can all outlast your harass. Making it difficult to lane against manaless champions.

WolfBVDec 23, 20146 votes

And Yasuo can outright block your harass.

Moulin RougeDec 23, 20144 votes

{quoted}

And Yasuo can outright block your harass.

He can block it, absorb it or straight out dodge it. He's always been a head ache to lane against when you're running on limited mana.

Cenobite AzazielDec 24, 20141 votes

{quoted}

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Zed, Yasuo, etc can all outlast your harass. Making it difficult to lane against manaless champions.

oriana's autos hit like a truck. You can harass and out trade these champs in lane. You are ranged, have insane burst/poke and you are complaining about mana? If you want a fair game, make a item before watmogthat gives insane hp regen for 1k.

Moulin RougeDec 24, 20142 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cenobite Azaziel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=caRVR900,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2014-12-24T16:03:16.016+0000)

oriana's autos hit like a truck. You can harass and out trade these champs in lane. You are ranged, have insane burst/poke and you are complaining about mana? If you want a fair game, make a item before watmogthat gives insane hp regen for 1k.

For the last time. This isn't just about Orianna! It's about all mages!!! When are you Orianna haters going to get it through your heads?

Cenobite AzazielDec 24, 20141 votes

{quoted}

For the last time. This isn't just about Orianna! It's about all mages!!! When are you Orianna haters going to get it through your heads?

Ziggs? Similar autos and better poke. Ahri? Ranged poke. I can't think of an ap mage that can't harras or isn't ranged for the exception fo fizz and kass ( that hurts like hell too =])

Leti the YetiDec 23, 20143 votes

{quoted}

Says the Lee Sin :^)

It really affects mid lane mages because Zed is really popular right now. He's an energy champion and very safe, so he can stay farming under tower as long as he pleases.

maybe the issue is energy champs and not the mana regen dude has a point, cant spam skills while maintaining full mp anymore? wow thats a real shame energy is morbidly efficient

I've laned with Akali.. and Zed and Kennen and others and they be like throwing shit at me endlessly and their energy never goes down

WARLAG0Dec 23, 201412 votes

Try being Galio, when you have high mana costs, low mana regen AND you are melee. Yet I deal with it :/ there's no other option for me.

Moulin RougeDec 23, 20144 votes

{quoted}

Try being Galio, when you have high mana costs, low mana regen AND you are melee. Yet I deal with it :/ there's no other option for me.

Galio also has sustain and a natural tank towards AP mages. Regardless, Galio has his own problems. Hence why no one but you, play him.

WARLAG0Dec 23, 20149 votes

Orianna has an HP shield and ranged autoattacks that get stronger upon hitting the same enemy for safer cs. I thought we were talking about mana, not abilities? I see your point because I have as well said that mana regen got knocked down hard, my point is, I think its even more harsh for others, yet it is manageable.

Moulin RougeDec 23, 20146 votes

{quoted}

Orianna has an HP shield and ranged autoattacks that get stronger upon hitting the same enemy for safer cs. I thought we were talking about mana, not abilities? I see your point because I have as well said that mana regen got knocked down hard, my point is, I think its even more harsh for others, yet it is manageable.

The point was that for mages like Orianna, you're going to blow a lot of mana for just one rotation. When you're against mana-less champions, it becomes almost impossible to retaliate as hard as the manaless champions can when they want to harass you.

As an Orianna against manaless champions, I have resorted to max'ing Q (or E if they're hard) since I cannot use W anymore without blowing out my mana bar. Meanwhile they're just having the time of their lives because they've probably bought an HP sustain item and can now ignore my harass unless I do Q-W which also chunks out my mana bar. They'll just wait until I've gone oom and either approach me or wait till "b".

This isn't just Orianna though. It's all mages. The mana regen nerf really hurt mages that aren't Veigar and now that energy mids are making a return, I fear the meta will start picking off mage viability. The day that happens, is the day I quit LoL forever.

Ariel the CruelDec 23, 20143 votes

This isn't just Orianna though. It's all mages.

Veigar has mana regen in his kit. Kassadin has mana return in his kit. Karthus has mana return in his kit. Lissandra gets a free spell every 18 seconds (or less) and has the lowest mana regen of all champs. In addition to being on the low end for base mana (compared to other mages).

EDIT: Small correction: she's tied with Darius at lvl 18 with 12.5 regen.

That said. Mages were never meant to have free reign on their spells, which is basically what chalice used to to. Mana is intended as a power gate. The problem is, manaless champs were balanced around mana champs not being properly gated. They failed to address the other half of the equation, which is why we're starting to see this.

EDIT: I'm tempted to create a mana efficiency table for the champs. Would anyone be interested in this, or know if it's already been done?

WolfBVDec 23, 20141 votes

Don't forget Xerath

FantasySniperDec 23, 20147 votes

I haven't really noticed a difference, and I play AP supports pretty often.

Champs who don't have to worry about mana have always been easier to pull off, haven't they?

Moulin RougeDec 23, 20145 votes

{quoted}

I haven't really noticed a difference, and I play AP supports pretty often.

Champs who don't have to worry about mana have always been easier to pull off, haven't they?

That's because you rarely have to solo lane against an Assassin who could possibly kill you if you don't properly CC or protect yourself. As someone who regularly goes mid, you have to deal with mana-less champions who take your harass too easily. Before the nerfs, it was ok. I built my mana item but I could still use guerilla tactics to push them outta lane without over committing. Now a days, using guerilla tactics just runs you oom at one eventually.

FantasySniperDec 23, 20147 votes

And when you have to manage your mana resource for not one, but two enemies and a teammate? Running OoM as a support is usually a death sentence for either you or your partner.

Moulin RougeDec 23, 20145 votes

{quoted}

And when you have to manage your mana resource for not one, but two enemies and a teammate? Running OoM as a support is usually a death sentence for either you or your partner.

I'm not trying to downplay the mana thing right now. Every AP whether they are carries or supports are hurting right now. Trust me. It's as much as a death sentence for AP supports as it is for an AP carry.

When an AP carry goes OOM against a manaless carry one of 3 things happen:

1)The enemy engages and the AP dies 1a)The enemy engages and you blow flash 2)You (b) and your tower takes hits 3)You farm at tower and try your hardest not to lose CS (which you most certainly will)

There's no inbetween unless you've been supplied blue. And these days junglers are really stingy about their blue buffs. ( I don't jungle so I'm not sure as to why this is these days)



After a certain amount of time, returning back to refill your mana becomes detrimental and will ensure that they take your tower because you went OOM. A mid lane tower is a huge mega blow to success.

FantasySniperDec 23, 20147 votes

{quoted}

There's no inbetween unless you've been supplied blue. And these days junglers are really stingy about their blue buffs. ( I don't jungle so I'm not sure as to why this is these days)

A jungler not giving up blu means 1 of 3 things:

You weren't around to take it. It is the most common reason, as they aren't going to wait any longer than 10 seconds while leaving themselves and their buff vulnerable. It's a waste of time, health, xp, and gold to just let it sit there while you're too greedy for CS to come and get it.
They get more use out of it. Either you're going to end up losing it, don't have the kit to take advantage of it, or they are dependant on it for safe farming and ganks. With the new jungle, it's also more difficult to survive without it.
They're an ass.

You could always push out the lane before you run out of mana, and then proceed to back while they're trying to counter-push. It's also what should commonly be done against most manaless mids, as their wave clear is usually inferior to yours, and if they use their CDs on the creeps, they won't be able to engage on you while you back away.

Wînter FoxDec 23, 20146 votes

This is exactly why Zed, Akali, Katarina, and Yasuo are banned constantly.

Leblancs BoobDec 23, 20146 votes

The meta already favored assassins like Zed, Fizz, Akali, Kat who are manaless or don't ever build mana regen over the likes of mages. Now mages can't even compete

WolfBVDec 23, 20143 votes

Wait, Fizz doesn't use mana/need regen?

Leblancs BoobDec 24, 20144 votes

He doesn't build regen.. that was the whole point of my post

ImHerVoiceDec 23, 20145 votes

now you know how nidalee nerfs feel or leblanc nerfs. you have to ult as leblanc just to clear a wave.

OverpoweredSoapDec 23, 20145 votes

{quoted}

now you know how nidalee nerfs feel or leblanc nerfs. you have to ult as leblanc just to clear a wave.

Yeah.

That's sort of suppose to be her weakness. Meh waveclear without her ult.

Even then her ult has a rather short cooldown.

VettahnDec 23, 20144 votes

the way i see this is that it's just another kennen microbuff

metaworldpeace10Dec 23, 20143 votes

What? Orianna as a utility mage? No, she explodes teams. As for mana, it might need a slight buff, but I'd rather not see the "infinite wave clear" meta with Xerath/Orianna/Ziggs/Syndra meta. I do think part of the problem though is the Zed/Akali/Katarina meta, they can either dodge harass or out-sustain the poke far too well.

ElphrihaimDec 24, 20143 votes

I think the problem exists not because Mana Regen was nerfed, but because non-mana champions were balanced around the slightly-broken amount of Mana Regen that was available.

Look at Shen/Kennen/Akali and compare their Energy costs and returns with Zed's.

They all have it worse. Akali circumvents running out of energy because she can afford to wait for a moment if her enemies run, and if they stay she has bonus Spell Vamp and On-Hit Magic Damage to keep her a threat.

Kennen has difficulty running out of energy, but if he tries to clear a wave (EW) he finds himself close to drained and needs to stop harassing for a bit to recharge because of how low his energy return is.

Shen couldn't even go through a whole rotation without hitting two enemies with his Taunt, and would instead have to wait a moment. Now, he can actually unload everything he has, but he can barely cast after that, and so must constantly choose between damage and a heal over time or a shield.

Zed's energy return is a lot easier to get (hit enemies multiple times via W/R) and his energy costs are a bit lower. This gives him the ability to actually go through two full rotations (RWEQEQ) before he runs out of energy, and it also makes him able to build cooldown reduction

Kowe The EwokDec 24, 20143 votes

One Zed to rule 'em all. Infinite ressource sustain and a build path which maximizes damage by building sustain item 3153 Combine it with huge AoE waveclear so you push your opponent into oblivion when they have to b.

FlemmanDec 23, 20142 votes

it's not really a problem in orianna case as she was to good everywhere and in every situation, a clear "weakness" can help to balance the champ.

It's more of a problem for champion who already have big weakness (like no mobility/utility), adding mana issue put them a little bit behind

Moulin RougeDec 23, 20143 votes

{quoted}

it's not really a problem in orianna case as she was to good everywhere and in every situation, a clear "weakness" can help to balance the champ.

It's more of a problem for champion who already have big weakness (like no mobility/utility), adding mana issue put them a little bit behind

It's not just about Orianna for the last time people. I was just using her as an example of the woes of a mid-lane mage. Perhaps I should have used Anivia instead...

FlemmanDec 23, 20142 votes

yeah, maybe it will best to to edit the main post with anivia exemple instead because, as orianna is kind of the "lee sin of the mid lane", it's hard to see her running oom like a real problem :p

As I said after, other champ suffer more from that, using them will be more effective for your main statement (the one poepele see when they open the thread ^^)

AmelieDec 23, 20142 votes

I love my AP mids, but I do not mind this change at all. The regen from Athene's (or even chalice) was always so irritating because it negated mana costs for high-harass champions. I'm glad that Orianna, Ziggs, Xerath, etc are a bit more gated now.

I've changed my playstyle to incorporate a Tear or RoA into my builds to make up for it. I think that was the idea all along, or at least it makes sense to me. You want mana to spam endlessly? Increase your mana pool. You don't just get to buy one mana regen item and forget that you even have a mana resource.

I like that we have to decide carefully how to use our mana, even against resourceless/energy champions.

AreDec 23, 20144 votes

{quoted}

I love my AP mids, but I do not mind this change at all. The regen from Athene's (or even chalice) was always so irritating because it negated mana costs for high-harass champions. I'm glad that Orianna, Ziggs, Xerath, etc are a bit more gated now.

I've changed my playstyle to incorporate a Tear or RoA into my builds to make up for it. I think that was the idea all along, or at least it makes sense to me. You want mana to spam endlessly? Increase your mana pool. You don't just get to buy one mana regen item and forget that you even have a mana resource.

I like that we have to decide carefully how to use our mana, even against resourceless/energy champions.

It's not as evident as before, but energy is better early game while mana is better late game. Energy is constantly over exaggerated on how spammable it is. It needs to be managed otherwise you'll run out of energy. The few seconds it takes to regen enough energy for an ability can be crucial.

In team fights, you'd find yourself out of energy, but mana champions never seemed to be OOM with chalice/athenes.

I never bought Athenes, but some champions like Anivia Zilean could use a buff. Orianna needs a slight mana buff. Nothing too big.

CinderDragon77Dec 23, 20142 votes

{quoted}

It's not as evident as before, but energy is better early game while mana is better late game. Energy is constantly over exaggerated on how spammable it is. It needs to be managed otherwise you'll run out of energy. The few seconds it takes to regen enough energy for an ability can be crucial.

In team fights, you'd find yourself out of energy, but mana champions never seemed to be OOM with chalice/athenes.

I never bought Athenes, but some champions like could use a buff. needs a slight mana buff. Nothing too big.

Nidalee and Lulu could definitely use some help in the buff department too, especially Nidalee seeing as to how her base ad for last hitting is terrible along with her small mana pool and spells that jump in cost every rank. She may just need more tuning done seeing as to how she's pretty much just some second-rate assassin that has all of her power shoved into something that can only reliably proc from hitting a slow skill-shot that chunks out your mana pool, and even then the damage is still nothing to write home about, couple that with a lack of ranged wave-clear/cc and you've got Nidalee.

Lulu could use some mana cost buffs and maybe give her some defensive power back with all the offensive that was taken away from her, i.e. give her defensive shield and ult some buffs, not too sure about any non-mana related buffs though because nobody really wants her dominating top-lane again.

Ridley PrimeDec 24, 20142 votes

You could always make mana regen items REAL nice... like add some sweet new passives or actives. Maybe even boost the other stats they give. That way you're not sacrificing as much in terms of your build on mana sustain, or bring something more unique to the party, while resourceless champs just need to worry about AD/AP/penetration/CDR.

Maybe add like some kind of penetration passive based on your mana or boost the AP each mana regen item gives.

VDc0zCqe0wDec 23, 20141 votes

the mana rework also made AP supports like Annie, Zyra, Morgana, Karma etc weaker in early game, since they will run out of mana way faster, and you don't often have the gold to buy a mikael's that early on, while they buffed Nami, Janna, Sona, Soraka massively, since they got huge base mana regen and a low per level mana regen, but you couldn't care less because you need EARLY mana as a support, since you will buy mikael's midgame anyways

thank god there are no manaless supports

CoolKnightSTDec 23, 20141 votes

For poke supports just go item 3092 item 3165 that should give you enouge mana regen in the early game.

VDc0zCqe0wDec 23, 20142 votes

i said early game, not 2200 gold item lol

the spellthief (tier 1) is not enough

CoolKnightSTDec 23, 20141 votes

3x Mreg Seals or 3x Mreg Glyphs

VDc0zCqe0wDec 23, 20141 votes

yeah you can play over it with runes, but still, you lost 3 glyphs or seals that you could have used for something else (mres or AP or mpen for example), while before the changes mana regen on seals/glyphs were not needed at all

CoolKnightSTDec 24, 20141 votes

Honnestly, these runes where pretty strong even before the mana regen nerfs. A lot of pro players used 3 mreg seals on Morgana cdr rune page. While aggressive supports like Thresh Leona replaced 3 glyphs for them. Their where even some players that used the Nami runepage on Thresh tank build.

GunpointDec 23, 20141 votes

Riot asks, why are you not playing Zed instead of Orianna?

Moulin RougeDec 23, 20146 votes

{quoted}

Riot asks, why are you not playing Zed instead of Orianna?

And I'll tell Riot it's because I do not like Assassins and the only assassin I can stomach is Ahri. (who I don't even play as an assassin, I play her as a mage with assassin tendencies)