Whelp, Gnar is crowding out the top lane champion pool.
#BetterNerfSona
he's my second pick top and I feel bad about it :(
Welp
is wrecking mid lane
#BetterNerfSona
Whelp, Gnar is crowding out the top lane champion pool.
#BetterNerfSona
learn to play against him... And he is getting a nerf anyways.
Gnar getting a nerf you say? Well, we all know what that means.
#BetterNerfSona
he is? DAMN IT, I JUST got used to his W dealing ap damage :(
Supports are like that shy "problem kid" in the background who studies and doodles by herself instead of constantly drinking and partying.
Everything is "wrong" with them if they are not flashy.
Lee sin keeps dominating the ju ngle... #BetterNerfSona
Zed pick/ban status
God dammit Sona, what the hell is your problem?
Lee Sin is still dominating jungle after 3 seasons? Gnar is a top lane powerhouse? Irelia is semi-playable? Olaf is still Olaf?
Better nerf Sona
Yes she is the new Irelia.
#betternerfsona
I think the delusion that she didn't need nerfs is beginning to exceed Irelia but I wasn't around back then so I wouldn't know.
I wasn't around when they were doing the Irelia nerfs, but even so, these nerfs are kind of weird. I mean, what if they took a completely fair champion (I don't know, Vladimir?) that no one thought was toxic for gameplay, and then gave him/her a rework/gameplay update that claimed to fix some of the problems that were there earlier, and the champion was good after the rework for some people, and wasn't really a problem because, of course, champions become way better if they're fed.
Now let's nerf that champion who was in a good spot after the gameplay update.
Now what would that champion be like after changes like ratio scaling, base stats, base defenses, resources, CDs, etc?
Someone like Sona, who gains power after 6, who doesn't really have anything for 1v1 defense or power, why would there be nerfs in place anyway? Sona isn't a fighter. She isn't a tank with oodles of CC. She definitely isn't an assassin. She's just a support/mage. Supports don't really do that much on terms of damage, but there are those moments when the full combo of spells actually means something. In Sona's case, her passive is where her damage comes from. Sona should've been given more thought as to what she was: A Support who gave off auras that gave buffs as long as the auras were active, and some initial effects when the auras started. I'm not too pissed about the gameplay update she received, at least initially. But the constant nerfs with no info to back it up is consistently annoying. Riot should've stated on the PBE that the nerfs to Sona were extremely tentative, and wanted to see how they worked out. The PBE doesn't have a large player base, but then again, I'm not sure what rank the players who come from live are, so you might have diamond people being mixed in with silver or gold players, or even unranked people.
I'll play devil's advocate (once again...)
To begin with, Sona's nerfs aren't that big, 5 MS, FIVE, geez... Saying RIP SONA or better nerf Sona is such an overreaction that makes me think people on these forums are barely 12 years old.
With that out of the way, lets analyze most common points these overreactions base on:
-She can't 1v1: well... what support can? not only that but given the chance, out of ALL supports, Sona is the one who CAN 1v1 -.- simple as this, if the enemy ADC has low health, who can one shot him? Soraka? Nami? Braum? Thresh? not even Karma can, Sona CAN. I bet my arm that while playing Sona you've KS'd more than release Darius! UNINTENTIONALLY.
-She's squishy like a minion: I agree, she is, but why? well, as we all know there are 3 types of supports (Real supports, leaving mages out), healers, shield and peelers. Karma has a shield in order to reduce harass, same as Janna and Lulu, Soraka, Taric and Nami reduce harass by healing, Leona and Braum peel their adc... Sona does it ALL, she heals, shields and peels, with 2 skills, why on top of it all should she be tanky?
-She can't teamfight: Really? giving damage to everyone near, a shield every 10, haste every 12 and an AoE Stun sounds like a great teamfighter to me, you can't be in the front (YOU SHOULDN'T BE IN THE FRONT ANYWAY) of course but if you stay back and protect your adc you're a freaking support machine.
-She has to be with someone all the time: When did I start playing Street fighter? O.o of course you can't be alone, this is LEAGUE OF LEGENDS a TEAM game, you SHOULDN'T overextend with any champion. Each champion has an extension range, somewhere you can move freely and where you can escape taking in account your movement skills and your opponent's, for example: Tristana has a bigger extension range than say Ashe. For supports this is true as well, Soraka has a very small extension range, barely beyond her AA range, Karma's on the other hand is HUGE thanks to her haste/slow/snare, Nami's is situational but can be very big if you hit your bubble, Janna's is huge as well, Taric's is tiny, Sona's is medium because of your haste which brings me to my last point.
-Why nerf Sona's movement speed out of all: by removing 5 MS, Sona's efective extension range becomes shorter by like 5% ._. you'll need to be a biiiit more careful but it's not like you don't have almost 20% MS buff at lvl 1 song of celerity (with 100AP). In reality this nerf is aimed at how easy it is to poke with Sona, which people does by activating song of celerity anyway -.- so all in all the change is gonna be barely noticeable but deserved since being a rocket at lvl 3 is pretty stupid.
I'm glad. However, the increased movement speed is with 100 AP. Not the easiest if you're more worried about surviving longer. And she isn't a Mage. People aren't saying that the support role is the meta for anyone playing Sona, so Sona doesn't even get that much gold anyway. The reason she needs to be built tanky, is because of how her spells require her to get closer to everyone in order to make the most use out of them. Unless there is a chance that the Sona gets fed, by pure chance. And no, I have not unintentionally stolen kills as Sona. I have as Janna, Lulu, Nami, and as Annie. More Nami than the other supports, because her wave bounces past my ADC and got the kill. By the way... did you see the nerfs before the 5 MS?
I did yes, 10% less damage on power chord.
I think you guys are too focused on surviving as Sona ._. I go full AP, really, even as support after building my gold item (sometimes coin, sometimes spellthief) and sightstone I buy a Sheen immediately, yes I skip boots for a sheen if I need to because that's Sona's strength right now she IS a glass cannon support, not to mention that her heals scale with AP as well, why would I need armor or magic resist if I can heal lots with enough AP?
If they jump you and waste CC or damage on you then your job is done, more importantly, if they jump at you and you're in the back then they're doomed, why is it so important for you to survive? as long as you stun them and use all your skills once, ONCE, is enough.
Also, pack Exhaust and use W power chord when they jump at you, they'll have a hard time trying to kill you. More importantly STAY IN THE BACK, use E to go in and out as necessary but never too far in.
I just read the other replies you had for Emoto, and there is reason in what you're saying. I played Sona for quite a while, but then again, I played her before and after the gameplay update, and I also haven't played as Sona or even LoL in over a month, so I probably forgot what she is like powerwise, and I am just reading the numbers on her balance changes. So, yes, glass cannon support, but I sometimes prefer some more oomph behind the offensive spells, or just have more offense, if I were to go glass cannon, but that's just me.
if the enemy ADC has low health, who can one shot him? Soraka? Nami? Braum? Thresh? not even Karma can
All of those supports have cc to lock the adc down, and if they do, they can kill an early game adc.
Soraka can use Equinox, doing damage once it's casted, and once it locks the enemy. throwing an additional perfect Q, aa, and the adc is probably dead.
Nami can throw her Q, wich additionaly stuns the adc, can use her W to poke the adc, and additionally cast her E, working like an Sona e powerchord.
Well.. Braum has not alot damage by himself, but he can locks down the adc if he triggers his stun and do extra magic damage too.
Let's. Not. Talk. About. Thresh.
Karma is also quite a strong mage support, who has a on click snare (if the tether does not break) and her Q. let's not forget her empowered Q, wich does damage on hit and after a short delay.
All those supports can kill the adc, just because Sonas Powerchord have no counterplay for now, it's considered as op? mostly at early game, because she's right now a poke support?
well, as we all know there are 3 types of supports (Real supports, leaving mages out), healers, shield and peelers.
Let's think about it.. Sona has no reliable cc pre 6, like Braum, Leona, Thresh and the most Peel supports. Her Shield is way too hard to utilize for now, because it's 1.5 seconds long, most other supports shield last about 5 ~ 7 seconds. So Sona is left with her heal. But wait, her Heal is extremly weak, even if she heals two targets, and you count taric as healer, who does also heal himself and an ally. So Let me ask you. What kind of Support is Sona, if she can't peel, heal, and shield?
Really? giving damage to everyone near, a shield every 10, haste every 12 and an AoE Stun sounds like a great teamfighter to me, you can't be in the front (YOU SHOULDN'T BE IN THE FRONT ANYWAY) of course but if you stay back and protect your adc you're a freaking support machine.
How many champions can actually utilize the on hit damage? Mages can't at all, tanks can neither, bruisers could, and of course, the adc would benifit the most out of it. Her ultimate is the only ability, that remained unchanged after the rework, wich explains pretty much why it's the strongest ability right now in her kit, but positioning is quite important for Sona.
About the Sona has to be always with an ally part; so, lets say your team needs wards, and you as squishiest support go in your jungle and ward around. if you get caught by an enemy there, YOU'LL be dead. No exception
And about the Sonas movement speed; Phreak did state by himself, why Zyra has such a low movement speed. And he compared her with Malzahar, who is as Sona, a quite immobile champion, with no reliable cc pre-6, thinking it's fair for him having such high movement speed as mage. But then I'm wondering, why does Sona recieve one, if she can't peel by herself, except at lvl 6 with her ult, having a much higher cooldown and mana cost? We just don't know.
All those supports can kill the adc, just because Sonas Powerchord have no counterplay for now, it's considered as op? mostly at early game, because she's right now a poke support?
-yes
Let's think about it.. Sona has no reliable cc pre 6
Reliable perhaps not, but her slow is quite potent, though, everyone seems to be in love with Q power chord so...
What kind of Support is Sona, if she can't peel, heal, and shield?
Quite the opposite, she can do it ALL, hence, why she should be mediocre at all of them, she's the jack of all trades of support and if you wanna see her real power you gotta know how to use it ALL, not just button mashing.
How many champions can actually utilize the on hit damage?
All, mages do have autoattacks that they use in between skills, orbwalking is a must in ALL roles, not just ADC.
About the Sona has to be always with an ally part; so, lets say your team needs wards, and you as squishiest support go in your jungle and ward around. if you get caught by an enemy there, YOU'LL be dead. No exception
Same is true for almost every support, more importantly the ones who can ward safely are mostly supports with haste, Sona has a haste that works wonders, now if you like playing chase the frog in the jungle while the rest of the game is going forward I have bad news for you. Honestly you can ward effectively as Sona, who says otherwise needs to really check the way they're playing, now if there's no enemy in sight and you just so happen to remember you have sightstone and decide to ward dragon at 40 minutes alone... really? come on.
compared her with Malzahar, who is as Sona, a quite immobile champion
Sona is NOT an immobile champion, more specifically, she doesn't even need to move to cast her skills and thanks to Song of celerity low cost and high uptime she has an effective movement speed relative to the likes of Janna, if you can't click to move that doesn't mean Sona is immobile ._.
I'm sorry if I sound rude, it is not my intention but people against Sona's nerfs need to be a tad more objective about their complains and actually sit down and play with Sona not to compare her kit with her old self but to master her highs and lows and THEN come and complain for valid things like:
-Song of celerity sometimes moving you out of range from a teammate -Aria of healing mana cost -Q aura uptime being too short. -Hidden power in her ult that people barely notices should be in her natural scaling
-yes Then how come there are no cry threads about Zileans bombs, having like Sonas powerchords, no Counterplay at early game levels.
Reliable perhaps not, but her slow is quite potent, though, everyone seems to be in love with Q power chord so...
It's good if bot lane gets an gank, but she can't peel off an enemy with it. She can slow them, but with the modren mobility meta, everyone can catch her up, and lets not forget that the most adcs have long ranged abilities to kill.
Quite the opposite, she can do it ALL, hence, why she should be mediocre at all of them, she's the jack of all trades of support and if you wanna see her real power you gotta know how to use it ALL, not just button mashing.
Have fun utilizing that 1.5 second shield while adcs do sustained damage.. over 1.5 seconds. The slow can be potent, but is not reliable, mostly if sona has to stop her movement, throw and auto attack with her low attack speed base, and then begin to run again. Experienced players will find easily a way to kill her anyways.
All, mages do have autoattacks that they use in between skills, orbwalking is a must in ALL roles, not just ADC.
Then, why most of them don't use them? When I play together with mages, they use their auto attacks either on their minions, or just use their abilities instead.
Same is true for almost every support, more importantly the ones who can ward safely are mostly supports with haste, Sona has a haste that works wonders, now if you like playing chase the frog in the jungle while the rest of the game is going forward I have bad news for you. Honestly you can ward effectively as Sona, who says otherwise needs to really check the way they're playing, now if there's no enemy in sight and you just so happen to remember you have sightstone and decide to ward dragon at 40 minutes alone... really? come on.
So, let's think about it. You just did go b to heal yourself up, you go next to your teammates, and one of them requests that you ward around. I as support main would ward the bushes in the river, wich is extremly risky if no ones around, yet no one wants to come with me, because they're clearing waves or clearing the jungle. You're forced as support to ward alone most the time, because your teammates have to do also more important stuff and should not babysit their support all the time.
Sona is NOT an immobile champion, more specifically, she doesn't even need to move to cast her skills and thanks to Song of celerity low cost and high uptime she has an effective movement speed relative to the likes of Janna, if you can't click to move that doesn't mean Sona is immobile ._.
Janna gets passively alot of movement speed by her own, and considering that she also builds an Talisman, she's running quite fastly around. Sonas E has a 12 second cooldown and lasts only 3 seconds. It sure gives a burst of movement speed, if Sona builds shittons of AP. Yeah, many people would say the argument that she has the mobility boots, wich give more ms, but if it happens, that an enemy finds you and attacks you, you'll be extremly slow, and there is nothing Sona can do against it. If the enemy has a gapcloser, she's pretty much lost, either with or without speedboost.
I'm sorry if I sound rude, it is not my intention but people against Sona's nerfs need to be a tad more objective about their complains and actually sit down and play with Sona not to compare her kit with her old self but to master her highs and lows and THEN come and complain for valid things like:
-Song of celerity sometimes moving you out of range from a teammate -Aria of healing mana cost -Q aura uptime being too short. -Hidden power in her ult that people barely notices should be in her natural scaling
The Speedboost for allies is only 1.5 seconds. Her new celerity is extremly selfish, because she benefits the most out of it for now.
The Aria mana cost is absurdly high, thats true, but her shield is extremly hard to utilize, and the healing amount is extremly weak too.
The Q aura uptime is alright in my opinion, and the hidden power in her ultimate is also quite weak, I really hope they come up with something better .
It's alright to disagree, but I play her extremly often now, even with those nerfs, and in my opinion she's now even weaker than before. I feel awkward to say this, but I really wish that more people would actually try her, mostly support mains, because many people seem to judge her from that what they read, but not from what those spells really do.
there are things we disagree on and that's ok, though that last paragraph is where I can agree, I'm support bot, meaning that I main ADC and support, (I play in LAN, so this account is here so I can weight in discussions from time to time) and most of the problems people outline I feel like I don't have them.
In Sona's specific case I've been pretty successful with her, to the point that since her rework I've lost barely something like 20% of the games I've picked her and in none of those I've felt like a nuisance. My only real problem with Sona is that I feel actually too powerful sometimes and tend to KS unintentionally (there was this one game where I went something like 17/5/20 and I couldn't stop killing people ._.)
(there was this one game where I went something like 17/5/20 and I couldn't stop killing people ._.)
Aka exactly how I felt pre-"rework" Sona. Ending with a score of 10-2-20 was just an average game.
Now? Lol
Reliable perhaps not, but her slow is quite potent, though, everyone seems to be in love with Q power chord so...
Except Sona is 1 of 2 supports in the entire game that lack hard pre-6 CC. The 2nd is Zilean, who's is more accessible, stronger and has greater duration. Matter-of-factly, Zilean has the longest guaranteed slow of the support class. Only 1 other champion has a **potentially **longer slow: Nami
So, Zilean makes up for his lack of hard CC with the longest slow in support. Sona? Nope, she just has the blatantly worst pre-6 CC amongst all supports.
Quite the opposite, she can do it ALL, hence, why she should be mediocre at all of them, she's the jack of all trades of support
This was once true, almost 6 months ago. Then July 30th happened. Sona's current state is more like "Dabbler of all Trades" or "Has-Been of all Trades." She's quite literally the worst in everything she does, mediocre no longer.
Don't forget that a level 1 karma can deal damage with empowered Q that does MORE damage than a sona chord combo.
I mean, what if they took a completely fair champion (I don't know, Vladimir?) that no one thought was toxic for gameplay,
Please don't ever comment about balance again.
So Vladimir is in need of nerfs, you're saying?
I think he's referring to a moment in the past in which vladimir's sustain made him a completely overbearing lane-opponent. Right now Vlad is pretty balanced if not a bit on the weak side IMO.
Vladimir is in a good spot, because his sustain isn't too strong, nor is he too strong in general. Talking about the past is one thing, but then again we're on the topic of Sona, and Riot isn't really explaining much about why they're placing so many nerfs on Sona when other, more problematic champions are running rampant
So Vladimir is in need of nerfs, you're saying?
Vladimir is, by Riot's own admission, one of the most toxic champions in the game. Morello once said something to effect of wishing he was never released. If you weren't around when he was strong consider yourself lucky. The the only reason he isn't dominating every lane right now is because Riot took him to the GP School of Nerfing; they just cut his numbers and nerfed his items until he was weak enough to not win lane early.
Really though that was the only option without doing a full-scale rework because his kit, like Sona's, has no mechanical gameplay. You walk forward and press 2 buttons while standing in the general area of your enemy.
I'm not saying he needs to be nerfed, but you can bet if his pick rate and win rate start to creep up Riot will squash him instantly because of the nature of the kit-- which is exactly what's happened to Sona. I can't say that it's the correct or ideal way of balancing, but I find it kind of ridiculous that people seem to be baffled why Riot is doing it.
There are so many people asking why there are nerfs to Sona, as opposed to champions like Zed, Fizz, Yasuo, Akali, Katarina, etc. Vladimir isn't going to have any increase in win/pick rate just because there are other champions that make lanes more painful, and people are going to pick those champions more often than Vlad.
he's talking about s2 vlad. The most broken top lane next to irelia was vlad.
you could go 3 spellvamp quints and out trade people even pre six at vlad because you'd just heal back up with CDR gylphs+cdr masteries Complete and utter joke.
That does sound scary O_o That's almost like a 100% Lifesteal Nasus/Warwick... Not to mention Nasus's Q-stacks...
yeah now its just renekton who's the "broken" bruiser/tank/ap tank top laner Everyone else is just Meh compared to him. espically since tiamat cancels his wind up on his W/Qmaking him auto/animation cancel into more free damage in a trade lol
I literally haven't seen Renekton in AGES! But I guess with the tentative Renekton passive changes on PBE, I guess we might see more play out of the guy? That's actually pretty funny lol The auto cancels making too many #LCSBigPlays
"i wasn't around so idk wtf I'm talking about" "but heres my opinion" LMFAO I can't breathe.
Well that depends
Was Irelia "garbage trash unviable" every time she got nerfed slightly?
#betternerfsona
Sona is the 'OLD' Irelia. The old Irelia who was nerfed over and over again, with no justification, and while her competitors reigned far more powerful than her.
'NEW' Irelia needs nerfed.
Sona's Q does a whole 30 damage? welp BetterNerfSona
No. She is not. Irelia is actually decent.
I have been playing sense beta and Irelia was and is a rather balanced champ as of now. It is different with sona she is a highly team based champ her auras ever sense they got ride of them being persistant she has to be next to a team mate although she does have some 1v1 capabilitys, but so does taric vs an ad so nerfing sona would mean all the other supports need a nerf.
Irelia's been strong since mid S4 and still hasn't gotten nerfed so yes.
Wow, they should "nerf" all my favorite champions to Irelia status. I'd love it.
At least after nerfs upon nerfs, irelia is still viable (I main her).
PFTTTT they nerfed her even more now, I swear mid Sona is now impossible compared to two months ago. (AKA still good but Sona was broken.)
#BetterNerfSona
Sona's heal in a nutshell.