PSA: Just because the Metagame counters your main champ, doesn't mean it counters your category

MrSc0tty··7 votes·970 views

Nearly every class has a subset of champions that fares incredibly well at countering another class while not being as good of an all-round pick.

If a class that generally beats out yours becomes the meta, the "all- round" picks of your class will be bullied out, while the "specialist" picks will shine.

For example: early in season 4, the AD bruiser Bully/Splitpush meta was bullied out by extreme tanks due to an itemization shift. The all-round picks like Tryndamere found themselves struggling against the standard tanks like Mundo and Nasus, who could ignore them at early levels thanks to Doran's Shield. Because of this, Trundle, a bruiser specialized in fighting tanks, had a period of popularity before the tanks got Nerfed.

The same thing is happening everywhere, all the time. Super mobile early bully junglers are the norm and late game picks are being bullied out? Rengar is still strong because of his early dueling power despite a really important level six power spike. High poke midlaners become the norm? Yasuo is near-permabanned because he's almost a perfect counter to that meta.

Get creative with your picks, and know your specialists.

Bruisers: anti-tank, Trundle, Darius. Anti-assassin, Garen. Anti-range, Irelia, Wukong, Pantheon

Every class has its ups and downs. Sometimes, yes, only the specialists can be played. Several classes, like poke supports and tanks, have been bullied out for so long that all people recognize is the few specialists that have been consistently playable. But it's very, very rare that an entire class is so bullied that they're out of the game entirely. I would argue that it's almost never happened except in extreme hot fixed imbalance cases like League of Cleavers and the Week of Targons. So keep your head up-you don't have to give up your favorite class to avoid having an unfavorable lane matchup every time.

24 Comments

ploki1222 votes

Just main Poppy, there won't ever be a true damage era anyway.

MrSc0tty2 votes

Vayne meta?

JungHai02 votes

Ult support, E-Q Vayne. Done.

ploki1221 votes

Nah, ulting support is often a bad idea, in most cases you'Re much better ulting the mid laner. He'll chunk you quite a bit more, but it'll take him so much time to get through your LS alone that you'll be occupying both carries for the duration of the fight (and often taking one with you). Also, at taht point you'Re much better just ulting Vayne and going for her, that 40% enhanced damage means that you won't ever get outdamaged (unless you get kited to death which should happen since you should be wearing BotRK and Red buff or be an AP Poppy and literally 1-shot overkill her by 50% of her hp).

Phoneixflare1 votes

except ulting the support means you literally take no damage from anything but the support sooooooooooooo unless the support is hella fed it's almost always 100% better to take less damage than more. UIting vayne means she gets to deal true damage to you....and if you're playing poppy correctly that 40% damage shouldnt matter. it only matters in 1v1 lane matchups and other than that it's only semi important

RadiatingShark1 votes

so you'd let the person on their team with probably the most CC potential be the only one to hit you? good idea. If you ult the toplaner youd be able to get in on their carries while he tries to get to your carries.

Phoneixflare1 votes

or if you ult the support, you can dodge their cc(for instance, nami bubble) and still wreck their carry. Plus, they don't do that much damage by themselves...it's about not taking damage. the whole point is to not take any damage from anything but that one target...so targeting the one with the least damage output(that could even be the toplaner or adc in some cases) will be the most wise decision. Most of the time, the support does not contribute to most of the damage...meaning in most situations it's wiser to ult the support so that you can kill the adc or apc and then kill the support with that good ol 40% damage increase.

Phoneixflare1 votes

rekt

The Lord Lestat2 votes

I use Vlad and his weak early game is a problem for me in PVP because I always get pushed back with a bruiser. Vlad's late game is where he shines, but most people hate Vlad because of this.

Wheatloaf2 votes

So long as you make it to level 10, you basically win lane as Vlad, his power spike once he starts maxing E after finishing his Q is absurd.

MEMEME6701 votes

Ah yes, the Anti-Range melee dps....

Well okay, maybe we can't have everything, at least we have the anti-Burst melee dps....

Cmon, at least one character in this class has be good at high elo....

Welp.

MrSc0tty1 votes

Yasuo.

Anti burst?

Master Yi. Maybe Aatrox? Tryn if they have less CC.

Anti-cc: Nocturne Anti-Squishy: Fiora. Early game bully: Shaco. Standard pick: Tryndamere.

Not more of an underpowered class than pure tanks or poke supports. Right now only Maokai and Ali are strictly "viable" from one and Nami from the other. Seems equivalent to only Yasuo and niche pick Aatrox and Nocturne.

MEMEME6701 votes

Yeah, yasuo is anti-range.

Yi is NOT anti burst, and Aatrox isn't a melee dps. Tryndamere looks like it, but the situation where he gets bursted (assuming he ults in time, because sometimes he wont) is the same as the situation where he gets dps'd down except he dies a lot faster.

Poke support isn't an equivalent comparison to melee dps, becuase poke support is a niche from a role. Melee DPS are only even close to Ranged DPS because they both do dps, but due to how good range is in Moba's, they're completely different classes.

I also think amumu and rammus are both very viable niche picks.

MrSc0tty1 votes

I see a champion who can be used as a melee DPS as a champion with at least one autoattack steroid or conditional that makes attack speed or crit chance an attractive build option, as well as at least one strong defensive skill that can allow them to survive when built squishy.

Fiora: atkspd and AD steroid, aa deflect and untargetable defense.

Master Yi: atkspd, true damage, 4th attack steroid, untargetable and %damage reduction/heal defense

Nocturne: Atkspd, 4th attack steroid, spell shield and darkness defense

Aatrox: AD steroid and 3rd attack steroid, passive defense

Shaco: %damage steroid and clone %damage effective steroid, blink+stealth and clone defense

Yasuo: Crit steroid, AS scaling, Arpen steroid, windwall and flow shield defense

Tryndamere: AD and Crit steroid, ult defense.

Those are the champs who are standing out to me as champs who could be used as melee DPS-viability aside in this case. You don't agree on Aatrox-why's that? Also I would argue that the distinction between poke/sustain ranged supports and engage/tank melee supports or damage/cc Mage supports is as distinct if not more so than the distinction between melee DPS and AD assassin. Nami, Janna, Lulu, Soraka, and Sona comprise that class with Thresh straddling the line between ranged poke and tanky engage much like Xin Zhao straddles the line between bruiser and melee DPS.

If we're looking at high Elo, we must assume that the Tryndamere player will successfully ult if bursted and the ult is up. Saying he might fail is like saying that Veigar's stun should be buffed because high Elo Veigar players might miss it. Besides that point, Tryndamere will always have at least 5 seconds to perform actions then he must retreat and rely on his single heal to keep from dying. So id classify him as countering burst (as he will survive any burst rotation by definition and still have 5 seconds to DPS) but being countered by heavy CC since it is difficult for him to juke Skillshots when trying to engage, lacking an on demand untargetable or hard cc of his own.

What niche would you give Yi then? He has an untargetable that he can use multiple times a fight, mostly useful for avoiding high impact burst or cc abilities. He has a %damage reduction that stops him from DPSing so it's mainly useful for surviving burst you can't dodge or turning on a clutch moment of tankiness when focused in a fight to waste opponents time. He lacks burst compared to Fiora so I wouldn't call him the anti-squishy and he lacks the huge threat range of Nocturne even with his ult and Q. Anti-tank, due to the true damage?

MEMEME6701 votes

Melee dps VS Bruiser is about the optimal build for the champion. You can't define it based on their kit because the meta can change. If Master Yi was to suddenly become very good built as a bruiser for some reason, he would be considered a bruiser. The kit will generally point in a direction, but it doesn't define the character.

Most of your list is good, except... Nocturne doesn't use his ult as a defense, his ult is one of the biggest reasons he has to build tanky. He is going to jump straight into the enemy team in front of his own team, and that means he needs to be able to survive the enemy team for long enough for his team to catch up.

I don't agree on Aatrox because finished builds for him contain 3 or more defensive items, every time. And that seems quite obviously to be a bruiser build, and not something a true melee dps (Yi, Fiora, Trynd) wants to go for.

You say you would argue it, but you fail to actually argue it, so I can't respond to it.

Yeah, assuming Trynd uses his ult is fair. But it doesn't make him anti-burst. To make this comparison, I'm going to look at an anti-burst champion in a different role, Mundo.

Mundo has CC reduction (most burst mages have cc to allow them to safely apply their burst), higher AD based on his missing health, and heavily increased gains from his ultimate when low on health (it costs a % of current hp to use, regens % max).

So, his general plan vs a burst mage is to get low, ult, heal up while they're on cooldown and kill them. But vs a DPS, he can't afford to wait until he is very low to ult, or he risks getting chunked right after and dieng, so he has to either ult somewhat earlier for less gain, or take a pretty big risk.

Tryndamere's play pattern vs burst and dps are the same. Once you would die, you don't for 5 seconds. If you are in the fight with ~2 seconds left, you probably die after your ult to someones ignite. There's no fundamental difference. Most(all?) burst mages have a skill with a 5 or less second cooldown, so he can't really abuse their CD's, and it's not like DPS can lifesteal his damage while he's at 1 hp or anything. Nothing inherently makes his matchup vs Burst easier than his matchup vs DPS. I would say it's harder, because he has to ult earlier.

Yi is the anti-kiting melee dps. True damage != anti-tank, %hp damage does. True damage tends to = anti-melee usually, because they only build resistances and not hp.

Syvenon1 votes

Pantheon is annoying as hell against poke champions. Same with Malphite. Both of their passives negate so much poke and they have a lot of ability to trade well. Malph isn't really a dps champion, but it's kind of a lot to ask of a champion to be able to endure ranged poke and deal high dps

MEMEME6701 votes

Neither of those champions are melee dps though.

Also, I never said anti-poke.

Syvenon1 votes

I mean it's kind of the point of the ranged top that you poke out your opponent. And like I said it's really a lot to ask that you have a champion who can sustain ranged damage as melee and still have really high dps. I think Panth is as close as it comes to what you want and he can really deal a lot of damage.

It's really unfair for someone to be great at everything (seeNidalee )

MEMEME6701 votes

Being able to deal with poke is different from being able to deal with sustained damage (see: Soraka).

But I never even said there wasn't an anti-poke melee dps. And there is one, Yasuo.

Syvenon1 votes

Then I'm just confused what you're asking for. You want someone who is a damage champion who can beat out ranged champions that don't do poke damage and is also melee. Do you mean like Talon? Cause he's pretty good against a lot of ranged champions, but not great against high poke champs.

MEMEME6701 votes

I never said I wanted anything. OP said there's niche picks in every role that beat specific other roles, and that when a given role is generally underpowered, these niche picks tend to become very viable.

I was just pointing out that melee dps a very unviable role and has basically no niche picks.

Syvenon1 votes

zed yasuo and talon are all great mid picks, i think there just arent as many melee ad champions

MEMEME6701 votes

You're confusing melee dps with melee.

Melee DPS are people like Yi, Tryndamere, Fiora, Yasuo.

Zed and Talon are both assassins.

And yeah, yasuo is a viable pick, but he's the only viable pick in the whole role.

Syvenon1 votes

I love yi jungle, just need to put more cc into other lanes. Fiora jungle can be pretty successful too. Also I've seen some pretty devastating teams putting duelists in the bot lane with an aggressive support.

More from Gameplay

More by MrSc0tty