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ADC's feeling this overbearing is the accumulated effect of every Class update

Malicious Metal··138 votes·6,354 views

Juggernaut update: -A champion design whose main weakness is being kited/having no effective range -Black cleaver is changed and continues to shift in and out of flavor for ADC's (Bork/BC Lucian and co)

Marksman update: -Buff to every crit item -Introduces a slew of new effects for AD items -Cait and Graves, nuff said

Mage update: -Mages get less AP and most of the battlemages get their burst/damage delayed -Subsequent changes to rylais and co make most mages spike mid game and fall of later on

Support item changes: -A TON of shields/heals -Boost to already strong healers as the new shield/heal% stacking makes them able to save ADC's from certain death

Tank update: -Item value and tank stats are lower across the board -Reworked tanks lost their steroids in favor of "anti burst" steroids (sej passive for example)

Assassin update: -Increased burst window for assassins, giving ADC's plenty of time to react -Basically gimped the entire class and made them essentially worthless imo

All in all it's the past changes and updates to items/classes that made ADC's come on on top and are currently just taking up way too much of a team's power. I KNOW this is a team game, and I like it for that, but not everyone's effectively 20% of a team's power as it all revolves around our buddies in the bot lane carry position.

I just want for everyone on our team to feel like they're an important variable for our victory, and not just feel like all I have to do is to protect MY adc and destroy the enemy one.

All in all, I think the ADC class is too archaic in their design and needs some rethinking. A position that's THIS important isn't really something I enjoy in this game and I'd rather redistribute the value I put on my teammates.

227 Comments

Over Innsmouth56 votes

the ADC class is too archaic in their design

How dare you! Ranged, point-click, CDless, totally resourceless damage is the backbone of good game design that allows for more than fair counterplay! Draintanking Marksmen is just the cutting-edge of great design that Riot's gifting us worthless non-ADC players.

PePsiLemoNN2 votes

So let's mage baisc attacks skillshots and give them mana cost? That definitely sounds ok

Teridax6817 votes

I don't think that was entirely the point of the argument: it's okay for marksmen to have above-average autoattacking power, because every champion needs a baseline amount of reliability, and for marksmen that's with basic attacks. However, what is not okay is for marksmen to go all-in on reliability and have the near-totality of their power be impossible to counter properly, which is one of the class's central issues right now.

macromite10 votes

the central issue is that they do damage which compares well with (or supercedes) the other damage classes. they should be the definable weakest form of damage class, utilizing the slow damage type (sustain damage) and having no resource usage at all nor skillshots to hit. they keep popping up as overpowered because they keep being allowed to have their reliability without tangible drawbacks.

korg0233 votes

You forgot to say, such interactive skill based gameplay filled with action and excitement.

Ahristocats27 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cRaTbjHi,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-06-26T22:48:46.172+0000)

I KNOW this is a team game, and I like it for that, but not everyone's effectively 20% of a team's power as it all revolves around our buddies in the bot lane carry position.

believe it or not, but in season 3, season 4, or basically at almost any time of league, it was like this

https://youtu.be/Bbn0szRR4GA?t=3670

xin building locket renekton building black cleaver into full tank the entire team relied on ezreal to do damage

i remember clearly as i was a PURE TOPLANE main in season 3, i never played any other role except when old selection forced me to i had 82% win rate on shen on 40 games, renekton was one of my most played champ and everytime, i went full tank and relied on my adc to win on both champs

and there is nothing wrong about that, because you still have your own impact believe it or not , your adc won't win if you don't manage to dodge shit/block skillshot ect...

it's a teamgame and everyone has his job

my only problem is marksmen being mandatory, other than that, the adc ROLE (not marksmen) being the center of the game is fine, it works like this in dota 2

by the way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6dPbIee3OI&feature=youtu.be

SpecterVonBaren8 votes

Jeez I miss when ADC was legit the only good source of damage late game. Now it feels like everyone and their mother does a metric ton of damage.

Critmaster Garen18 votes

{quoted}

Jeez I miss when ADC was legit the only good source of damage late game. Now it feels like everyone and their mother does a metric ton of damage.

i dont, because this game has more than marksmen as lategame carries.

SpecterVonBaren7 votes

Well keep in mind I'm a support main so an ADC's late game is MY late game by extension. :p

But I dislike this new mentality that everyone should be a carry with carry levels of damage because it leads to games with disgustingly high amounts of damage being thrown around everywhere so that a single small slip means certain death.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

Well keep in mind I'm a support main so an ADC's late game is MY late game by extension. :p

But I dislike this new mentality that everyone should be a carry with carry levels of damage because it leads to games with disgustingly high amounts of damage being thrown around everywhere so that a single small slip means certain death.

its not a new mentality. marksmen arent the only type of carry in this game.

its not that other classes should do more damage, but marksmen should simply deal way way less damage if they want to remain as safe as theyre now.

and by way less i mean cut by 25% to 1/3 depending on the champion (like Caitlyn).

Akali is SO HOT7 votes

[{quoted}](name=WTF DARIUS ADC ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cRaTbjHi,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-06-26T22:59:17.598+0000) by the way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6dPbIee3OI&feature=youtu.be

That doesn't count because the Jax player wasn't our lord and savior super top laner Hashinshin

Bârd2 votes

I miss the old super minions.

The giant claw hands were the best.

ProfDrDeath4 votes

my only problem is marksmen being mandatory, other than that, the adc ROLE (not marksmen) being the center of the game is fine, it works like this in dota 2

The thing is, due to the way XP works, this will not be changed easily.

Game always has a marksman because they are, as ranged auto-attack-focused champions, the least negatively affected by sharing XP - unlike melees, they don't require the base stats from leveling up for safety, as range seldomly scales with levels. And auto-attack DPS scales WAY harder with gold than with experience - for most marksmen, base AD is barely doubled between level 1 and 18, whereas the AS gain from levels does not exceed 68%. Contrast abilities, whose base values are often tripled between rank 1 and rank 5.

To truely offer an alternative to marksmen in the bot lane, Riot needs to find a non-problematic way to make less XP-dependent mages. For example, they could revive Cass' old stacking passive - that was feeling odd on her kit back then, but was, at least in theory, a way to make a champion's strength scaling somewhat XP-independent. Current Cass did a 180° turn from that direction, though - the implementation of her MS/lvl passive made her more XP-dependent, and thus a worse bot laner.

Penns16 votes

You forgot Assassin update:

  • Released Redemption and Locket LUL
PussNoShoes6 votes

Assassin update was bad, really bad.

Blades of Navori15 votes

Matches do rely a lot on the ADC. I feel like 90% of my losses can be attributed to a bad ADC. Just had a game with a bad ADC and we lost while the enemy's ADC did amazing in comparison.

Ralanr2 votes

It's never "both ADCs suck" is it?

morris12 votes

That's usually when both junglers get involved in bot lane and take all the kills (and junglers are a huge deciding factor too).

Big Lincoln13 votes

i wish people would use op support items on me but im not a ranged overlord

feels bad

Chembaron Yamada4 votes

Urgot. Become a ranged overlord Juggernaut, soon!

deadlychuck10 votes

The problem is that this was there attempt to modernize marksmen.

They might feel archaic, because they use one of the most fundamental mechanics of the game, so when riot tried to shift them to fill a role which the fundamental mechanics which they most utilize don't naturally fit into, given the context of the rest of the game, then you have stupid shit like this.

Consistent damage output is never intended to kill shit in PvP, it's natural role is to create constant pressure which, if ignored too much, can bring an enemy down into kill range for your burst damage.

It's like a Affliction warlock in wow, or at least how they use to be, where they might deal the MOST damage in the match, but they often lack kills (as in getting the last hit), because they're creating pressure through damage, not killing people outright.

Riot's attempt to make them capable of filling a role as "tank slayers" has cause all sorts of problems.

korg0233 votes

All class update is shit imo, they should have never went with that idea at first place. Just focus on individual kits and stop doing class updates thank you RITO.

Critmaster Garen8 votes

you can add the fact that marksmen items got directly buffed, they got scaling mr/lvl and new items aswell with the tank update.

fuffychan6 votes

Oh look another whining thread about ADCs

Its not like tanks like Galio Sejuani Zac are dominating the game or anything

Ahristocats35 votes

sejuani dominating games?

Paroe4 votes

hmmm.... I disagree sort of.

I think the problem is that the weakening of defensive and offensive classes combined with buffs to AD sustain and sustain/shield supports has simply exacerbated an existing problem instead of creating a new one entirely. Marksman are obscenely powerful, theres no two ways about it and its been true for a long time. With the weakening of marksman counters and the strengthening of AD sustain and support sustain itemization marksman just dont have much in the way of checks for their balance.

Ralanr11 votes

We also need to target the power in supports with how they are keeping their carries alive.

Yes it's part of their job, but they're doing it too well.

Paroe4 votes

{quoted}

We also need to target the power in supports with how they are keeping their carries alive.

Yes it's part of their job, but they're doing it too well.

I.... Would say no. Supports feel nice to play right now; the problem with them is that theyre a legitimate source of sustain right now and that, when combined with other sources of sustain, becomes broken. Nerfing AD sustain itemization would be a good start, supports themselves dont really need changes for the most part.

Ralanr5 votes

Idk. Support tanks can be more durable than solo tanks right now.

5d0x4allx03 votes

Are ADCs overbearing?

I think you just meant to say Caitlyn. Maybe dial Death's Dance and/or Ninja Tabi back a bit (though Marksmen are hardly the only abusers of these items) and we gucci.

IcyPepper15 votes

Are ADCs overbearing?

How many roles classes are viable bot lane?

AirKingNeo4 votes

Does it matter if marksmen are the only viable bot lane class? Actually ask that first. This entire thing is "let's change X" without realizing "why is X happening".

Critmaster Garen24 votes

{quoted}

Does it matter if marksmen are the only viable bot lane class? Actually ask that first. This entire thing is "let's change X" without realizing "why is X happening".

yes, it matters because it means marksmen will always take up a carry slot on your team no matter what. this makes building a teamcomp around a carry whos not a marksman difficult.

if you want to have or play another type of carry, it forces your team to split their focus between supporting 2 carries instead of one.

and this in turn makes teamcomps with a carry other than a marksman very nieche.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Is there any other ranged, high DPS class?

Critmaster Garen18 votes

{quoted}

Is there any other ranged, high DPS class?

ap carries. Azir Ryze Cassiopeia

and then there are melee carries like juggernauts and skirmishers. they need support in their own way aswell.

for example, if you wouldnt be forced to pick a marksman on your team, you could build a teamcomp more focused around a carry like Darius support him with heals and shields and set him up to get in melee range of the enemy team and survive there.

but since marksmen need so much attention from tanks and supports, carries like juggs are often expected to do it all by themselves.

AirKingNeo2 votes

So why aren't AP carries played bot lane?

and then there are melee carries like juggernauts and skirmishers. they need support in their own way aswell.

They don't have high DPS. You need full damage builds to have high DPS. You need to be ranged to build full damage or else die.

Critmaster Garen27 votes

{quoted}

So why aren't AP carries played bot lane?

people tried. marksmen mains lost their shit called adc "trash" because "you dont even need them anymore" and we are where we are now.

They don't have high DPS. You need full damage builds to have high DPS. You need to be ranged to build full damage or else die.

no you dont. juggernauts are designed around high base damage and heavy defensive oriented builds. they are supposed to deal carry level damage with just one or two damage items, and the rest defensive items.

the downside is, that they need support to get into melee range of the enemy team, and survive there to deal damage and actually carry.

after the juggernaut update season 5 we had teamcomps in pro play built around Darius carrying just as much as teams used to build comps around supporting KogMaw or Twitch

THATS what juggernauts are supposed to be. and in many cases skirmishers aswell.

AirKingNeo2 votes

people tried. marksmen mains lost their shit called adc "trash" because "you dont even need them anymore" and we are where we are now.

No, that never happened. Ziggs was the only bot lane mage. So I'll repeat question, why does no one play AP carries bot lane and WHY wasn't it done before, such during season 2 when ADCs were dogshit until late game.

Juggernauts don't deal high DPS though. They deal spell based burst. Plus, they're not ranged. Oh, and Darius comps need certain ADCs to work and melt the tanks that will peel him off.

Critmaster Garen15 votes

{quoted}

No, that never happened. Ziggs was the only bot lane mage. So I'll repeat question, why does no one play AP carries bot lane and WHY wasn't it done before, such during season 2 when ADCs were dogshit until late game.

because mainly mages, including ap carries are item and xp dependent, while marksmen are only item dependent.

Juggernauts don't deal high DPS though. They deal spell based burst. Plus, they're not ranged. Oh, and Darius comps need certain ADCs to work and melt the tanks that will peel him off.

why does a carry have to be ranged? the concept of melee carries isnt difficult to understand.

Darius is a good example for this. he has ramping up damage, but not just burst. he can deal a fair amount of sustained damage from a fully stacked bleed.

other juggs like Nasus Udyr Trundle Shyvana Olaf Yorick are all designed around sustained damage and not burst.

AirKingNeo1 votes

So, mages can't go bot lane to do their method of scaling into the mid game well. So, who else is supposed to be a ranged, high DPS class? Kayle?

why does a carry have to be ranged? the concept of melee carries isnt difficult to understand.

Because melee carries don't work in teamfights. Look at Xin Zhao. He has a modified crit in his kit which makes his scaling multiplying. However, he can't build full damage to take advantage of that scaling? Why? Because the mage and ADC will blow him up. Being melee means he won't be able to get past the frontline either.

This is why Fiora, despite being broken, sucks in teamfights.

Critmaster Garen13 votes

{quoted}

So, mages can't go bot lane to do their method of scaling into the mid game well. So, who else is supposed to be a ranged, high DPS class? Kayle?

Because melee carries don't work in teamfights. Look at Xin Zhao. He has a modified crit in his kit which makes his scaling multiplying. However, he can't build full damage to take advantage of that scaling? Why? Because the mage and ADC will blow him up. Being melee means he won't be able to get past the frontline either.

This is why Fiora, despite being broken, sucks in teamfights.

this is why its a game of enabling the mele carry of your team, while the enemy team tries to kite and peel. whichever team performs better wins the fight.

we already saw teamcomps like this work in pro play when they built them around darius in season 5.

if you have 4 people being able to work with a melee carry instead of 3 people having to split their attention between a ranged carry and a melee carry, then the melee cary might also perform better.

and while fiora sucks ass in teamfights, yasuo does rather well carrying his team in larger fights when he doesnt happen to be nerfed to trash.

not to mention, as long as marksmen are overbearing, and defensive itemization is trash, no shit melee carries like juggs dont have a chance at performing well against a team supporting a marksman.

Big Lincoln6 votes

even then, a well-protected/enabled juggernaut except for maybe Darius will still take much longer to clean up a fight than an ADC

which is fair enough i guess since they go full damage, but i think a lot of juggernauts just aren't worth building a comp around and the jugg will end up deciding if they fit for the rest of the team

Ralanr9 votes

Because their high dps is locked through spells while ADCs don't have that issue.

Azir needs his soldiers, Jinx just needs items.

The carry role doesn't always have to be bot though.

AirKingNeo1 votes

So you're saying AP carries don't have real DPS, but kinda delayed rapid burst.

So, they don't fit a ranged DPS role really. So? Who other than marksmen would?

Ralanr4 votes

Maybe they should change how the consistent dps of marksmen work.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Well, how? It has to be consistent and it has to be DPS.

You could make them entirely made to kill tanky people and non squishies unless they build items that suck at tank killing, but then mages and marksmen wouldn't be threatened by marksmen.

Ralanr4 votes

First off, idk.

Second off, so what? They could be threatened by assassins and fighters.

AirKingNeo8 votes

So here's my idea.

  • Nerf the bullshit survivability in some way. Same with broken support items.

  • Nerf Infinity Edge's critical damage modifier to +35%.

  • Change Essence Reaver into a cheaper item that gives 20% crit, 20% CDR, and 55-60 AD. Like 2900 gold. Warhammer + Pickaxe + Cloak.

  • Slightly better first item, but technically worse as the game goes on. Costs less, and less effective late game.

  • BoRK gets +3% lifesteal, but the onhit damage will be reduced to 6.5% for RANGED ONLY.

Objective of these changes. Make BoRK good on melees still and give it a fair reduction for ranged. Keep IE and Essence as cheap items, just lower their power. Make Essence about the same value as a Zeal item so caster ADCs are actually outscaled. The problem with ADCs is that their late is too good, but their early always sucked, so they built other classes items or early game items, while still having IE to fall back on. Now ADCs got their early raised, but their late never lowered. Their late should be lowered to compensate. Also, now people don't have to bitch about ADCs being worthless early if we keep them decent early.

Rivuo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cRaTbjHi,comment-id=0001000100020002,timestamp=2017-06-27T00:28:48.671+0000)

yes, it matters because it means marksmen will always take up a carry slot on your team no matter what. this makes building a teamcomp around a carry whos not a marksman difficult.

if you want to have or play another type of carry, it forces your team to split their focus between supporting 2 carries instead of one.

and this in turn makes teamcomps with a carry other than a marksman very nieche.

Supports are the same thing. They're always bot lane and when you take cough lulu or select few other lanes they become oppressive as adcs do too.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

Supports are the same thing. They're always bot lane and when you take cough lulu or select few other lanes they become oppressive as adcs do too.

"support" is something entirely different. the role can be taken on by many different champions from multiple classes. be it tanks, mages, enchanters, and even fighters and marksmen have been known to support.

the only position thats locked down to a single class of champions is the carry position in the duo lane, which has except for some rare short lived exceptions like ziggs been marksmen for years.

thats one of the things that has to change.

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