@Riot, DeathDance: who is it intended for?

DeathBurst·Jan 12, 2016·1 votes·702 views

[Please, do not comment with something such as "Nobody, it's a trash item." Thanks :) If it's just a power-level issue, it can be number-tuned, but my question is about the item's design.]

Who is DeathDance targeted for?

Quite obviously, with raw AD and CDR and pseudo-lifesteal on skill damages, it's for AD Caster. But what AD Casters? I mean, Assassins like Zed or Talon don't really want Lifesteal, neither Fighters like Garen or Renekton or Vi.

And for ADC, the caster-like ADC usually go for Essence Reaver + Trinity Force, so the CDR on DeathDance would be over the cap already. Additionally, DeathDance applies only his pseudo-lifesteal, it does not synergize well with other lifesteal items (contrary to BtrK or Ravenous with their passive, for instance).

So I'm lost, I don't understand who is even supposed to be using this item...

23 Comments

kaltenashesJan 12, 20161 votes

not sure also, i wanna know it too i've seen rivens/fioras and adcs building this item

i think its for adc/fighters when the enemy team has an assassin or someone who can burst you down really quickly Leblanc Rengar

MunchCrunchLunchJan 12, 20161 votes

its good on assassins. talon or zed. since you heal off all damage instead of just lifesteal bassic attacks. when you ult and your low you get some heal off while getting bleed effect to not get bursted as easily. its also getting buffed.

again. you heal off all damage not basic attacks so its actually really good on both talon and zed

Captain AishiJan 12, 20161 votes

it's pretty good on dive fighters that scale off of AD and CDR, since the passive is basically damage reduction when you combine the bleed with the healing you get from your spells that lifesteal wouldn't give you

Sire HippingtonJan 12, 20161 votes

I think your mistaken in that assasin or fighters don't want lifesteal, cause they do, esoecially if it works on their skills aswell. The bigger problem is more that assasins don't want to loose to much damage for it, but the buffs next patch will solve that, while fighters usually have a problem with purely offensive items, so for them it will mostly become interesting if they are snowballing. It's pretty great on ad-poke casters like varus or jayce, as they can sustain through counterpoke with it, forceing their opponents to find an engage.

Also, trinity+ER only gives 30& cdr, as trinity only gives 20% crit, and while it would be nice if it allowed all lifesteal to apply on all physicall damage, it certainly has no anti.synergie with lifesteal and it synergieses with hydra and BotrK just aswell as any normal lifesteal would.

DeathBurstJan 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cQ5fh7QK,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-01-12T19:22:48.677+0000)

I think your mistaken in that assasin or fighters don't want lifesteal, cause they do, esoecially if it works on their skills aswell. The bigger problem is more that assasins don't want to loose to much damage for it, but the buffs next patch will solve that, while fighters usually have a problem with purely offensive items, so for them it will mostly become interesting if they are snowballing. It's pretty great on ad-poke casters like varus or jayce, as they can sustain through counterpoke with it, forceing their opponents to find an engage.

OK, I stand corrected.

Also, trinity+ER only gives 30& cdr, as trinity only gives 20% crit, and while it would be nice if it allowed all lifesteal to apply on all physicall damage, it certainly has no anti.synergie with lifesteal and it synergieses with hydra and BotrK just aswell as any normal lifesteal would.

ER ultimately gives 30%, even if not directly with just a triforce. So the CDR on DD would be wasted ultimately. And I didn't mean that DD anti-synergyze with BtrK/Ravenous. I meant that DD doesn't synergize with, e.g. Bloodthirster, since Bloodthirster lifesteal isn't applied, while Bloodthirster lifesteal *is applied to AoE from Ravenous / on-hit from BtrK.

Asayake 5150glowJan 12, 20161 votes

Honestly it's good on basically anyone AD. 65 AD, psuedo dmg reduction, life+ad spellsvamp, Cdr.

But I think it's targeted for AD who also built attack speed (thus rendering Hydra less useful).

DeathBurstJan 12, 20161 votes

I highly doubt that. If you built AS, you're probably not a Caster champ.

Asayake 5150glowJan 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I highly doubt that. If you built AS, you're probably not a Caster champ.

It doesn't matter though - it's an alternative to Rav. Rav's active is meant for assassins with low attack speed, so they can animation cancel. That's clearly not as effective if you have good attack speed (then the only thing it's good for is the passive).

DeathBurstJan 13, 20161 votes

AD champ with good AS would probably prefer a Bloodthirster.

Asayake 5150glowJan 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

AD champ with good AS would probably prefer a Bloodthirster.

Well... it also counters burst! BT requires minions around to keep the shield up, and if ur melee u'll get poked when you go up to attack the minions.

rG ThundragJan 12, 20161 votes

The few people I've seen using it is really Olaf for low hp sustain from the damage amp and %vamp on everything stacking his w's increased healing.

And Darius as his 2nd damage item since DOTs apply the full 12% vamp essentially making his bleed a warmogs late game

NekusenJan 12, 20161 votes

in short: melee bruisers.

LegenDariusGarenJan 13, 20161 votes

Patch 6.1, it is going to be the go to life steal item on everyone. I'm even going to pick it up on Garen, along with the new assassin item.

DeathBurstJan 13, 20161 votes

You're talking about power levels, not design goals.... And the new assassin item won't go out in 6.1.

But I main Garen, and now that you mention it, I should definitely try that item on him. It could be the last item to get to 40%CDR with Cleaver and Spirit Visage.

LegenDariusGarenJan 13, 20161 votes

I didn't say it was coming out in 6.1. I was just throwing it out there. I currently get 40% cdr for Garen from item 3071 item 3142 item 3078 , so I might replace ghostblade with death's dance since it gives more AD, equal cdr, somewhat tankyness via passive, and that heal.

DeathBurstJan 13, 20161 votes

Cleaver and Triforce at the same time is definitely not a good idea... The Phage passive doesn't stack 2 times. Also, the mana is completely lost, and Spellblade procs add a bit more burst, but you should be able to kill squishy even without it. All in all, Triforce is just a barely average item on Garen, and not gold efficient at all. If I had to replace an item in the 3 you chose, it would be Triforce, not Ghostblade. And looking at your match history, you don't even build Triforce yourself...

LegenDariusGarenJan 13, 20161 votes

If I want 40% cdr, I build it. Some games, I prefer item 3156 instead. I don't build triforce for the phage. I build it for the ~270 damage on sheen proc, the 20% crit ( I run crit runes), the 5% movement speed, the 250 HP, and 10% cdr. I especially get it if I need to assassinate a high priority target, which is how I like to play Garen.

DeathBurstJan 13, 20161 votes

You didn't build Triforce a single time in your last 50 games with Garen...

And you're in diamond with Garen as your main champ so I guess I can't argue too much, but as a personal taste, I really dislike playing Garen as an assassin.

LegenDariusGarenJan 13, 20161 votes

I hit diamond with pre-rework Garen, building mostly 3--4 damage items. You can't hard carry with Garen by going mostly defensive items. I built triforce 5x within the last week of the ~20x that I played Garen in a normal match. http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2064761944/200062731?tab=overview http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2063876740/200062731?tab=overview http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2062518154/200062731?tab=overview http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2060779453/200062731?tab=overview http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2060685831/200062731?tab=overview

DeathBurstJan 13, 20161 votes

Oh, ok... As I'm in EUW, not NA, I can't see your normal matches with the search function.

LegenDariusGarenJan 13, 20161 votes

Try the website: op.gg

The Sword SaintJan 13, 20161 votes

It's for riven's who don't go the unlimited animation canceling route with hydra, or who want to double up on lifesteal.

xSleepyJan 13, 20161 votes

been thinking about it for the new champ, since it helps him mitigate burst damage (important for him as he is slow and squishy i believe) and since he won't get any attack speed the lifesteal component will be crucial for his sustainability. this is all just theory, mind you. i don't know for sure