Prioritizing ban rates is the new thing. It's also the wrong thing.

chipndip1··11 votes·7,736 views

Lately, since the turn of season 8 where Riot started to prioritize reworks, people have been justifying their disdain for a champion less via pick/win rates, which is what one would normally assume would dictate the general solo queue power level of a champion, and started basing their opinions more on ban rates instead...which objectively doesn't prove anything of value for champion power.

Like, if we're looking at someone like Lucian, who has a strong general win rate and massive play rate, indicating that a good deal of the population can find mileage on him, you can easily say the champion's overtuned for the solo queue environment. You can easily point to his stats and say "Hey, this champion needs to be nerfed. Any random schmuck can pick him up and he performs well into a ton of champs, even champs that should normally beat him".

But what if that champion performs less like Lucian and more like Trundle or Nasus (again, in solo queue, not the actual 5v5 competitive experience the game should be)? Then you can't look at win rate because they're getting bodied on the rift, and even if they're picked a good bit, that may show that the higher end of these players aren't doing poorly, but you can't totally prove that the champ's outright busted when you have poor (not just middling win rates, but straight poor) winrates coupled with high popularity. To boot, it also shows that, most likely, if you run into that champ in solo queue, you'll win that match more than you'll lose that match. The numbers won't tell why this is the case, but they do explain what's happening, which is that this champ isn't winning games.

So now we've come up to the 2018 scapegoat for wasting bans on solo queue's worst participants, which is ban rate. I've made a thread on this before, but to restate the point: Ban rate =/= champion power.

One more time now: Ban rate IS NOT champion power. Ban rate is simply a reflection of perception, and whether that perception is warranted or not isn't verified by just "citing the ban rate" and calling it a day.

So if I'm in a discussion with someone about a champion, and they're saying this champ is either too strong or too weak, a ban rate doesn't either prove nor disprove this argument. Like, if I say "Hey, Phreak is the fastest Rioter at Riot games" for a week before the big Rioter Race they hold a week before the big in-house League tournament, and I show off these photo shopped images of him running at Mach 3 to everyone in the building, and RedMercy comes up with a new League of Legends video about Phreak's high school track trophies, and PapaSmithy then shows up to the event and uses his ban on Phreak, no one can come up and say "Yeah, Phreak's the fastest at Riot. Look at that race they had where they banned him"...because he never participated to win or lose in the first place. This is the essence of champion bans. They don't make a case for how strong or weak a champion is. They disqualify a champion trial outright. You can't say "Yeah Irelia is super strong even though she's one of the lowest general win rate champs in the game. Look at her ban rate!". What you CAN say is "Yeah, Irelia may have a bad general win rate, but she's better balanced this way because people that master and climb with her still perform pretty well. Lolalytics shows a stat that states that the average for top rated Irelia mains is about a 53% win rate in Diamond 1." This would be a more informed way to convey the message people try to convey by shrugging off win rates for ban rates.

Someone that solely tries to utilize win rates to push an argument about champion power is shallow-minded, but someone that tries to use solely ban rates is even worse, because ban rates in and of themselves don't even prove or disprove anything outside of general discontent with the champ, regardless of if that discontent comes from champion power or other sources. If your point is "No one likes fighting this champ. Look at their ban rate", that's another topic...one I don't particularly care for myself, but I can't disqualify someone's personal disdain for a champion if it's so profound that it even overpowers their desire to ban actual threats to their odds of winning. This is me trying to set the record straight with this thread. If you're going to cite ban rates for why a champion is good or bad, I'm going to have to wholeheartedly ignore it. It's useless, anyway.

66 Comments

Tahminatrix 16 votes

Banrates atleast do help prove that a champion isn't fun to play against which is the most powerful thing to the vast majority of the player base, especially for those who play casually and just want to have a good time while playing a game.

We can all agree on what you said, but a high banrate champion does deserve some changes for the sake of both the people who want to play them and the people who don't want to play against them.

I don't think riot will be focused on changing champions based on actual balance until the patches start leaning towards competitive play again or when preseason ends.

D357R0Y3R12 votes

Ban rate is a good indicator of what is balanced and what is not

Only in high elo where people ban the best

AirKingNeo3 votes

yeah but that number is still skewed by annoyance, so that's why pickrate is more reliable

D357R0Y3R10 votes

you know when I talk about high elo, I mean d1/master/grandmaster/challenger games

right there, champion ban is not the same than plat or diamond at all

in plat/low diamond, you get Yasuo Darius Zed Jax ban and insert all low elo champions

in d1+ you get suddenly Galio Lissandra

so if D1+ player permaban galio and lissandra, maybe just maybe that means there is a problem with those champions right now

also, reading the boards just prove that nobody complains about those champions they complain about graves, when THE graves player of EUW (tynx) stopped playing him instead, kha is permabanned in high elo AND PRO PLAY

and once again nobody complains about kha'zix, instead we have people complaining about FUCKING KAYN

and i've seen 3 posts about Zyra

Zyra being good in 2k19. ok

Flawless Fetus5 votes

Nah. Ban rate is a good indicator of what people like to face. Nothing at all to do with balance. Akalis winrate is low 40s, but her banrate is high. Objectively, the team that has akali is more likely to lose. People still ban her, though - because they dont want to face her. Bans have no indication of power at all except for the highest of elos.

BestPudgeNA3 votes

[{quoted}](name=BIended Fetus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cQ1r5c0y,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-12-28T01:42:18.746+0000)

Nah. Ban rate is a good indicator of what people like to face. Nothing at all to do with balance. Akalis winrate is low 40s, but her banrate is high. Objectively, the team that has akali is more likely to lose. People still ban her, though - because they dont want to face her. Bans have no indication of power at all except for the highest of elos.

Akali is still 80%ish pick/ban in KeSPA cup which is a bunch of LCK teams playing on 8.24b. She still fucking broken OP. The fact she has 45% win rate while broken shows how fucking meaningless win rate is.

chipndip13 votes

{quoted}

Akali is still 80%ish pick/ban in KeSPA cup which is a bunch of LCK teams playing on 8.24b. She still fucking broken OP. The fact she has 45% win rate while broken shows how fucking meaningless win rate is.

Unlike fighting games and shooters, pro games in a MOBA only have marginal correlation to solo queue experiences. There's too much randomness when it comes to your teammates, and being unable to communicate and coordinate means some champs, like Akali, solo lane tanks, Azir, Ryze, and so on, aren't going to do well in solo queue unless they're overtuned for the game at large.

Meanwhile, super straight forward/cheesy champs like Jax, Sona, stealth champions, and things like that will do much better in solo queue while being outright garbage champions for the game at large.

The hard part of it is deciding what's important between being balanced for League in the objective sense or being balanced for solo queue in League.

BestPudgeNA3 votes

{quoted}

Unlike fighting games and shooters, pro games in a MOBA only have marginal correlation to solo queue experiences. There's too much randomness when it comes to your teammates, and being unable to communicate and coordinate means some champs, like Akali, solo lane tanks, Azir, Ryze, and so on, aren't going to do well in solo queue unless they're overtuned for the game at large.

Meanwhile, super straight forward/cheesy champs like Jax, Sona, stealth champions, and things like that will do much better in solo queue while being outright garbage champions for the game at large.

The hard part of it is deciding what's important between being balanced for League in the objective sense or being balanced for solo queue in League.

Problem is Akali doesn't fall into the category of "better with communication and coordination." She falls into the category not being bad at playing the champ. She's not balanced in solo Q. The only "high elo" player that thinks she weak is Blade and he is obviously biased on the subject

Flawless Fetus1 votes

I'm glad you agree with me. Like I said, at the highest points of play, ban rate is a viable indication of power. That being said, the game the LCK teams are playing is vastly different from the game you and I are playing. Lol. It's like comparing a pickup game of basketball to the Golden State Warriors. For our elo's, our random teammates, our pickup-like gameplay, etc, Akali is hot garbage. Her ban rate is still high even in low elo solo/duo, but the team that has her is - objectively - more likely to lose than the team that doesn't have her. She sucks in "regular" or "popular" or "non-pro" gameplay, regardless of whether you, I, or anyone else wants to face her. Lol.

BestPudgeNA3 votes

[{quoted}](name=BIended Fetus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cQ1r5c0y,comment-id=0000000100000001,timestamp=2018-12-28T10:49:46.706+0000)

I'm glad you agree with me. Like I said, at the highest points of play, ban rate is a viable indication of power. That being said, the game the LCK teams are playing is vastly different from the game you and I are playing. Lol. It's like comparing a pickup game of basketball to the Golden State Warriors. For our elo's, our random teammates, our pickup-like gameplay, etc, Akali is hot garbage. Her ban rate is still high even in low elo solo/duo, but the team that has her is - objectively - more likely to lose than the team that doesn't have her. She sucks in "regular" or "popular" or "non-pro" gameplay, regardless of whether you, I, or anyone else wants to face her. Lol.

Nah man She is really really fucking OP if you run across someone that can play her even in gold.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

Nah man She is really really fucking OP if you run across someone that can play her even in gold.

By that logic, you'd say the same for Teemo and Kayle...and at that point you'd say that about everyone in the game.

Flawless Fetus1 votes

No one who "can play" any champ is in gold. Lol.

Mordepool8 votes

Banrate has a correlation to the champions lack of counterplay ( percieved or otherwise) and overall agency when facing them.

chipndip16 votes

{quoted}

Banrate has a correlation to the champions lack of counterplay ( percieved or otherwise) and overall agency when facing them.

No it doesn't.

Mordepool10 votes

{quoted}

No it doesn't.

It does. Your obstinance prevents you from seeing it. Thats ok. You do you.

chipndip16 votes

{quoted}

It does. Your obstinance prevents you fron seeing it. Thats ok. You do you.

If it had a correlation to lack of counter-play, prove it.

You don't get to make a claim without some sort of back-up to that claim. Prove that high ban rates have a correlation to existent or non-existent counter-play.

Mordepool8 votes

{quoted}

If it had a correlation to lack of counter-play, prove it.

You don't get to make a claim without some sort of back-up to that claim. Prove that high ban rates have a correlation to existent or non-existent counter-play.

Percieved counterplay.

For evidence i submit season7(iirc) Riot nerfs Yasou after years of outcry. His Ban rate did not decrease whatsoever. People hate playing against since they believed he denied them agency and lacked counterplay.

I won't discuss this topic further with you. You seem very closed-minded.

chipndip14 votes

{quoted}

Percieved counterplay.

For evidence i submit season7(iirc) Riot nerfs Yasou after years of outcry. His Ban rate did not decrease whatsoever. People hate playing against since they believed he denied them agency and lacked counterplay.

You didn't say "perceived". You just said "counter-play and the enemy's lack of agency", which isn't true. You can't just move the goal post and then blame me for being close-minded.

And, like I said in the post, if I ban someone from the game because of how I feel, that has nothing to do with what's actually true. How fast I think Phreak is and how fast Phreak actually is are two different things. Likewise, how much agency a high ban rate champ actually provides their opponents vs. how much you THINK they do are, again, two different things.

I won't discuss this topic further with you. You seem very closed-minded.

You're free to do whatever, but do note that you trying to switch up your argument half-way in since you were asked to prove your own claim is just readily apparent for anyone to read.

Mordepool6 votes

{quoted}

You didn't say "perceived". You just said "counter-play and the enemy's lack of agency", which isn't true.

Lol wow you clearly didnt read my original post. I reccommend you read what people say before arguing a topic.

if I ban someone from the game because of how I feel, that has nothing to do with what's actually true.

Feelings are based in personal experience. People often draw the wrong conclusion, but it can be indicative of a Problem.

You're free to do whatever, but do note that you trying to switch up your argument half-way in since you were asked to prove your own claim is just readily apparent for anyone to read.

Lol Hahahahahaha WOW. Just as i thought.

saltran5 votes

Banrate on high elo and pro play do matter

Sire Hippington5 votes

Most of the time, banrates are used when people complain about champions beeinf unfun, or not FEELING fair to face regardless of actuall power, and for that purpose ban-rates do tell alot. If a champ like yasuo or akali that statistically are by far not over performing still get huge ban numbers, then there must be something wrong about their design that makes them inherently unfun to face even if they aren't objectively powerfull. High banrates don't say much about power(exept for very high elos), but they **do **indicate that certain champs are problematic in some way.

Tomoe Gozen3 votes

I feel sorry for you OP, this looks like a perfectly crafted wall of text to make a good argument but people who'll want to complain will continue to do so, while ignoring this and upvoting "le dis X is many ban, Rito nerf ban champ".

DrCyanide1 votes

I think where you and the OP both go wrong is assuming that the changes people who cite ban rates are looking for are "nerfs". They're looking for a different experience when playing against that Champion, an experience that feels better to play, regardless of if you end up winning or losing the game. That change could be a net buff to the champion, so long as it changes a pain point.

IP Masquerena2 votes

Nah, it's not that. Might be for you, and it's cool, it's similar for me as well, but for other players, aka, the majority, they want to win, not to play fair. Noone on the boards who cried about Akali ever thought of giving her compensation buffs for the nerfs they wanted to give her W, which kinda proves my point.

What I mean with that is that many players want the game to "feel" fair, not to be fair, what they actually want is to win regardless of the way they play. I made a thread on this once, and here's a quote from it:

"Considering that most players in lower elos have a mentality set in stone that is in the lines of the following 3 aspects, we can make some conclusions, but first, the 3 aspects: (Those 3 aspects are taken by considering all players in the match are overall the same skill, as a player, as we can't know someone's skill on the champ correctly, so keep that in mind)

  • Enemy player has a bad game? LuL, you suck, I got zkillz
  • Ally player has a bad game? Reprot, noob lost me game
  • Player himself has a bad game? Reprot my team, noobs don't help (they got no reply for when being outplayed, as they can never be outplayed, either the enemy is hacking, or the allies int)

Now, why a player has a bad game is something that's game to game basis, maybe tilt that didn't wear off from a previous game even tho a break was taken (guilt of that), unknown match-up or faced with a good player in a match-up you used to win until that point, lack of knowing how to play when behind on certain champs (guilty of that), playing a champ you are not 100% confident on because your main was banned, being camped, having a bad game due to an ally suffering of the above, got outplayed, and many others (screw that, I'm guilty of all of the above).

Why did I went on and said all that? To make it easier to understand what type of balance the majority of the player base wants: they (the majority) want to do the same things every game they always did, regardless of the way their team performs, and win. Many say they want a fair game, but most want a fair game where THEY win, not just to play a fair game."

(The typos are intended, and here's the thread if you want to read it: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2LkJ67zM-discussion-does-your-rank-matter-when-talking-game-balance )

DrCyanide1 votes

If people only cared about winning they'd be clambering for nerfs to high win rate champions like Sona (53.7%), Nami (52.5%), and Soraka (52.2%). And yet they don't ban them nor cry for their nerfs. These champions are beating them, but they're doing so in a way that feels more fair to the average player. According to League of Graphs, reworked Akali has always been under a 50% win rate, so her drawing bans isn't about winning, it's about how the game feels while playing.

All the threads I've poked my head in on Akali for prior patches have said "that nerf you gave missed the mark, you need to change the shroud." It's not a coincidence that it took them changing the shroud for people to stop banning her as often.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

If people only cared about winning they'd be clambering for nerfs to high win rate champions like Sona (53.7%), Nami (52.5%), and Soraka (52.2%). And yet they don't ban them nor cry for their nerfs. These champions are beating them, but they're doing so in a way that feels more fair to the average player.

But like this thread is stating, that argument, although that literally is what people do on a regular basis, is not based on the reality of the situation. The reality of the situation is that every person that bans something like Irelia or Akali in any elo below Diamond (or even Masters+ at this point) is actually harming their own odds of winning by reducing the odds of freelo champs appearing on the enemy team.

Despite this, Irelia and Akali don't FEEL like free wins, especially when you occasionally drop games against them, and that drives people to ban them. Meanwhile, Sona has and still feels like the shittiest champion in this game...and she is...but not in solo queue. Her low popularity on top of her negative stigma allows people to 1-trick and climb with her while remaining under the radar for lengthy periods before Riot even considers nerfing her, but she's blatantly overtuned for solo queue almost constantly.

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

Pretty much. Perception runs rampant in players' minds, so much so that Akali is a universally hated champion, despite not having the best performance outside of high ELO. And this perception is even more skewed with people instabanning her, while they don't know her weaknesses that can be exploited, then in one game Akali passes through and a player with medicore skill suddenly overtakes it.

People then reaffirm their false believes that Akali is broken because of a single bad game and they keep perpetuating this belief as if it's a fact. And since it's easier to complain on the boards to Riot that literally a single champion "hasn't come out balanced" and that "balance team doesn't know their left from right", you can imagine just how much drive these players actually have to improve on their shortcomings. Everyone is under the belief that they're good and that if they lose to something, it's because that other thing is broken or their team simply incompetent.

Meany Sting3 votes

Ban rates are indicative of strenght and or lack of counter play. I know two people who keep permanently banning yasuo in every game simply as he counters majority of their roster picks or they simply hate it 1 of them is lux main who also plays syndra and twisted fate mid which leaves every pick a hard matchup for him. The second player is actually diamond just like me, he plays zed kata and Lb, but he bans yasuo simply due to yasuo carry potential. He knows losing lane even if he is favourable, most likely loses him game as yasuo snowballs hard,and he gets tired of micro management of all the fast plays vs yasuo. He would rather play vs OP galio as LB then yasuo.

My point? some hight ban rate champions are banned for reasons which are are not connected to win rate or their strenght, but due to stress, and in some cases feeling of helplessness when facing them . In such cases like yasuo he hard counters many mid laners and as such is hated more then his actual strenght.

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Meany Sting,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cQ1r5c0y,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-12-28T09:04:48.463+0000)

Ban rates are indicative of strenght and or lack of counter play.

I read the whole post, despite me cutting the quote to the first sentence.

The issue I have with the post is that you say this line, then proceed to say things that have nothing to do with Yasuo's power level in solo queue. Him being a hard lane for Lux and Twisted Fate (which this IS true and a Lux/TF main probs should ban Yasuo since he's a popular champion and he's strong into these champs) doesn't mean he's just a super strong mid laner with no counter-play. It ALSO doesn't mean that everyone that bans him is countered by him. Like, realistically thinking, if this was true, he'd see A TON of pro play because mages are NEVER out of flavor in that realm, and apparently Yasuo counters all mages...but this isn't true, so that doesn't happen.

Also, your post does this weird thing of contradicting itself in the last paragraph. Regardless, I can easily meet your friends halfway when I say that they probs should be banning Yasuo due to how bad the match-up is for them.

Meany Sting1 votes

Well one of them, bans yasuo because yasuo counters his mains. The 2nd friend really has good matchup vs yasuo. And the reason is a slip up vs yasuo can be punished and snowball into yasuos lead easier then say velkoz mid. The 2nd friend who I disagree with has no objective reason to ban yasuo, statistically he has a bigger chance to win lane and game vs yasuo than a galio or lissandra or velkoz. He still does do to a factor that does not correlate to win rate. More snowbally camps are more likely to be banned, even when not oppressive. Whichecking ussualy ban rate represents better then pick rate or win rate

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Meany Sting,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cQ1r5c0y,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2018-12-28T18:24:07.770+0000)

Well one of them, bans yasuo because yasuo counters his mains. The 2nd friend really has good matchup vs yasuo. And the reason is a slip up vs yasuo can be punished and snowball into yasuos lead easier then say velkoz mid. The 2nd friend who I disagree with has no objective reason to ban yasuo, statistically he has a bigger chance to win lane and game vs yasuo than a galio or lissandra or velkoz. He still does do to a factor that does not correlate to win rate. More snowbally camps are more likely to be banned, even when not oppressive. Whichecking ussualy ban rate represents better then pick rate or win rate

But it's not a design flaw or a game issue to have carry champions that snowball and win games. All of this really just boils down to perception. It feels bad to get snowballed on, but as much as you can ban Yasuo, you can also learn the match-up and devise ways to not need to. People just choose not to.

Dracocrash3 votes

Most of the time the arguments behind ban rates are pretty solid though. A champion has a high ban rate,, because the community hates playing against it. That is an undeniable FACT.

Why does the community hate playing against something? Poor design? OP? Gives the enemy no agency? Overtuned CC? who knows. Probably a good reason though.

Hügö2 votes

Stoped reading after the first sentence. WIn and pickrate combined is an indicator for how strong a champion is where you, as a dev, should look for nerfs. Banrate on the other side is the perfect indicator of how accepted the champion is from the playerbase. A champion with an over 50% winrate but with a low pick/winrate is not overpowered, but the playerbase doesn't want to play against it. You, as a dev, should then look into solutions how to change the champion that it gets accepted by the playerbase.

Terchio1 votes

But what if that champion performs less like Lucian and more like Trundle or Nasus

Trundle and Nasus are not in the same boat.

Trundle is low all-around, PR/BR and WR. He is one of those that feels abandoned.

Nasus has a respectable WR, mid-high PR, but mid-low BR. He would be one of those all-arounder champions who feels like you can potentially outplay it, like a Fiora, with probably more power than the ban-rate shows. Nasus usually hangs in there because of the special 1v1 utility he possesses, thereby being a threat much of the game, but then being tanky enough to run it with limited influence from the enemy team, almost like the old Poppy ult was designed to do. At least old Poppy Ult didn't CC and couldn't be chained endlessly with nearly zero cooldown between uses. This level of cheese has left him in a limbo where he's monstrous when teams have bad positioning, but absolutely devastating when positioned well.

Overall, though, I'm not understanding the comparison between Lucian Trundle Nasus . They don't even have similar Ban-Rates.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Trundle and Nasus are not in the same boat.

Trundle is low all-around, PR/BR and WR. He is one of those that feels abandoned.

Nasus has a respectable WR, mid-high PR, but mid-low BR. He would be one of those all-arounder champions who feels like you can potentially outplay it, like a Fiora, with probably more power than the ban-rate shows. Nasus usually hangs in there because of the special 1v1 utility he possesses, thereby being a threat much of the game, but then being tanky enough to run it with limited influence from the enemy team, almost like the old Poppy ult was designed to do. At least old Poppy Ult didn't CC and couldn't be chained endlessly with nearly zero cooldown between uses. This level of cheese has left him in a limbo where he's monstrous when teams have bad positioning, but absolutely devastating when positioned well.

Overall, though, I'm not understanding the comparison between Lucian Trundle Nasus . They don't even have similar Ban-Rates.

I mean, I looked up the lowest win rate champs in Diamond+ on lolalytics when writing that part and Trundle and Nasus are pretty damn bad. Also, I didn't say Trundle and Nasus had high ban rates. I said when someone's WIN rate looks like Trundle's or Nasus's, then they turn to high ban rates to make their point.

Terchio2 votes

Well... Nasus has a notably higher ban rate than Trundle... I'd also wager Trundle needs more help in general. Ban rate feels legit to me in this case. I don't really get the "What if he were banned more?" argument. Neither one is that strong statistically, so clearly they aren't going to get banned more, and there will be lesser need of nerfs.

There are legitimate cases where ban rates don't coincide perfectly, but those 3 are some of the worst examples there are. There are also plenty of good reasons why any specific statistics aren't necessarily 100% valid. Win rate is actually amongst the worst when taken alone. Half of the highest ban rates in the game are losing winrates in Diamond+ Akali Irelia Yasuo Neeko Pyke I'd hope you don't think that list of champions is undertuned or deserving of a buff.

Edit: Meanwhile, the 10 lowest ban rate champs? Sejuani Ashe Corki Jinx Kalista Kayle KogMaw Maokai Shen Shyvana 7 of 10 have a winning record on win-rate. I'd also hope you don't think this list features the overtuned champions, because win-rate would have you believing it.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Well... Nasus has a notably higher ban rate than Trundle... I'd also wager Trundle needs more help in general. Ban rate feels legit to me in this case. I don't really get the "What if he were banned more?" argument. Neither one is that strong statistically, so clearly they aren't going to get banned more, and there will be lesser need of nerfs.

There are legitimate cases where ban rates don't coincide perfectly, but those 3 are some of the worst examples there are. There are also plenty of good reasons why any specific statistics aren't necessarily 100% valid. Win rate is actually amongst the worst when taken alone. Half of the highest ban rates in the game are losing winrates in Diamond+ Akali Irelia Yasuo Neeko Pyke I'd hope you don't think that list of champions is undertuned or deserving of a buff.

No.

But ask me if I think they're "oppressive" or "deserving of nerfs/50%+ ban rates". I'd also say no...well, I'm not sure either way on Neeko.

Edit: Meanwhile, the 10 lowest ban rate champs? Sejuani Ashe Corki Jinx Kalista Kayle KogMaw Maokai Shen Shyvana 7 of 10 have a winning record on win-rate. I'd also hope you don't think this list features the overtuned champions, because win-rate would have you believing it.

Why are you trying to draw conclusions on champion power through ban rates to begin with?

Like, I'd say Jinx has been a pushover for about 3 years now in bot lane. Sejuani's supposed to be in the works to improve her solo queue (or it already happened...they keep dropping and pulling the changes so I don't know anymore), but she was a coordinated play monster since her class rework. Shyvanna's a joke of a champion. Corki is absolutely oppressive if he isn't garbage. Shen's generally fine. Maokai's..."eh". Kalista's a hot mess no matter if she's strong or weak. Kog'Maw's a hot mess, too. Kayle's to be VGU'd in a minute.

I'm not looking at ban rates to form that opinion, though. Ban rates would say that these are all "totally healthy champions". This is not the case.

Terchio1 votes

Ban rates do not say these are all "totally healthy champions". This would be the 10 highest and 10 lowest banrates. The first list would be potentially over-tuned champions, the second list potentially under-tuned. Win rate would put most of the first list into the second list, and vice versa.

I'm not saying any of them are necessarily a hot mess enough to drop them off the server until hotfixed, but I'd like to know how far off the 2 lists feel? Neeko is a bit of a wildcard, but the rest feel like they fit where they belong, do they not? We're talking about 7 on the second list being notably better than 50% WR, not in any way needing help, they're holding their own on the rift without issues. Does that even slightly feel right? I sure don't think so.

For instance, you know what you'd see if Winrate was the bar? Mordekaiser Sona Shaco Galio Vi Fizz Udyr Warwick Quinn Khazix . Yeah, this would be the stomping grounds champions, far more overpowered than any of the 5 in my first list. There are some that belong, sure, but many of those have been all but abandoned except by one-tricks who find their way around the champs' immobility or janky power scheme, possibly with the help of a well-coordinated duo.

The bottom of the pit looks better, but still rounding out the bottom 10 would be Akali Irelia . Like they're in the top 10 champions asking for a buff.

chipndip11 votes

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Ban rates do not say these are all "totally healthy champions". This would be the 10 highest and 10 lowest banrates. The first list would be potentially over-tuned champions, the second list potentially under-tuned.

Even that is a faulty conclusion, because bans don't suggest that, either. Like, you keep forgetting that a general win rate indicates how much a champion can be picked up to win a game, mains or otherwise. A ban rate literally doesn't tell you anything about champion power, but it does speak on community perception of champion power, which may or may not be accurate. A banned champ doesn't have a trial to draw a conclusion from in the first place.

I'm not saying any of them are necessarily a hot mess enough to drop them off the server until hotfixed, but I'd like to know how far off the 2 lists feel? Neeko is a bit of a wildcard, but the rest feel like they fit where they belong, do they not? We're talking about 7 on the second list being notably better than 50% WR, not in any way needing help, they're holding their own on the rift without issues. Does that even slightly feel right? I sure don't think so.

Here's the thing: There's good reason why many of those on the second list are there. They're way too good when they get good or they're in dire need of a game play update like Kayle and Shyvanna. Only Shen and Maokai really speak for champs that are "just doing aight" right now without any major concerns of becoming too overbearing.

For instance, you know what you'd see if Winrate was the bar? Mordekaiser Sona Shaco Galio Vi Fizz Udyr Warwick Quinn Khazix . Yeah, this would be the stomping grounds champions, far more overpowered than any of the 5 in my first list. There are some that belong, sure, but many of those have been all but abandoned except by one-tricks who find their way around the champs' immobility or janky power scheme, possibly with the help of a well-coordinated duo.

Just cause a champ isn't popular doesn't mean they can't get nerfed. We don't balance around a popularity contest. Shaco especially should have been dealt with ages ago. Not saying every champ with an impressive win rate should be slammed on, but I ain't looking at ban rates to guide my decision in that matter because they'll only tell me who the community doesn't like, not what is actually strong. Otherwise, Shaco would have been on your first list of champs for nearly everyone in the community.

The bottom of the pit looks better, but still rounding out the bottom 10 would be Akali Irelia . Like they're in the top 10 champions asking for a buff.

Because they aren't top ten in anything but bans. Irelia doesn't really need a buff, but Akali has seen nothing but nerfs with 0 compensation since she came out, and she's been hard to get mileage on in solo queue...since she came out. Who wouldn't ask for buffs if you're not some high Diamond Akali 1-trick?

What Akali would really need are changes that lower the delta between "good" and "great" Akalis, because right now there's fewer great Akalis than I have phalanges (that's 20). That's the type of changes people should be advocating for in her regard.

Terchio1 votes

You just keep making excuses, as though they mean anything.

Banned champs are more similar to problem champs than high Win Percentage champs. It's been that way forever. I don't think Lee Sin has ever had a positive Win Rate, and there's no question he was more OP for much of his lifetime. His popularity and general utility made him a popular pick, regardless of actual power, and he's probably always going to have a negative WR, no matter his power level. That doesn't have much to do with his kit being broken in some fashion, that's his play rate increasing substancially, which means the one-tricks and players that pick him as a counter are thinned out in overall ratio to the noob first-timers who don't understand his mechanics thoroughly, because they're rampant and stick with the "safe pick". It doesn't help that he has a higher skill ceiling than most.

I don't understand your Shaco excuse. I think it boils down to win rate rules all, once again. Ban Rate is simply better, though not at all perfect. Shaco and Udyr are only problems right now because bullying the jungle is becoming more prominent, and both happen to be boasting high(ish) WR and BR, which is actually the magic combo. You really shouldn't be boasting OPness without both WR and BR considered. But if you picked either, BR is simply closer to accurate. Too many people pick high ban-rate champs because they're available and tank that champion's stats as a whole. Too many Yasuo players get banned half of the time, and then get over-picked by the enemy team (or even their own team), and then can't show off their one-trick stats as heavily as a non-popular champion. It's simply the nature of the game.

And if a champion was actually legitimately losing... As in not picked only in non-ban situations... they would no longer be banned. The banned champions are banned for a reason. The ones that continue to have a high WR are simply easier to exploit without skill. No, Akali and Irelia are not 2 of the worst 10 champions in the game because their Win Rates are down in the bottom 10. Yes, their Win Rates are down there. Their Win Rates are lower than ANY of the 10 lowest ban rates with the only exception being Sejuani . If these other champions are purposely gutted to uselessness, how are Akali and Irelia doing worse? (remember, Win Rate is your gauge, not mine).

Please don't tell me you think Akali and Irelia are really doing that bad.

chipndip11 votes

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You just keep making excuses, as though they mean anything.

How about this: What about anyone's ban rate proves anything about that champ?

You're saying that ban rate is a stronger indication of champion strength than win rate. Prove it. How? What empirical evidence can you draw from a high ban rate? There's a reason I included that rant about Phreak being banned from the "big Riot race". It's to emphasize the fact that it is impossible to gather a conclusion without a trial. A ban is literally the denial of a trial. There is no performance in a ban to draw a conclusion from, and that's why ban rate is the worst indicator for champion strength/weakness in solo queue.

Now, there are nuances to ban rates where you could legitimize their importance, but that's largely for organized/pro play, since pros are pushed to pick/ban things that give them the absolute highest chances of winning, and play in an environment where they're constantly practicing high win rate strategies as a group. For them, they'll be banning out the same champions they'll be picking if they weren't banned, which then pushes the significance of ban rates towards the significance of pick rates. That still doesn't mean the champion in question would have won or lost that match, but it does speak on the presence of that champ in the event. It isn't a direct commentary on performance. It's an ode to presence. How much competing teams fear that champion showing up, which is more an indirect nod to the strength of that champ. This, however, really only applies to organized play.

For solo queue, this element to ban rates doesn't necessarily exist. Or rather, it might exist in some small form for some people, but due to the difference between pro play and solo queue play, expectations and reality don't add up, so often times bans go on things you don't need to ban while things that will most likely steal games go under the radar due to perceived power. This is why certain champs just stay perma-banned. Yasuo and Zed are champs that will never stop topping the ban charts because they always FEEL strong. I can make threads till my fingers bleed on the keys and there's always gonna be some stubborn Lux player that just WILL NOT budge on thinking Yasuo's op. IS HE? Not really. Is he gonna stop being one of the highest ban rate champs in the game? Literally never.

Think of it like this: If we're in the LCS, and I show up and win 10 games in a row on Sona, do you think people WON'T investigate pick/banning Sona for themselves? They obviously would, even if they just target banned me specifically, like how they target banned Heimerdinger against G2's Hjarnann. However, in solo queue, a champ like Shaco is just stealing elo for the Plat/Diamond elo range and he has a decent chance of showing up. It's not a 20% pick rate, but it's not like's scarce at all, either. Why the hell aren't we banning Shaco? Because he doesn't LOOK strong cause all he does is throw a stupid knife and auto-attack people. Meanwhile people ban champs that aren't strong in that elo range because they're strong in elo ranges/environments that don't even mater to them, like Akali and Irelia.

Please don't tell me you think Akali and Irelia are really doing that bad.

I already said what I thought on both champs. Irelia's doing relatively fine even now and Akali needs changes to decrease the delta between the best Akali players and literally almost the entire population of League of Legends. I'm not using ban rates to justify that opinion though.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

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Lately, since the turn of season 8 where Riot started to prioritize reworks, people have been justifying their disdain for a champion less via pick/win rates, which is what one would normally assume would dictate the general solo queue power level of a champion, and started basing their opinions more on ban rates instead...which objectively doesn't prove anything of value for champion power.

Like, if we're looking at someone like Lucian, who has a strong general win rate and massive play rate, indicating that a good deal of the population can find mileage on him, you can easily say the champion's overtuned for the solo queue environment. You can easily point to his stats and say "Hey, this champion needs to be nerfed. Any random schmuck can pick him up and he performs well into a ton of champs, even champs that should normally beat him".

But what if that champion performs less like Lucian and more like Trundle or Nasus (again, in solo queue, not the actual 5v5 competitive experience the game should be)? Then you can't look at win rate because they're getting bodied on the rift, and even if they're picked a good bit, that may show that the higher end of these players aren't doing poorly, but you can't totally prove that the champ's outright busted when you have poor (not just middling win rates, but straight poor) winrates coupled with high popularity. To boot, it also shows that, most likely, if you run into that champ in solo queue, you'll win that match more than you'll lose that match. The numbers won't tell why this is the case, but they do explain what's happening, which is that this champ isn't winning games.

So now we've come up to the 2018 scapegoat for wasting bans on solo queue's worst participants, which is ban rate. I've made a thread on this before, but to restate the point: Ban rate =/= champion power.

One more time now: Ban rate IS NOT champion power. Ban rate is simply a reflection of perception, and whether that perception is warranted or not isn't verified by just "citing the ban rate" and calling it a day.

So if I'm in a discussion with someone about a champion, and they're saying this champ is either too strong or too weak, a ban rate doesn't either prove nor disprove this argument. Like, if I say "Hey, Phreak is the fastest Rioter at Riot games" for a week before the big Rioter Race they hold a week before the big in-house League tournament, and I show off these photo shopped images of him running at Mach 3 to everyone in the building, and RedMercy comes up with a new League of Legends video about Phreak's high school track trophies, and PapaSmithy then shows up to the event and uses his ban on Phreak, no one can come up and say "Yeah, Phreak's the fastest at Riot. Look at that race they had where they banned him"...because he never participated to win or lose in the first place. This is the essence of champion bans. They don't make a case for how strong or weak a champion is. They disqualify a champion trial outright. You can't say "Yeah Irelia is super strong even though she's one of the lowest general win rate champs in the game. Look at her ban rate!". What you CAN say is "Yeah, Irelia may have a bad general win rate, but she's better balanced this way because people that master and climb with her still perform pretty well. Lolalytics shows a stat that states that the average for top rated Irelia mains is about a 53% win rate in Diamond 1." This would be a more informed way to convey the message people try to convey by shrugging off win rates for ban rates.

Someone that solely tries to utilize win rates to push an argument about champion power is shallow-minded, but someone that tries to use solely ban rates is even worse, because ban rates in and of themselves don't even prove or disprove anything outside of general discontent with the champ, regardless of if that discontent comes from champion power or other sources. If your point is "No one likes fighting this champ. Look at their ban rate", that's another topic...one I don't particularly care for myself, but I can't disqualify someone's personal disdain for a champion if it's so profound that it even overpowers their desire to ban actual threats to their odds of winning. This is me trying to set the record straight with this thread. If you're going to cite ban rates for why a champion is good or bad, I'm going to have to wholeheartedly ignore it. It's useless, anyway.

As someone who bans Champions that I perceive as strong and/or unfun to play against (and there really should be no other reason to ban a Champion...), A champion having a high ban rate indicates that many people agree with the point I'm making that this champion should be nerfed.

Champions that are unfun to play against should be nerfed. EVEN IF they're under a 50% win rate. The Champions should generally be unviable until riot can rework them into something that isn't so unbearable that they need to get banned in over 40% of games played because no one wants to deal with their bull-shit kits.

The alternative is that they're strong, and obviously need nerfs.

In either case: high ban rate -> deserves a nerf is a logical argument.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

As someone who bans Champions that I perceive as strong and/or unfun to play against (and there really should be no other reason to ban a Champion...), A champion having a high ban rate indicates that many people agree with the point I'm making that this champion should be nerfed.

Champions that are unfun to play against should be nerfed. EVEN IF they're under a 50% win rate. The Champions should generally be unviable until riot can rework them into something that isn't so unbearable that they need to get banned in over 40% of games played because no one wants to deal with their bull-shit kits.

The alternative is that they're strong, and obviously need nerfs.

In either case: high ban rate -> deserves a nerf is a logical argument.

You don't make a champion more fun to deal with by nerfing them. If a champ has a high ban rate, but they're generally balanced for the game, you can't support nerfing the champion, period. Balance changes aren't for your fun in and of themselves. It's for the balance of the game, which in turn should boost your fun.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

You don't make a champion more fun to deal with by nerfing them. If a champ has a high ban rate, but they're generally balanced for the game, you can't support nerfing the champion, period. Balance changes aren't for your fun in and of themselves. It's for the balance of the game, which in turn should boost your fun.

I explicitly said they should be unviable until riot reworks them into something that isn't so unbearable...

I stand by that. No, it doesn't make them more fun to deal with. It makes them no longer necessary to deal with.

It's annoying as hell to have to deal with these Champions almost every game they're not banned, AND to lose to them about half the time.

It's not a big deal at all to deal with them in 2% of your games because some people still occasionally play them when they're at a 35-40% win rate, and to have a great chance at winning those games. I'll gladly accept the odd game against a cancer champion if it's more likely to be a win and it's not a regular occurrence.

So yes, I can, and did, support nerfing the champion.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

I explicitly said they should be unviable until riot reworks them into something that isn't so unbearable...

Riot got massive flack for doing that in the past, and still do. It's a horrible way to go about balancing champions and is often used as a last resort for when champions are explicit balancing issues, not just when they're annoying to deal with.

LeBlanc is annoying. Vlad is annoying. Brand is annoying. A lot of champs are "annoying". Doesn't really mean anything for the grand scheme of things, and if you support this notion for these champs, what's the course of action if this ever happens to your champ? "Oh well"?

It's annoying as hell to have to deal with these Champions almost every game they're not banned, AND to lose to them about half the time.

It is statistically proven that almost the entire player base wins well over half the time against some of the champs that are subject to constantly high ban rates. Yasuo has a weird thing where he's bad in Iron/Bronze, good in Silver/Gold, and then people learn how to play in Plat+ and he falls back down a bit again, but not as bad as Iron/Bronze, so he's a different case, but the point stands that a lot of this is largely perception.

It's not a big deal at all to deal with them in 2% of your games because some people still occasionally play them when they're at a 35-40% win rate, and to have a great chance at winning those games. I'll gladly accept the odd game against a cancer champion if it's more likely to be a win and it's not a regular occurrence.

That is already the case with some of these champs.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

Riot got massive flack for doing that in the past, and still do. It's a horrible way to go about balancing champions and is often used as a last resort for when champions are explicit balancing issues, not just when they're annoying to deal with.

LeBlanc is annoying. Vlad is annoying. Brand is annoying. A lot of champs are "annoying". Doesn't really mean anything for the grand scheme of things, and if you support this notion for these champs, what's the course of action if this ever happens to your champ? "Oh well"?

It is statistically proven that almost the entire player base wins well over half the time against some of the champs that are subject to constantly high ban rates. Yasuo has a weird thing where he's bad in Iron/Bronze, good in Silver/Gold, and then people learn how to play in Plat+ and he falls back down a bit again, but not as bad as Iron/Bronze, so he's a different case, but the point stands that a lot of this is largely perception.

That is already the case with some of these champs.

Do Vlad or Brand have a 40%+ ban rate?

I didn't think so.

I doubt LeBlanc even does...

We're talking about the Akali's and Yasuo's of the game.

If it ever happens to "my champ"? I would argue that I've picked my champions for it not to happen. My champions shouldn't see a 10% ban rate, let alone a 40% one. When Ahri was super OP after her rework and banned a lot? I either played different roles or didn't play. And that wasn't a problem with her kit, it was a problem with her numbers and people not knowing that chasing an Ahri when she was reworked to a kite mage was as bad an idea as chasing a Singed...

People who picked Yasuo did so knowing he sees a lot of bans and obviously need to be able to play other stuff because he's banned half the time. Same with akali, except she was reworked so it's not really their fault.

IP Masquerena1 votes

Ok, let's say you nerf them to 30% winrate, then what? As you said, some people will still play them and the champ will be an almost instant loss, so they will still maintain a high ban rate because don't want them on their team either. Then what? Nerf them even more? That will only reinforce the "nerf them just in case so they don't get picked on my team" mentality.

But let's assume that what you want happens and their ban rate sink, other champs will take their place. Zed's at already a 30%+ ban rate yet all Zed mains call him weak when he's only weak in super high elo, but quite strong in general play, but w/e. He will then shoot to 50-60% ban rate, gut him too?

Then who's next? The circle just keep continuing until champs are so nerfed that they can't move outside of the fountain because they have 0 more speed, and those who use TP (everyone) will have 0 base damage, 0 as, 0 damage on spells, 0 sec duration on their cc/utility with 0 do X effects.

Your "solution" will simply cause more problems than solve, hence why noone uses it.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

Ok, let's say you nerf them to 30% winrate, then what? As you said, some people will still play them and the champ will be an almost instant loss, so they will still maintain a high ban rate because don't want them on their team either. Then what? Nerf them even more? That will only reinforce the "nerf them just in case so they don't get picked on my team" mentality.

But let's assume that what you want happens and their ban rate sink, other champs will take their place. Zed's at already a 30%+ ban rate yet all Zed mains call him weak when he's only weak in super high elo, but quite strong in general play, but w/e. He will then shoot to 50-60% ban rate, gut him too?

Then who's next? The circle just keep continuing until champs are so nerfed that they can't move outside of the fountain because they have 0 more speed, and those who use TP (everyone) will have 0 base damage, 0 as, 0 damage on spells, 0 sec duration on their cc/utility with 0 do X effects.

Your "solution" will simply cause more problems than solve, hence why noone uses it.

Zed probably belongs in that group too.

The theory is simple, if people hate a champion so much that it sees a lot of bans despite being weak, it's poor design. The easiest solution is to remove it from the game until the design can be fixed.

There are like 140 champions in this game. 10 get banned per game. That's a 1/14 chance of getting banned if you ignore the double-ban possibility (more like 1/15 - 1/20 likely since the two teams can duplicate).

That's a 5% to 7% ban rate. If a champion is seeing more than 4x that - there's an issue with the champion's design. If a champion is seeing more than 10x that - the champion either needs serious nerfs or should be deleted entirely tbh...

IP Masquerena1 votes

I think you missed the point.

I said that once those champs are gone from the ban rate (if at all), and other will take their place, what will you do?

Also, since in low elos there's the habbit of "I don't want the risk of that champ being in my team", which is quite popular, as I had it happen several times to me when playing Taliyah jungle, then if a champ is so bad to have a 30% wr, you can be sure that that mentality will be even more reinforced, which may cause that champ to either stagnate in banrate or depending on case and elo, increase.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

I think you missed the point.

I said that once those champs are gone from the ban rate (if at all), and other will take their place, what will you do?

Also, since in low elos there's the habbit of "I don't want the risk of that champ being in my team", which is quite popular, as I had it happen several times to me when playing Taliyah jungle, then if a champ is so bad to have a 30% wr, you can be sure that that mentality will be even more reinforced, which may cause that champ to either stagnate in banrate or depending on case and elo, increase.

I didn't miss the point - I simply disagree that it exists...

The gap in ban rate between the top 3-7 banned champions (or whatever the super popular to ban ones are) and the next group is quite dramatic. There's also a lot of champions hovering around similar ban rates in that next group, so you're spreading it over many champions. I don't think others will take the place of those that are nerfed until reworked.

As far low elos, they don't matter. Riot doesn't balance the game to low elo. Their ban rates are irrelevant to the discussion.

Anyways, it doesn't matter, because Riot doesn't even agree that these champions NEED a rework. Which they do. They REALLY do. The fact that we all ban them shows it. Riot doesn't care though, they want the flashy champions that can outplay anything and everything.

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