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Jhin's superweapon!

Elite4Runner··2 votes·1,957 views

I've received a lot criticism for this suggestion, but the math says that there is one item that is VERY strong on Jhin and in my opinion it is very underrated.

Guinsoo's item 3124 Rageblade!

I imagine that I have already lost a few people by this point. For those of you who are at least willing to humor me, thank you.

CON

So the obvious CON for the effectiveness of this item is that it relies on auto attacking 8 times in a relatively short time and Jhin only has 4 shots before he needs to wait 2.5 seconds (I believe) before he is able to attack again. That is huge, I definitely agree, but lets look at the PROs

PROs

Guinsoo's Rageblade on purchase, with 0 stacks is uneventful. 30 attack damage and 40 ability power. However, as a champion who is able to utilize both stats effectively, I like it. Also, the Rageblade is a very cheap item compared to other completed items.

At a single stack +3 attack damage, +4 ability power, and +8% attack speed means next to nothing. An assumption that I have not confirmed as of yet is that Jhin's passive does not add the 2.5% AD until you have 10% bonus attack speed, so the first stack doesn't give you anything. However, on the second stack you now have a total of 16% bonus attack speed, so it does add at least 2.5% AD. At full stacks it gives 64% bonus attack speed, which is 15% AD. The item alone only has 54 AD, so with Jhin's passive adding 15% from the attack speed alone, 54 + 0.15(54) = 54 + 8.1 = 62.1 AD

This is really not impressive, but keep in mind that this is not taking into consideration any of the increase from your base AD, runes, masteries, other items, or in match buffs.

When you compare a fully stacked Rageblade with any other item in the game currently, no other item gives as much bonus attack speed. The next largest amount of attack speed from a single item is 50%, but none of those items give any attack damage. The next best item that gives both attack speed and attack damage is Blade of the Ruined King which gives 40% attack speed and 25 AD. That would give a bonus 10% bonus total AD. This could be worth it ultimately, but it is also 900 gold more expensive. In my opinion, in order to make either of these items effective, you really need to have as much total AD before the passive effect as possible. I would like to do some item comparisons, including these two, in order to support these points.

For these comparisons I want to assume that Jhin has 100 AD from base growth stats, runes, and masteries, and no other items to enhance his passive aside from the ones mentioned in a given scenario.

item 3124 ( 100 base AD + 30 item AD + 24 stacked AD ) x 1.15 ( 64% stacked attack speed) = 177.1 AD

item 3153 ( 100 base AD + 25 item AD ) x 1.10 (40% static attack speed = 137.5

That isn't even close to me. Even without any stacks Rageblade would be 7.5 AD less than BoRK. At 2 stacks it is 1.9 AD stronger. Now lets look at some of the common items that offer no attack damage, but offer attack speed and critical strike chance.

item 3094 ( 100 base AD + 0 item AD ) x 1.19.5 ( 12% from 30% bonus attack speed + 7.5% from 30% critical strike chance) = 119.5 AD item 3087 These stats actually come out to be the same as Rapid Firecannon.

item 3085 ( 100 base AD + 0 item AD ) x 123.5 ( 16% from 40% bonus attack speed + 7.5% from 30% critical strike chance ) = 123.5 AD item 3046 These stats come out to be the same as Runaan's Hurricane.

These items obviously don't really stack up by themselves but they do offer a greater %AD boost when placed with additional items that grant added AD. However, any single one of these items could be replaced with Rageblade in any combination of items to net a larger overall attack damage total at maximum stacks.

For example,

Lets try to keep it simple. ( even though he would likely be level 18 I'm still going to assume he has only 100 AD. Just assume that these other stats would remain the same for both builds. )

item 3046 item 3072 item 3072 item 3072 item 3072 item 3072 ( 100 base AD + 375 item AD ) x 1.23.5 = 584.73 AD *** again, I understand that in a real game it would be higher than this ***

Now if you replace Phantom Dancer with Guinsoo's Rageblade

With 0 stacks he will have a flat AD total of 515 AD At 8 stacks ( 100 base AD + 429 item AD ) x 1.15 = 608.35 AD

Now, there is a rather obvious exception to all I have been saying so far. item 3031 Infinity Edge does offer a greater amount of base AD and does not require any stacking effects in order to gain additional AD, but only offers an 8% increase in total AD. To use the same math as before...

( 100 base AD + 65 item AD ) x 1.08 = 178.2 AD

So yes, on it's own it does offer a more consistent amount of damage, as well as the additional damage guaranteed from the item's passive.

However, the decrease in % AD stat does not work out as significantly when used in the full build example.

( 100 AD + 440 item AD ) x 1.08 = 583.2 AD

HOWEVER! Lets say you decided to go with something like this, ..

item 3124 item 3031 item 3031 item 3031 item 3031 item 3031

With 0 stacks ( 100 base AD + 355 Item AD ) x 1.40 ( 40% from 100% critical strike chance) = 637 AD With full stacks ( 100 base AD + 379 base AD ) x 1.55 ( 40% from 100% crit strike + 15% from 64% bonus attack speed) = 742.45 AD

Just for grins, a sixth IE would not increase the passive effect at all, but your total AD with this formula would be 686 AD

So all of this and I haven't even mentioned the AP, or the AOE passive.

My theory on this item with Jhin doesn't make you into a mage or an assassin, but instead it makes you into a freight train. You will pack a decent punch when you start a fight, but once you reach full stacks, you will cut a path to the nexus.

I'm sure there are other points, but this is plenty long enough. I am even getting tired of talking about it, and I am confident that few people will actually read this, so if you have actually read this far, .. comment with your favorite color. lol

22 Comments

ViashinoWizard3 votes

Flat AD and Crit are better than Attack Speed for getting damage on Jhin. AS's biggest benefit is the movement speed on crit from your passive. The problem with rageblade is that it's incredibly impractical to get and keep stacks on it. Jhin can't afford to be in range toconstantly auto attack during teamfights.

Of course, that's just my impression. Feel free to try it out and see how it performs.

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

Flat AD and Crit are better than Attack Speed for getting damage on Jhin. AS's biggest benefit is the movement speed on crit from your passive. The problem with rageblade is that it's incredibly impractical to get and keep stacks on it. Jhin can't afford to be in range toconstantly auto attack during teamfights.

Of course, that's just my impression. Feel free to try it out and see how it performs.

Actually I don't see why crit strike is better. I replied to another comment with the three items that give a larger amount of attack damage than rageblade that impact Jhin's passive, and all three of them offer a lower % increase. At 100% critical strike chance you only get an additional 40% of your total AD and you can't get any more than that from crit strike stats. You can get more than 100% bonus attack speed from items, and from much fewer items. At 160% bonus attack speed he gains an additional 40% of your total AD.

Now, I am not saying that you are wrong, instead I am mostly encouraging you to look at Guinsoo's Rageblade as an attack damage item and consider using it to replace one of your crit strike items in order to reach a greater total AD.

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

Flat AD and Crit are better than Attack Speed for getting damage on Jhin. AS's biggest benefit is the movement speed on crit from your passive. The problem with rageblade is that it's incredibly impractical to get and keep stacks on it. Jhin can't afford to be in range toconstantly auto attack during teamfights.

Of course, that's just my impression. Feel free to try it out and see how it performs.

One additional note. Most people like to look at the actual effect of landing a critical strike with champions as a reason to purchase it as a core stat. In most cases if you have 100% critical strike chance you will deal 200% of your overall attack damage on EVERY auto attack (250% with IE). This does not work on Jhin because his passive reduces his actual critical strike chance application to 40% and reduces his critical strike damage output. It does balance out because he tends to have significantly larger AD totals. If we do not count Jhin's 4th, 8th, and 12th auto attacks in our count because they are guaranteed to land as a critical strike, that means at best, 4 of Jhin's 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 10th, and 11th auto attacks will critically strike. Again, he DOES deal more damage overall, but as a statistic it is not as efficient as it seems.

ViashinoWizard1 votes

I was refering to the fact that Crit Chance multiplies Jhin's AD by a higher percentage than AS does. Also, crits activate that very important MS boost.

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

I was refering to the fact that Crit Chance multiplies Jhin's AD by a higher percentage than AS does. Also, crits activate that very important MS boost.

But it actually doesn't when you consider that individual items grant higher bonus attack speed stats than critical strike stats. Only two Summoner's Rift completed items that give critical strike chance do not give attack speed. Only one of those gives less attack speed than critical strike item 3078 , which I hadn't mentioned before, but I honestly don't think this is a great item anymore. Only two of them give less than 10% more attack speed than critical strike chance. There are 8 items that give attack speed that do not give critical strike chance. Rageblade gives the most of these that also gives a substantial amount of attack damage.

So lets try something

item 3124 item 3091 item 3115 item 3142 item 3072 item 3072

( 100 AD + 269 AD ) x 1.5 (50% for 204% bonus attack speed) = 553.5 AD with full Rageblade stacks and Ghostblade active.

Yeah, this does not ultimately give you more attack damage, but it is hardly a small amount and with no critical strike items. It also gives you 152 AP. In combination with Wits End, that is another 77.8 magic damage on hit, while stealing magic resistance. Just something to keep in mind.

EcchiOtakuTM2 votes

Rageblade is horrible on jhin ._.

DrCyanide2 votes

You're forgetting the all important resource of time.

At level 18, you're attacking about once per second (it's slower at lower levels). This means to get your 8th stack you need to be in combat for 14 seconds straight. This is assuming the stacks even carry for the 2.5 seconds you're reloading, which I'm not sure they will.

Let's keep things simple and assume you have boots, 4 items that deal 65 AD, and one variable item. I'll choose Infinity Edge against your Rageblade. We'll ignore other sources of crit, attack speed, etc, since those differences should be the same for both builds.

100 Base AD + 260 AD Other Items = 360AD.

Infinity Edge = 425 AD + 20% crit chance for 16% 8% bonus AD = 493 459 AD

Rageblade (note I'm assuming AD gains don't effect shots already fired): 0 stacks = 390 AD 1 stack = 390 AD + 3 AD + 8% AS = 393 AD 2 stacks = 390 AD + 6 AD + 16% AS for 2.5% bonus AD = 405 AD 3 stacks = 390 AD + 9 AD + 24% AS for 5% bonus AD = 419 AD

At this point you're reloading. Ignoring the critical strike or bonus missing health damage, the IE build has dealt 365 229 more damage to the enemy. The Infinity Edge has done in 4 shots what you're hoping to do 2.5 seconds from now with your fifth. When you consider that the IE is boosting that crit and the opponent is missing more health so it does more damage from the passive.

4 stacks = 390 AD + 12 AD + 32% AS for 7.5% bonus AD = 432 AD 5 stacks = 390 AD + 15 AD + 40% AS for 10% bonus AD = 446 AD 6 stacks = 390 AD + 18 AD + 48% AS for 10% bonus AD = 449 AD 7 stacks = 390 AD + 21 AD + 56% AS for 12.5% bonus AD = 462 AD

Again you're reloading, and again you're still not doing as much per shot as the Infinity Edge. you're just barely squeaking out more damage than the Infinity Edge Build.

8 stacks = 390 AD + 24 AD + 64% AS for 15% bonus AD = 476 AD + 20 + (376 * 0.15%) = 552 AD (+some change for the AP)

At max stacks, your finally dealing more damage than if you got that stupid Infinity Edge!

Infinity Edge damage done: 4,437 4,131 Rageblade damage done: 3,948

489 183 damage down, you can finally start catching up. Rageblade closes the gap by 59 93 damage per auto attack from here on out, meaning it takes 9 2 more auto attacks to catch up.

Let's recap - You need 14 seconds to get it powered up, then another 14 2 seconds in combat to finally exceed the damage output of your competition. 28 16 seconds of constant auto attacks, without being blinded, stunned, entangled, etc.

It's impossible. If your team has any waveclear at all you won't be able to use the minion wave reliably, losing stacks. If you go through the jungle you'll lose stacks. If you reload at the wrong time, you'll lose stacks. The cons outweigh the pros.

TL;DR: No, Rageblade is an absolutely terrible idea on Jhin.

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

Infinity Edge = 425 AD + 20% crit chance for 16% bonus AD = 493 AD

Also, this is a key factor in your argument and it is incorrect. 20% critical chance only gives 8% bonus AD.

DrCyanide1 votes

That's what I get for doing math while falling asleep... Corrected, with the original values crossed out in case I missed something else.

Still, you have to be auto attacking for 16 seconds before you tie the damage output of another item. 4 seconds looks like the max delay between attacks on Rageblade before you loose stacks, so if you get stunned at the end of your reload cycle it's game over for the build. If your team waveclears the minions or if you have to walk through the jungle you're also at a disadvantage.

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

That's what I get for doing math while falling asleep... Corrected, with the original values crossed out in case I missed something else.

Still, you have to be auto attacking for 16 seconds before you tie the damage output of another item. 4 seconds looks like the max delay between attacks on Rageblade before you loose stacks, so if you get stunned at the end of your reload cycle it's game over for the build. If your team waveclears the minions or if you have to walk through the jungle you're also at a disadvantage.

Valid point, but getting caught out as Jhin is pretty much death no matter what you build. When it comes to team fights there is not often a shortage of targets to auto attack unless you're winning. But again, I don't think anyone who is seriously trying to make this work would get Guinsoo's Rageblade and not get Infinity Edge as well. Actually the build that Mythicman89 suggested would be excellent.

DrCyanide1 votes

Who said anything about getting caught out? Your team could be setting up a death bush, or rotating between lanes as a unit, and you'd loose all the stacks. Sure, you could find a target to shoot when the fight comes, but you then have to attack for 16 seconds without dying or pausing for 4 seconds.

Until you get to 100% crit chance, a second Infinity Edge or an Essence Reaver would serve you better than a Rageblade.

My personal three favorite items on Jhin are:

  • item 3031 (duh)
  • item 3812 damage+lifesteal+spellvamp+bleed out slower so I can lifesteal back up. Made from cheep components, which is good if I am falling behind
  • item 3094 for extra range on those 4th shots I've been saving

I feel like a "More Damage!" discussion ultimately misses the utility that's available from other items.

PS: I use Discussion View, I have no idea who those other posts you made are addressed to.

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

Who said anything about getting caught out? Your team could be setting up a death bush, or rotating between lanes as a unit, and you'd loose all the stacks. Sure, you could find a target to shoot when the fight comes, but you then have to attack for 16 seconds without dying or pausing for 4 seconds.

Until you get to 100% crit chance, a second Infinity Edge or an Essence Reaver would serve you better than a Rageblade.

My personal three favorite items on Jhin are:

  • item 3031 (duh)
  • item 3812 damage+lifesteal+spellvamp+bleed out slower so I can lifesteal back up. Made from cheep components, which is good if I am falling behind
  • item 3094 for extra range on those 4th shots I've been saving

I feel like a "More Damage!" discussion ultimately misses the utility that's available from other items.

PS: I use Discussion View, I have no idea who those other posts you made are addressed to.

As far as this whole 16 seconds thing you keep referring to, I don't see where you are getting this figure. At level 18 Jhin's attack speed is actually .625 + 0.51%, which comes out to 0.94375 attacks per second (close enough to be considered 1 per second). If we can assume that Jhin is able to attack at an optimal rate, that is 4 seconds + 2.5 seconds for reload, + 4 seconds to reach 8 stacks. That is only 10.5 seconds. Another 2.5 seconds for reload and he is able to continue with max stacks as well as an AOE passive that deals additional 20 ( +15% bonus AD) ( + 7.5% AP) on-hit magic damage to the target and all units in a 350 unit radius. So look, more damage. You mentioned that the rage stacks only last for 4 seconds. It is actually 5 and that is actually does matter when you keep referring to how every second matters.

Also, don't forget about his abilities. Having such a massive AD pool will enhance all of his abilities damage output respectively, and the additional AP will enhance his Q and E. Keep in mind that with Q, upon killing 3 units, the 4th bounce deals 393.66 + (123.02% AD) + (147.62% AP) physical damage. His E deals 260 (120% AD) + (100% AP) magical damage.

I actually agree with you about people overly focusing on max damage builds. To be completely honest, it is the under-used build concepts that I find the most interesting on champions in general. That may be why I feel so strongly about this one. I absolutely acknowledged the fact that it has a major drawback in the very beginning of my post. I just want people to at least acknowledge that it can lead to a strong situational build. This would definitely not work well in solo-que, but if a team composition were built around this, it could not only be viable, but strong. When facing a good team that has caught on to this idea it could definitely be countered, but again, that comes down to good positioning.

PS: Why use Discussion View on a forum? You miss out on things that other people say. I definitely understand if a forum blows up, but I'm really surprised that I have even received as many comments as I have. Honestly, thank you for commenting though.

The build that was suggested was. item 3031 item 3124 item 3142 item 3508 item 3072 item 3031

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

I feel like a "More Damage!" discussion ultimately misses the utility that's available from other items.

This actually got me thinking about the available utility in the build I suggested in my last reply to you. One of the flaws in the calculations I had made in another comment, which you may or may not have seen was that I was assuming that item 3142's active would have been used at the end, when item 3124 was at maximum stacks. This would be ideal for achieving the greatest possible total of AD the build could offer, but as you mentioned, that may not work best for overall utility. In truth, Ghostblade's active only lasts for 6 seconds, which as I pointed out in my last reply, is only 1 cycle of 4 shots and a reload. What if instead, Ghostblade was activated during the first cycle instead of the last? Ghostblade's active gives 40% bonus attack speed ( +10% total AD ) and +20% movement speed. This would bring the total attack damage later on down but increase the average amount of attack damage throughout the stacking process up. Plus the active would give Jhin some additional movement speed, giving him a bit of extra safety during the engage. Immediately after the Ghostblade active ends, there would be a small power dip, but if the fight extends longer, the additional stacks would bring the damage output up more. There is still a danger of ultimately losing stacks, but tell me that this at least helps make this into a more viable combination.

Stephenizgod2 votes

on paper you get more AD, in practice you probably get 5 stacks max before their team is either obliterated or you are.

I am Bob Ross1 votes

what about item 3146 ? it has both Ad and Ap. and a slow. might be a good pick with something like item 3124 item 3146 item 3094 and what ever else

Mysticman891 votes

Add in a ghostblade active with a fully stacked rageblade for a lot of bonus AS->bonus AD. So item 3031 item 3124 item 3142 item 3508 item 3072 item 3031 and then start 1 shotting tanks or something silly like that.

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

Add in a ghostblade active with a fully stacked rageblade for a lot of bonus AS->bonus AD. So item 3031 item 3124 item 3142 item 3508 item 3072 item 3031 and then start 1 shotting tanks or something silly like that.

still going with my benchmark

0 stacks on Rageblade and Ghostblade inactive ( 100 AD + 375 Item AD ) x 1.24 = 589 AD

Full stacks and Active ( 100 AD + 499 item AD ) 1.39 = 832 AD

So yeah, that would be a pretty strong combination.

Elite4Runner1 votes

Well, my point was to highlight how well Rageblade works with Jhin's passive because it gives up to 54 attack damage and 64% attack speed. As I said in my reasoning, at full stacks this item alone gives 62.1 AD. The only single items that give any more AD on their own are

item 3072 75 AD item 3812 75 AD item 3147 75 AD item 3139 75 AD item 3074 75 AD All of these only give a flat addition in attack damage and do not provide any means of increasing the overall attack damage for themselves and other AD providing items.

There are only three items that give more attack damage as single items that do provide means to additionally increase Jhin's attack damage item 3031 70.2 AD Gives much less of a bonus ( +8% total AD) when combined with the same respective set of items vs Guinsoo's Rageblade ( +15% total AD).

item 3142 65 AD inactive/ 71.5 active Gives a stronger boost in total attack damage ( + 10% ), but only 6 seconds.

item 3508 70.2 AD Is actually one of my favorites when I want to go for CDR, so I would say this is a good option that also helps with mana problems

My goal with this post was to illustrate that item 3124 can replace any single item on Summoner's Rift that people typically consider to work strongly with Jhin's passive, in order to ultimately result in a larger total attack damage. And it also gives a little ability power boost on the side, along with the AOE passive to help with his wave clear.

Elite4Runner1 votes

It seems as if you are comparing two builds where you will have either Rageblade or Infinity Edge. What about a build that contains both?

I am definitely not saying that simply by having a Rageblade you will absolutely dominate over any other item combination, but I am trying to illustrate that it is still a lot stronger as an item than it is given credit for. Even if you are not consistently reaching full stacks, it is possible to do and does give you a boost in power, more so than other common items.

Elite4Runner1 votes

Look people, it isn't as hard to stack as you're all making it out to sound. Yes, getting full stacks and maintaining them is a challenge, but even with a few stacks it adds up. Also, being a VERY cheap item, it is VERY efficient.

Elite4Runner1 votes

In fact, any item that gives 40% attack speed will give a greater bonus ( +10% ) than infinity Edge ( +8% ). So as of 5 stacks you should have more AD.

Elite4Runner1 votes

I really wish I had all of the bonuses you could get from runes, masteries, and buffs to be able to add into my calculations. I know things like Jhin's level 18 base AD is 113, and you would also gain an additional 40% increase to your overall AD simply from leveling. I think if all of this was added into the equations I have given the actual totals would be respectively similar, but the gaps would be large enough to actually start to show real promise.

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