Do you even notice DRAGON 1 - 4 when you play? Does a game ever hinge on this factor?

Occams Raiser··2 votes·658 views

I see people die over this objective more than I think need to. Most people can't even capitalize off the the dragon buffs. I don't even notice them. I think Riot put them in the game to spice things up and it did. Its spicy cause it gives dunder heads something to fight over. I do notice DRAG 5, don't get me wrong. If you have a game where you think drag is how you lost it. I think you are probably wrong. It was the vision same as always. I think the game is determined over the fight for dragon but not the dragon itself. It's the Maltese Falcon of SR. The Pulp fiction brief case for you youngsters.

43 Comments

Centuros7 votes

You don't notice them because they are just stats. It's like old Sona's auras: they were actually quite strong, but you couldn't NOTICE them helping because it was just invisible stats.

Occams Raiser1 votes

But in the end do they really determine the outcome enough to try for the steal and for sacrificing lives over it? I would say no. I see teams giving up triple kills over dragon fights. I will not go all in for dragon fight unless we out number and it is really for the kills..

NoMonku1 votes

As Centuros said, it all comes down to stats. Stats aren't really noticeable except early game when someone has a item 1038 or item 1058 and their lane opponent doesn't. The stats that dragons 1-4 aren't really noticeable except in close matchs or in specific scenarios. Certain buffs are more important depending on team comps, such as having the 3rd dragon buff, the MS buff, lets a team that pokes run away easier or allows the chasing team to catch up. The 4th buff is important more because it allows the 5th buff, so it can force the enemy to fight. The 3rd one can as well, depending on how well one teams late game is compared to the other.

Also the change of the dragon buff to an actual objective is because before teams would just dance around baron and it would become a huge stall. With the dragon buff, teams have another buff that is equal to or possibly superior to baron buff if they planned well and got dragons throughout the game, making it something more important then just trading it for a top lane tower push.

Occams Raiser1 votes

What is it worth to get or contest them? teams lose a lot of times going after them. It winds up being the team fights that did them in not the dragons.

NoMonku1 votes

Yes, it IS the teamfight that does them in, but the main reason the teamfight happened is because of the dragon. I think of it similar to how you try to take baron except outside of the other team getting 5th dragon, it isn't too impactful to stop it. It is mainly another objective that gives power to the champions(that isn't gold) that can force teams to fight. The dragon 5 buff is strong enough that early on trying to steal/stop early dragons might be worth it because of the power of a 5th dragon. Also, in a straight up fight, the first dragon buff is the most important because it offers more damage. If a team is able to monopolize dragon and deny it to the other team, it is a bunch of free power that the other team won't have.

Onegarion1 votes

Actually the first dragon buff is really not that important. Ask any high elo player and even if you watch some of the LCS/LCk/etc they all don't think 1st drag is that worth. 6% is not much at all especially early game. It only lets you start rolling with the rest.

BringYourOwnPuma1 votes

{quoted}

Actually the first dragon buff is really not that important. Ask any high elo player and even if you watch some of the LCS/LCk/etc they all don't think 1st drag is that worth. 6% is not much at all especially early game. It only lets you start rolling with the rest.

This is true and false. Yes the buff isn't that great. But as warwick i often take it as my 3rd camp solo. Does it put me a little behind? Yes. Is it worth it when my team has Burn & Double at 28 minutes? Yes.

First buff is essentially an item for your team - spread out amongst everyone.

There is no dispute that controlling the dragon wins games. Look at any stats based around it and you'll find that the team that holds first dragon most often will win the game. Burn & Double is absolutely insane, and ive turned the tide of a BADLY losing game just by controlling the dragon.

It was something like 11 to 20 with our 6 outer towers down and we got burn and proceeded to roll over them.

T RexHasLongLegs1 votes

Depends on the lives sacrificed and the dragon number. Obviously if the enemy is at 4 it is worth a death or maybe even 3 depending on timers to keep them from getting 5 and steal it. Similarly if it is the first dragon for your team (especially mid game) it is almost always worth a death or two. Death if not a shut down is like 300-500 gold with assists so we are talking blasting wand for a mage amounts (+40ap). Drag 1 is 6% ap and ad, which at 100 (pretty low number to have on everyone but support honestly) is 6, so only worth giving up one kill since that is equal in gold value to the 24-30 ap/ad the team gets, but at 200/300 ap and ad we start seeing 12-18 per person and are at like 1k gold value pretty quick (which definitely out weighs the 300-500 gold for one kill given up).

T RexHasLongLegs1 votes

I think the other argument here is you only notice them if you pay attention. AP quints and blues are noticeable, and the 6% gives values in similar ranges, but you only notice it if you are paying attention and think about the difference in what it lets you do.

JustMyBassCannon3 votes

I thought you were talking about level 1-4 with Dragon's buffs, not the dragon buffs themselves at 1-4 stacks.

They do make a noticeable difference, particularly from 2 stacks up. The first stack is barely a steroid, until you have in the range of 150-200 AD and/or AP, but increasing your damage to turrets by 15% makes pushing a lot easier. Increasing the whole team's MS by +5% is enough to stay ahead unless they have a massive mobility advantage (in which case you're trying to street-race Ashe vs Rammus or something equally silly). Increasing damage to minions/monsters makes pushing easier.

Occams Raiser1 votes

Most people don't want to push lane too early but I see people front load dragon fights in game and die because of it.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

I've made that mistake once or twice as well, Dragon's an important buff but not a very safe one to gain. You either need to know they have no vision, or know that they can't get to Dragon fast enough.

Marthian1 votes

Usually by the time you would have the 2nd buff, it's starting to become mid game and you should be going after turrets most of the time. That's 12 minutes minimum, excluding the first few minutes of most junglers' slow start and/or not be able to take it.

Angry Monster1 votes

What is early? I have seen players freak out that the enemy laner tower is going down pre 15 minutes. These are usually weak players that are hoping to win a late game fight instead of manipulating the map.

Occams Raiser1 votes

Early is different for each team. lev 9 would be average taking of first turret?

Angry Monster1 votes

yeah that is mid game.

OJ1912 votes

If you don't pay attention to dragon 1-4, regardless of their impact on the game, you're going to be sorry when they hit dragon 5 and you're still only dragon 1.

Obviously don't fight if there is no way in hell you can win or even steal, but just going "oh it's only dragon 1 let em have it" is silly.

Occams Raiser1 votes

I would never give them free shit but I don't want to die over it. I see your point.

BringYourOwnPuma1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cJjjiluB,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-05-04T02:56:40.167+0000)

I would never give them free shit but I don't want to die over it. I see your point.

Its all about figuring out what the dragon is really worth

Can you go in and steal it from beneath them and you probably die? Worth it

If you lose an outer tower or fail to down an enemy outer tower but are able to assist with dragon and get it? Worth it

If your team is unable to contest and you rush in, manage to steal it, but give them 5 kills, is it worth it? No.

Two kills? Yes ....ect..

junglerboy161 votes

Dragon 1 is EXTREMELY noticeable to me, and if my team gets it by about 7 minutes in, we tend to snowball quite well for the remainder of the match. conversely, if my team is really behind and we only get first drag at around 25-30 minutes in, the multiplier feels absolutely gargantuan and can often flip a losing game on its head.

2 and 3 are unnoticeable, but I always notice 4, mostly because we know we can't let them have 5th.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Dragon 2 and 3 are HUGE.

Occams Raiser1 votes

What is it worth to get or contest them?

BluePolarizer1 votes

2 deaths for dragon 2 but 3 for dragon 3. The movespeed is incredible.

SIayton1 votes

I notice Dragon 3 A LOT. The other ones not so much. But I also love movement speed and think its hella underrated. After I get the third dragon I just stop caring about drag lol

Occams Raiser1 votes

I see it.

MalzaharAnyLane1 votes

Nothing pisses me off more than players pinging dragon when they know damn well no one is in range to contest it. If you're already behind, attacking the enemy team 3v3 or 3v4 is suicide and will only throw the game harder. Pinging to contest a buff you know you can't get is a surefire way to throw the game, dragon early or baron late.

In solo queue, you can often get as much done gold-wise as you would have getting dragon itself by not trying to commit suicide stealing the fucking thing or just not engaging in a fight. When it comes to both Dragon and Baron, it is easier for the people already in and around the pit to defend from attacks than it is for a team that came late and wants to contest it. Dragon and Baron aren't exactly tower DPS.

Trading towers for dragons is a thing that happens often, and sometimes a single teammate making 250g off a creep clump is far more important than 100 or 125g split across the whole team. If your mid, top, jungler and carry are all making 80g each, then dragon doesn't put the enemy team more than 200g ahead across the board.

Occams Raiser1 votes

You are a voice of reason. What do you main?

Phuc Dat Bich1 votes

if you think that riot took the dragon buff that provide more damage to monster and minions from buff number 2 to buff number 4 you can say that it was pretty huge!!

And if you imagine that rito already nerf dragon buff 1 from 8% to 6% it make you wonder!!

And if you realize that 5% ms just because you kill a drag is way more worth that 150g that the old dragon was give (5% ms you get from the item 3086 so yo u do the math what is more worth? 150g or 5% MS?

and final the damage to turret trust me i play split over champs and when you dont have this buff you can feel that you destroy the turret way slower~!

Occams Raiser1 votes

I know there are benefits to it but what is the worth when it comes to contesting it? How many deaths is it worth to get each drag?

BringYourOwnPuma1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cJjjiluB,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2015-05-04T08:15:05.074+0000)

I know there are benefits to it but what is the worth when it comes to contesting it? How many deaths is it worth to get each drag?

2, 3 at the most and it depends on the stage of the game. Who dies. When and how many of them you took out in the process.

Epilogue of Life1 votes

As an assassin player, stack 1 and 3 are so good to me...the stuff I look forward to every game.

50000000000000001 votes

Mobility is really noticeable.

First dragon is usually not noticeable because at such an early level, 8% bonus AD/AP equates to very little stat boost. If you're an ADC with a B.F. Sword, (at about 120150 AD when getting first dragon) you'd gain 9.612 AD. That's about the same as an extra long sword. Later, when you have 300 AD or something, that's 24 extra AD, and if you have 800 AP, that's 64 extra AP. So first dragon is almost always unnoticeable. It may help you CS more easily, but that's about it at early game.

Second dragon can help take towers a lot faster. It's also not very noticeable since you'd be out of laning phase by then, so taking towers is usually a team effort and towers go down really quickly. Inhibitor towers are tankier, but at that point you'd already have the tower damage buff, so it's also hard to notice it.

Third dragon is especially noticeable because suddenly you move faster.

Fourth dragon is also unnoticeable because by then you don't have a lot of problems killing minions/monsters. I think the damage bonus also applies on dragon and baron, but I'm not certain. If it does it's a huge advantage, but it will probably be pretty unnoticeable because you can't try the damage change on dragon (since it will be down for 6 minutes) or baron (which if you already had taken, you'd be a lot more fed than before so how fast you take baron wouldn't be a good measure of dragon buff's effect, and if you didn't, you can't compare it to anything).

Fifth dragon gives you basically red buff, so that's noticeable.

Overall, I think getting dragon buff is generally worth less than a free tower, but more than a tower. Stealing dragon is worth a death or two, since it puts the other team back from getting to higher-level buffs.

Stonington1 votes

I think dragon is worth 1 death. More if it's the 5th dragon. It's tough to put a price on it. Dragon buffs provide invisible power so you won't likely notice them, but they're actually a pretty big deal.

Angry Monster1 votes

Notice is a weird concept. I do not notice the impact of boots 2 from boots 1 except when chasing or being chased. With the way health works its also harder to appreciate power. The difference of 6% might be only 50 damage so health bars look relatively the same.

The early dragons are not supposed to be game deciding which makes their power hard to feel. Everyone agrees that 5 is important, but does that not mean all the others are important since you have to build to 5? The first dragon is really the weakest; since it is gotten so early and its power is a direct result to your stats. Early game stats are weak so you get a weak return, if you could toggle the 6% you would notice the power difference in a 3 or 4 item build (assuming AD or AP build).

The dragon is gated through % power to make it not a must have or game is over situation. When things are balanced in this way(correctly) it does not show but it always there.

You ask if people notice, the question is should the power be noticeable? The answer is no, for this type of game.

Occams Raiser1 votes

I meant strategically notice not as a matter of perception. if a team has four dragons and you have none, It seems like you have all the likelihood of beating them as if they had no drags. If you give up kills trying to contest dragon and losing, that has a bigger effect on the game than drag itself.

Angry Monster1 votes

I am personally aware of the dragons but i am a jungler main and i think of objectives in game play. I get very up set when the enemy gets 3 dragons, so i am very aware of them overall.

I think a dragon can be worth 3 deaths in certain cases. I am willing to sacrifice 3 of my team mates to stop a 5th or to achieve a 4th for my team. Plenty of times i have suicide in the attempt of stealing and stopping the first dragon from happening for the enemy.

I think the nature of comps matters when deciding the value of a dragon. 2 weeks ago i was playing ranked (solo duo)and we had the weaker comp and everyone on the team knew it. So we doubled down on objectives (jungler dying for dragon a few times). We won cause we kept rolling every little advantage and people understood the need for every advantage we got.

Some comps do not need the power of dragons and will face roll unless faced against a baron 5 buff dragon team.

Occams Raiser1 votes

three deaths is like over 1500 gold in kills and assist isn't it? Seems like ONLY the 5th would be worth such a thing, which is scary cause that is when I wouldn't want so many dead at once.

Angry Monster1 votes

yeah its 1500 but that is spread out among 5 people. Depending on how the game is going it may not be that big of a deal.

Occams Raiser1 votes

might be a triple kill with the assists being passed out. that would be ugly to give an adc.

Miku Lv991 votes

I notice dragons 1 and 3. 2 and 4 don't seem like they even matter.

Occams Raiser1 votes

you are the opposite of others.

JelisahQuest1 votes

Haha, I've been pondering on this subject all day actually and have formed a hypothesis regarding the importance of dragon. In high elo gameplay where every cs is important, position and timing are absolutely crucial in team fights, when losing a crucial member during a team fight can almost guarantee an imminent 5v4 bulldozer taking your base in seconds, yes I think dragon buffs may play a significant role in achieving victory.

With that being said, the ridiculous lengths people will go to in low elo matches for a single dragon is laughable. Remember what you did before you realized rotating lanes for different objectives was an option? Or that it's generally a bad idea to ignore huge waves of minions marching towards undefended turrets so you could chase nidalee through the jungle for 15 minutes only to have the shutdown gold end up in thresh's pocket (Not bashing kill secures btw haha), or how about when you yelled at the adc for focusing the safest viable target rather than the diving the enemy adc? In short, don't contest dragon if you don't have the numbers, don't contest dragon if you don't have the levels/items you need to win a team fight, and most importantly, don't spend 10 minutes dancing in the river because both teams are afraid to engage.

The way I look at it, league is an objective based game with 1 objective, destroy the enemy nexus. Can dragon help you achieve this goal? Yes, to the extent that it does not detract from the many other things you could have been doing during that time. When you see nightblue or someone jungling on twitch and he spots the enemy jungler ganking top lane, what does he do? He capitalizes on the information by securing dragon or ganking bot without fear of being counter ganked or steals enemy jungle camps. The reason I wrote up this long post is because yes I am low elo, and I am sick and fucking tired of people bitching about my absence in team fights. Now, let me say this, I am not opposed to team fighting when it is either necessary or beneficial to winning, in essence, when my presence and contribution will be of note, and when there isn't something better I could be doing with me time. It's the same mentality you have to take when you're jungling. Where is my time best spent? If you've got 4 people defending against a five man push on one of our turrets and I can take two turrets an inhib and secure lane pressure in multiple lanes and take about 50 or 60 CS in the process and maybe grab a dragon solo, stfu and defend that turret yourself or trade it for the massive loss the enemy has sustained while I just made 1500 gold to finish my next item.

It's not greed, it's bishop takes queen and puts king in check. The easiest way to defend your own turrets is to take something more important to them, and right now ladies and gents, dragon seems to be the holy grail of wasted effort in low elo due to poor team fighting just from lack of experience (I'm guilty of this myself) and poor group synergy. I'm sorry, but I'm not betting on a group of strangers that are considered to be the ones taking the shortbus to the rift that grouping up with you for a 5v5 is necessarily the best way to win the game. If I see an opp to take a turret or an inhib and the other option is to do the safety dance with my retarded classmates, if I'm strong enough I'm going to do the former. 9/10 what happens in this scenario? They back one by one to stop me from getting my 2nd turret or inhib only to walk face first into more than they bargained for and get to spend the next 60 seconds QQing that one of their team mates is shit for feeding X champ who is OP and takes no skill (but weren't bright enough to pick for some reason >_>) . Hey, ya know what though, this isn't a great strat, and prolly is dealt with much more swiftly by more skilled players that know when to farm, when to fight, and when to run, but ever since the onset of the "Tank meta", if I'm playing with and against people that are having fun chasing through the jungle to kill a low HP sion or standing around twiddling their thumbs because tanks at this elo are more often than not total shit at peeling for their squishies, I'm gonna try and win the game by myself by staying the fuck away from enemy groups, pushing lanes and looking for easy picks and farm for that inglorious solo carry rather than praying to the lords of league that I'll last long enough in a team fight with a group of people that learned to play league with face applied directly to keyboard while having two 4k hp tanks run a train on my ass prison style.

This one goes out to all the ADC's like me, who have never harshed on anyone, for anything, during any game... ever. We have never won a game and said "ez". We have never blamed a lane for feeding. We have never antagonized our enemies who were kind enough to take time out of their day to play a game with you. On behalf of the good guy adc, thank you jungler for ganking whenever you could, and it's ok that sometimes you totally bone us by giving the enemy laner 3 kills while we were buying items, we know you didn't mean to. We forgive you mid laner for forgetting to ping MIA, we should be watching the minimap too and take full responsibility for our own demise at the hands of your 7/0 assassin opponent that's 4 levels higher than us. It's ok, and we were happy to play with you none the less.

/Drops mic

... not sure what my where I was going with this anyways o_0 Talk about your bipolar tangential thought process.

Occams Raiser1 votes

good enough though.

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