PBE: Cinderhulk no longer builds up Immolation damage over time, deals about half at level 18

darkdill·May 1, 2015·31 votes·4,908 views

Unique Passive - Immolate no longer increases in damage based on time in combat. Now deals flat 15 (+.6 per champion level) magic damage to nearby enemies Unique Passive - Immolate now deals 100% bonus damage to minions and monsters.

Riot, Cinderhulk DOES need a nerf, but this is kinda overkill. Any context for why the change is such a severe damage reduction vs. Champions?

EDIT: I'm not saying Cinderhulk's damage should not be nerfed. Just not so hard. Maybe something like 15 (+.8 per Champion level) instead.

88 Comments

Z StatisticMay 1, 201519 votes

Because Cinderhulk was clearing first, damage second? It's SUPPOSED to make your clearing insane. If you want damage vs champions, you want SF cape.

x No HeartMay 1, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Because Cinderhulk was clearing first, damage second? It's SUPPOSED to make your clearing insane. If you want damage vs champions, you want SF cape.

Good point in the sense that now that Sunfire Cape is tanky sustained damage and Cinderhulk is clear, the two should be stackable IMO.

Z StatisticMay 1, 201512 votes

Um, no.

You either opt in for clear speed or you opt in for dps in team fights. If they stacked, there'd really be no reason not to build both.

x No HeartMay 1, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Um, no.

You either opt in for clear speed or you opt in for dps in team fights. If they stacked, there'd really be no reason not to build both.

Uhm, yes? There are a ton of fantastic viable armor options in Frozen Heart, Randuin's, and Thornmail. Even if this change goes through, there's still no reason to build Sunfire unless you're stacking AoE damage on a champion like Gator.

Z StatisticMay 1, 20155 votes

If you have sticking power in your kit, you skip Randuin's. Tanks build FH because of BoRK and the ADC in general, but that's just one item. Thornmail would be good but doesn't provide needed help vs Magic damage and is best a third or fourth defensive item.

So, if you have sticking power, have slow clears, and want hp, then you will be building SF and Cinderhulk pretty much every single game. And don't forget that building pure armor or pure MR will miss out on cinder hulk's passive. So you want to build hp+res items or just straight hp unless in the case of FH you want the sexy passive attached to it. Junglers who are like this: Amumu Chogath Gragas JarvanIV Malphite Maokai RekSai Sejuani Sion Trundle Udyr Zac

x No HeartMay 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If you have sticking power in your kit, you skip Randuin's. Tanks build FH because of BoRK and the ADC in general, but that's just one item. Thornmail would be good but doesn't provide needed help vs Magic damage and is best a third or fourth defensive item.

So, if you have sticking power, have slow clears, and want hp, then you will be building SF and Cinderhulk pretty much every single game. And don't forget that building pure armor or pure MR will miss out on cinder hulk's passive. So you want to build hp+res items or just straight hp unless in the case of FH you want the sexy passive attached to it. Junglers who are like this:

Sunfire would only gain 125 HP from Cinderhulk, and that barely makes it passable. Every armor item I listed is better in every scenario.

Z StatisticMay 1, 20155 votes

J4 does not need randuin's. He is much better building FH and then Locket. You build defensively to cover your weaknesses if you have any.

Let's be real. If Cinderhulk were removed and SF cape now had 625 health, it would be extremely good. On average, you will only get around +400 hp from cinder hulk's passive. That means you only get 100 hp from each item basically.

Except 400 HP is a lot of HP even at lvl 18.

KingsgraveMay 1, 201513 votes

Cinderhulk was better in every way to Sunfire, thus causing Top Laners to always want to take Smite just for Cinderhulk. The enchant now has an actual tradeoff to it, which it "seems like a bit much" because it was "a bit" OP.

SEKAIMay 1, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Cinderhulk was better in every way to Sunfire, thus causing Top Laners to always want to take Smite just for Cinderhulk. The enchant now has an actual tradeoff to it, which it "seems like a bit much" because it was "a bit" OP.

A nerf would have done it, not a gut and a buff on something else that coincidentally is the one that kills everyone evenly and is always purchased by damage dealers.

It's like a straight Fk You to the face of tanks saying "you know what, squishy is better".

Also Cinderhulk and Sunfire don't even stack, what's the point of having 2 items for different things when they have nothing to do with each other but they can't be built on the same person? What's the point outside of restricting tanks back to square one, which was the reason they made Cinderhulk in the first place?

ActualPainMay 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Cinderhulk was better in every way to Sunfire, thus causing Top Laners to always want to take Smite just for Cinderhulk. The enchant now has an actual tradeoff to it, which it "seems like a bit much" because it was "a bit" OP.

Tops are still going to want to take Smite for Cinderhulk because it offers the extra 25% bonus hp. That is just a massive buff to hp tanks and all tanks really.

Meep ManMay 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Cinderhulk was better in every way to Sunfire, thus causing Top Laners to always want to take Smite just for Cinderhulk. The enchant now has an actual tradeoff to it, which it "seems like a bit much" because it was "a bit" OP.

I only take smite Top for item 3715

GrotesqueJakMay 1, 201512 votes

I don't get why people are bitching. Cinderhulk still gives 25% Max HP so all the tanks scale like crazy and the immolate damage is still fine. Clearing is still fine if not better(?). Lol this won't hurt tanks so much but it does mean they stop dealing fuck tons of damage and start focusing on soaking damage.

x No HeartMay 1, 20157 votes

{quoted}

I don't get why people are bitching. Cinderhulk still gives 25% Max HP so all the tanks scale like crazy and the immolate damage is still fine. Clearing is still fine if not better(?). Lol this won't hurt tanks so much but it does mean they stop dealing fuck tons of damage and start focusing on soaking damage.

50% of the reason they deal so much is Challenging Smite. They should've hit that instead of Cinderhulk, made it reduce damage more but deal less true damage.

SEKAIMay 1, 20154 votes

You can't soak damage when you aren't even remotely threatening, unless you have taunts, otherwise outside of Bronze and maybe Silver people can just ignore you.

There is a reason to why tanks went extinct for a while.

Nerf would have been fine, not a gut on top of that piece of shat BotRK's buff. Way to overdo stuff again.

EDIT: The Cinderhulk and Sunfire don't stack, gutting Cinderhulk would only hurt tanks in general.

MrSc0ttyMay 1, 20154 votes

{quoted}

You can't soak damage when you aren't even remotely threatening, unless you have taunts, otherwise outside of Bronze and maybe Silver people can just ignore you.

There is a reason to why tanks went extinct for a while.

Nerf would have been fine, not a gut on top of that piece of shat BotRK's buff. Way to overdo stuff again.

Tanks went extinct because they couldn't clear jungle. Most tanks either have enough cc that they can't be ignored because they lock you down and their team kills you (Naut, Rammus) or they have enough damage without building damage to be a credible threat (Voli, Sej, Mundo )

SEKAIMay 1, 20159 votes

Expected, can't say I didn't see that coming.

Now squishy mains are happy and will stop crying about how they are supposed to one shot a fed tank, and are supposed to sustain and survive when building cheese 0 defense all offense.

Classic Riot, classic.

Can you stop mindlessly catering towards them please?

darkdillMay 1, 201517 votes

Especially since Black Cleaver got overhauled and BoRK is now better. I think Riot's jumping the gun with the Cinderhulk nerf. They should wait a little longer and see how the BC and BoRK changes do.

CatSithMay 1, 20153 votes

just no dude lol. Smite top building cinderhulk is ridiculous. Its a good way to keep it in the jungle.

darkdillMay 1, 20152 votes

Never said top-lane Smite should stay the same. Just that cutting the damage vs. Champions on Cinderhulk in half is a bit too much of a nerf. Maybe if the base damage was increased a little bit, or the amount you get per level wasn't so weak.

CatSithMay 1, 20154 votes

It is a amazing item already with the bonus HP buff, this wont affect it that much.

Sinister SnailMay 10, 20151 votes

Well, I think it does affect it quite a bit, but you are right that I doubt it will lose much popularity.

Knight SoIaire May 1, 20151 votes

well thats one thing the other was that ppl took smite top only to cheese that cinderhulk

i dont like the nerf because its harsh but at the same time cinderhulk became clearl op

SEKAIMay 1, 20152 votes

Cinderhulk is on the problematic side of thing it doesn't take a genius to figure that out and I agree completely.

The problem is Riot gutting that item that single-handedly make all tanks viable again, while buffing/changing not one but 2 offense items that are built by almost everybody (or at least one of them has the history of) and are broken OP by themselves since they just offer too darn much, much like the item they are trying to nerf in the patch.

Where is the sense and reason in that?

MrSc0ttyMay 1, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Expected, can't say I didn't see that coming.

Now squishy mains are happy and will stop crying about how they are supposed to one shot a fed tank, and are supposed to sustain and survive when building cheese 0 defense all offense.

Classic Riot, classic.

Can you stop mindlessly catering towards them please?

And tanks are supposed to kill squishies building all defense? As a tank main, I don't get where you're going with this.

Nucleophilic atkMay 1, 20152 votes

Yes, this is one of the things that annoy the shit out of me. Someone will be like, "I don't think tanks should be able to kill me with 0 damage items". Then dumb dumbs will jump in and say, "stfu nuub u building 0 defense so how can u acpect to sustain??"

Why do people think you should be able to do good damage with 0 offense if you can't take damage with 0 defense?

SEKAIMay 1, 20151 votes

Let's be real, Cinderhulk's damage really isn't that much of a big deal if you actually have any form of resistance.

Problem is, squishy mains are generally used to playing cheese 5 offernse + boot build every single game and expect things to just work out every time.

Cinderhulk was the wake up call, and Riot is too dumb to realise.

I get it, it needs a nerf. But is a gut on top of 2 offensive item's buff justifiable? No.

Nucleophilic atkMay 1, 20152 votes

Lol, I'm not saying the damage is high....I'm not saying the item needs nerfed at all! I'm just saying it is a really dumb arguemtn to say "you shouldn't be able to take damage with 0 defensive items but tanks should be able to do damage with 0 offensive ones." There are really only a few problematic junglers with it. Instead of just adjusting grag and sej and maybe naut, they are going to shit on the item. I guess they didn't see how badly that went when they did it with WW and jungler item. Maybe someday they will learn lol.

BluePolarizerMay 10, 20151 votes

because of base damage being a thing.

Nucleophilic atkMay 11, 20151 votes

Base resistances/health is also a thing.

BluePolarizerMay 11, 20151 votes

Amumu with item 3717 item 3151 item 3116 item 3001 item 3075 item 3020 SHOULD be doing damage. It'd be nuts if he wasn't.

Nucleophilic atkMay 11, 20151 votes

Honestly, did you even fucking read dude? I literally said "tanks building 0 damage items". You have given me a tank building 5 damage based items.

BluePolarizerMay 11, 20151 votes

They'll still be tanky. Base resistances only get you so far. Most tanks I see that need to carry build pen items. Most tanks also have base ult damage on par with ADCs, mids and tops which is quite substantial.

SEKAIMay 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

And tanks are supposed to kill squishies building all defense? As a tank main, I don't get where you're going with this.

The damage really isn't all that high (It really doesn't kill, if the squishies actually build some form of defense beside running their generic cheese all damage build every single game), I know it's problematic since it's better than Sunfire and all that.

But really does it really warrant a gut with a BotRK's buff? No.

Let's not even forget that their passives don't even stack, so there is no way people are gonna build them both in 1 match. So tanks are gonna either build Cinderhulk and help their early clears slightly and be useless again in TF due to their almost non-existence besides their CC, or they build Sunfire by selling Cinderhulk after early which is pretty pointless and impossible.

Tanks imo are gonna just fade back into obscurity again, just like before.

MrSc0ttyMay 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The damage really isn't all that high (It really doesn't kill, if the squishies actually build some form of defense beside running their generic cheese all damage build every single game), I know it's problematic since it's better than Sunfire and all that.

But really does it really warrant a gut with a BotRK's buff? No.

Let's not even forget that their passives don't even stack, so there is no way people are gonna build them both in 1 match. So tanks are gonna either build Cinderhulk and help their early clears slightly and be useless again in TF due to their almost non-existence besides their CC, or they build Sunfire by selling Cinderhulk after early which is pretty pointless and impossible.

Tanks imo are gonna just fade back into obscurity again, just like before.

See, if you're counting Sunfire/Cinderhulk as a damage item that should help you kill squishies, then BT should count as a defensive item enough that it should help you survive against tanks building minimal offense.

Look, the items not gutted. It's just more focused to be good against monsters, which is all tanks wanted in the first place. Tank players said "hey Riot Nautilus and Rammus are awesome but it sucks that Lee sin gets to instagib jungle camps with his completed jungle item but we suck at that" and riot said

"Sure here have this item that clears camps"

"yay!"

"Also it gives huge bonus health for your health building needs! Scaling!"

"YAY!"

"Also it's a huge offensive item against champions meaning you'll be super OP and top and support laners will build smite leading to inevitable whining and nerfs"

"Wait no riot stop"

SEKAIMay 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

See, if you're counting Sunfire/Cinderhulk as a damage item that should help you kill squishies, then BT should count as a defensive item enough that it should help you survive against tanks building minimal offense.

Look, the items not gutted. It's just more focused to be good against monsters, which is all tanks wanted in the first place. Tank players said "hey Riot Nautilus and Rammus are awesome but it sucks that Lee sin gets to instagib jungle camps with his completed jungle item but we suck at that" and riot said

"Sure here have this item that clears camps"

"yay!"

"Also it gives huge bonus health for your health building needs! Scaling!"

"YAY!"

"Also it's a huge offensive item against champions meaning you'll be super OP and top and support laners will build smite leading to inevitable whining and nerfs"

"Wait no riot stop"

I made a thread earlier which I supposedly flesh out my point better, I hope, but it's not receiving positivity so idk.

What I am really look for is not that they un-nerf Cinderhulk, it does way out of what it's intended, it needs it.

But the problem is those unwanted buffs on the side and the fact Cinderhulk and Sunfire shouldn't have shared an unique passive in the first place.

Similar effect shouldn't be the reason to warrant an unique passive tag, it's there to prevent over stacking on items of similar use that are most likely very powerful if stacked.

If the Cinderhulk is expected to be used for different purpose, at different phase and on different role to those who would build Sunfire then there is no point to restrict building both. It's like saying you can't build IE alongside Hydra, it's just absurd imo.

EDIT: Also to address on the squishy problem, I will always stand by my opinion that if tanks have damage, then squishies should at least expect to build some defense. Be it the damage source is from Cinderhulk, Sunfire, Thornmail or whatever.

MrSc0ttyMay 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I made a thread earlier which I supposedly flesh out my point better, I hope, but it's not receiving positivity so idk.

What I am really look for is not that they un-nerf Cinderhulk, it does way out of what it's intended, it needs it.

But the problem is those unwanted buffs on the side and the fact Cinderhulk and Sunfire shouldn't have shared an unique passive in the first place.

Similar effect shouldn't be the reason to warrant an unique passive tag, it's there to prevent over stacking on items of similar use that are most likely very powerful if stacked.

If the Cinderhulk is expected to be used for different purpose, at different phase and on different role to those who would build Sunfire then there is no point to restrict building both. It's like saying you can't build IE alongside Hydra, it's just absurd imo.

EDIT: Also to address on the squishy problem, I will always stand by my opinion that if tanks have damage, then squishies should at least expect to build some defense. Be it the damage source is from Cinderhulk, Sunfire, Thornmail or whatever.

If Thornmail, Sunfire, and Cinderhulk count as offensive items for tanks (pure defensive stats with offensive effects) then Botrk and Bloodthirster are defensive items for carries (offensive stats with defensive active/passives)

Also, most carries build GA (defensive stats defensive passive) whereas I NEVER build an offensive item as a tank...

junglerboy16May 1, 20159 votes

They want top laners to stop using it, so they are nerving its champion combat strength while buffing its minion and monster combat strength (especially early on where it is supposed to be most impactful). I think this is a very heavy handed way of achieving that goal, but it will have the desired effect by making sunfire cape notably better vs champions (although that's pathetic considering how weak sunfire cape is).

Cinderhulk will be even better for early level clearing (where it's AoE is supposed to be strongest) but won't be so overwhelmingly good late game, just really good instead of absurdly good.

MrBuffingtonMay 1, 20153 votes

What I don't understand is why this iteration still does bonus damage to minions; if they wanted laners to stop using it, why not just restrict the bonus damage to monsters?

junglerboy16May 1, 20153 votes

I agree there, they should make sunfire deal bonus damage to minions and cinder hulk deal bonus damage to monsters. With that, sunfire gets pushed to its usual niche as a tank split push item, and Cinderhulk is solidly a jungle item.

x No HeartMay 1, 20157 votes

Welp, RIP tank meta. I've loved every second of you.

VenowolfMay 1, 20154 votes

Btork buff, BC, and noe more nerfs on Cinderhulk, this need to stop now.

yukonlMay 1, 20153 votes

The point of Cinderhulk was to buff the god awful clearing speeds of early tank junglers, especially those without sustain.

It wasn't meant to buff the dueling potential of tank junglers, which most of them shouldn't be proficient at compared to actual dueling champions.

Jungle Lux GodMay 1, 20152 votes

I don't thing it's overkill.

If you are playing the kind of tank champions that Cinderhulk is designed for, you will not care about the damage you deal.

The only time you will care is in the early game, where tank junglers are most vulnerable to invades and need that damage the most. And this is fine because tank junglers are not supposed to be able to survive early invades without greatly outplaying your opponent. The damage bonus on monsters also makes this item better for junglers when they don't get invaded because the damage vs monsters is a lot stronger early, even when compared to a fully stacked live Cinderhulk, so tank jungles will universally be able to achieve their late game, assuming their opponents don't snowball their lanes ahead of your team or invade your jungle.

If you still think it's overkill, consider the fact that a lot of top players consider the item overpowered. In addition, almost every jungler in competitive is picking up Cinderhulk, and some top laners are trading their flash for smite just to use Cinderhulk and Skirmisher's Sabre. For Smite to replace the summoner spell so good it became mandatory on nearly every champion in the game means that something is seriously overpowering with Cinderhulk to make these laners make that switch.

CindikleMay 1, 20152 votes

The point of the damage was to help clear speed. Not make them masters of teamfight damage.

Tanks will still be good. If not great. This change is better than re-balancing every other champion around it.

AbyssionKnightMay 1, 20152 votes

The problem was that this item was crowding out Sunfire Cape. Why build sunfire if I can build cinderhulk and have higher tank stats and more damage?

The items damage potential had to be nerfed so Sunfire doesn't become irrelevant.

Celeste BenalMay 1, 20152 votes

item 3068 Deals 26 damage at level 1 and 43 damage at level 18. item 3725 currently deals 17-25.5 damage at level 1, and 34-51 damage at level 18. After the change it will deal 16 damage at level 1 and 26 damage at level 18 to champs, and ofc double that (32/52) to minions and monsters.

Cinderhulk will be more effective for wave clearing and farming than Sunfire Cape late game, and much better than the current Cinderhulk for farm/clear early. It will be about the same as current for farm/clear late game.

For pvp Cinderhulk will be significantly worse than current and Sunfire.

Op success. If you want to swap from farm mode to kill mode later, you can sell Cinderhulk for Sunfire. But you will also be giving up your %HP bonus. Fortunately Sunfire comes with a healthy (pun intended) +450HP bonus and 45 armor. If it were just the HP, I would say not worth it. But the armor helps a lot.

Edit: Or you can build both. The bonus HP will multiply with the %HP bonus, you get some armor to boot, and you will get the best of both immolates at all times.

PatMcGroynMay 2, 20152 votes

The damage isn't what's broken about this item, it's the 25% bonus health. Shit needs to get reduced to 20% or even 15%.

Extreme TrollerMay 1, 20151 votes

top and support will still pick smite. Cinderhulk stats gold went from 4700+gold stats to 4200, it still unbelievable op. the +25% hp and 20% reduction combined to true damage, free gold on jungle and 300hp alone is worth well over 3000gold stats. the magic dmg aoe is just cherry on the cake

x No HeartMay 1, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Extreme Troller,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cHEu8ih9,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-05-01T01:38:38.624+0000)

top and support will still pick smite. Cinderhulk stats gold went from 4700+gold stats to 4200, it still unbelievable op. the +25% hp and 20% reduction combined to true damage, free gold on jungle and 300hp alone is worth well over 3000gold stats. the magic dmg aoe is just cherry on the cake

Thankfully somebody in this thread knows what they're talking about, it appears some people don't agree with my proposal to hit Challenging Smite instead. Honestly the Health portion isn't too much of an issue. If you're just a CC bot, you're only as impactful as your spells. Health just helps you maintain presence throughout the fight, but you won't get too many spell rotations out of it.

Sinister SnailMay 10, 20151 votes

Good nerf. I like tanks being viable (mostly so I don't see so many goddamn assassins in mid lane...) but some of their numbers are a bit overtuned. This seems fine.