@Riot Axes and Riot Meddler - Will You Address Karma in 2017 at All?

Winterkill··23 votes·2,993 views

I want a positive answer as to why she has not been addressed, at all in 4 years, in regards to her identity or kit. After numerous failed attempts at buffing her kit numbers, is your team finally going to do the type of work on Karma that she really needs? We do not want another year of no communication, work done on her that you nerf three to four months later, and half worked on content you have been giving us since day one. There is a ton of problems with current Karma. A VGU is not needed since, in regards to older champions with even worse models, Karma doesn't necessarily need it. Could Karma benefit a lot from a properly fleshed out visual update? Yeah, but not at the expense of a champion like Mordekesier or even Pantheon.

Karma mains are not upset with the fact that her rework missed the mark. Everyone makes a mistake and it is better to learn from it if anything. The problem is for four years you have not communicated anything with Karma mains, you continue to give us half worked on content, and you are not addressing the actual problems with Karma.

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  • Identity and Purpose -

Karma's identity is her biggest problem. Her kit promotes her to be a bunch of different things, but not actually being good at one thing. Karma was originally a battlemage with abilities that could be used on allies, essentially making her second role as a support. Karma is now nothing more than a shield bot that presses one button, E or E+R, late game. With the rework and over the years, you have slowly turned her into this mess of different roles and kit that make absolutely no sense for her character or what she used to do. Healthy change is great. Riot, you didn't do that. You took things from her identity and kit away from her and made her into what she is today.

Karma needs to be brought back to her roots. She needs to be reworked slightly back to a battlemage. The biggest change you can make on her is bringing back her shield bomb or a variance of it. It was liked by a lot of people and you removed it for a particular reason . . . . that could have been balanced and figured out. Karma is a leader that is supposed to lead her allies in and out of battle, while also being this dominating force herself in battle. What good is it if I sit in the back . . . . . pressing E or E+R the entire game . . . it doesn't fit her theme . . . . and it really isn't playing up her battlemage role.

  • Playstyle -

Karma goes from being very oppressive early game as a mage, to being nothing but a full-fledged shield bot late game. If I want to play Karma mid or top, I can build as much AP and play like a mage all I want. In the end I am not going to be doing anything but shielding my allies late game. She has the worst AP ratios mid to late game . . .. I mean even after 6 she falls off bad. I go from playing a mage . . . . so a shield bot late game. I find Karma the most enjoyable the first couple minutes of the game because that is how she is supposed to be played.

  • Ways To Fix Karma -

Return Karma to her glory days . . . . of being a battlemage. Her old kit was way too strong . . . . but that doesn't mean she has to exist as she is today. There are parts of her new kit that are enjoyable . . . . Here are just a few examples you can actually address the problems wrong with Karma:

  1. Rework her mantra system completely and give Karma a meaningful passive. Karma's current passive is alright; however, is it really playing up what she is actually supposed to be doing? Wouldn't it also be nice to actually . . . . see her gathering something? Enough said.

  2. Give the second tick of damage, the explosion, true damage that scales better late game. It will help mage Karma late game. Her early game damage may need to be adjusted for this to happen.

  3. Give Karma back her shield bomb. It was liked by almost all Karma mains. It is very missed. No one likes the group shield that promotes a boring playstyle.

  4. Give Karma a completely different W+R.

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I created this thread, yet another one of the many created the last 4 years, to give Riot a chance to communicate with us about Karma. I am staying positive and hoping for the best. 4 years with no communication, half worked on content, and a Ryze rework every year . . . . has set my expectations VERY low.

  • Stay Frosty

Hiemal.

86 Comments

IxtaliKing7 votes
  1. Give the second tick of damage, the explosion, true damage that scales better late game. It will help mage Karma late game. Her early game damage may need to be adjusted for this to happen.

I agree with pretty much everything else but this, no true damage bro. Too much true damage going on in the rift at the moment.

Winterkill1 votes

Agreed. That is something I threw in there just for the sake of an idea towards mage Karma.

IxtaliKing5 votes

Karma's problem as a mage isn't that she doesn't have damage, it's that she doesn't have damage options and her damage is unreliable. Making her RQ ground targeted would help in that regard, and restoring her damage options in RW and RE would also.

Bunb0t6 votes

I wish they would just revert the rework >.> Old karma wasn't played because they never let her be played. She was no more complicated than any of their new champions.

IxtaliKing10 votes

As much as I agree with the sentiment, her rework did bring some improvements, a straight up revert wouldn't be wise. What they can do (and should do) is bring back some of the things that made Karma special like her shieldbomb and an updated version of that tether "clothesline" mechanic, since she's meant to be Battle Mage/Enchanter. Riot already know that she didn't need the kind of rework she got, they know they've ruined her.

Bunb0t3 votes

{quoted}

As much as I agree with the sentiment, her rework did bring some improvements, a straight up revert wouldn't be wise. What they can do (and should do) is bring back some of the things that made Karma special like her shieldbomb and an updated version of that tether "clothesline" mechanic, since she's meant to be Battle Mage/Enchanter. Riot already know that she didn't need the kind of rework she got, they know they've ruined her.

Agreed. I miss my "who?" Jokes and fans :(

Winterkill2 votes

Agreed.

TNHA Baritone6 votes

Is it weird that she is my favorite champion and I have made quite a few posts regarding her (even getting Meddler's attention) and yet right now, I have the hardest time thinking about what she should be. All I know is that this shield-bot bullcrap is so boring and non-interactive.

I feel like there's no motivation to go out of your way to play hundreds of games to master her. A typically wise player with 10 Karma games can perform just as well as a player such as myself with a thousand games. There's only so much things that experienced Karma players can do to separate themselves (Tank Karma was a good example).

If I were to say one change to her gameplay that could fix all of her problems, it would be to raise her DIFFICULTY by adding some form of mechanic that makes or breaks a Karma player. I know her Mantra decision-making is pretty demanding and can be a game-changer, but it's not unique to her. Many champions demand spot-on decision making.

From a support perspective, and I may be wrong, but I believe that most of her issues also stem from her being a jack of all trades. However, most generalist champions do actually have some specific thing that they are known (ie: Thresh's hook or Lee's kick) for and I don't think being an AOE shielder is...right for any champion. Not when you have items like Locket that can do that for you.

I really want Karma to be able to stay in the mid lane and still have an effect in the bot lane like most utility mages (Lux, Lulu, Zyra), but if Riot can make a version of her that captures a clear and cohesive theme (through both aesthetics and gameplay) while making her more like Orianna (in terms of the lane played; Orianna is almost never seen in the bot lane even though she carries a lot of utility and disruption) I'd prefer that over nothing.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

Is it weird that she is my favorite champion and I have made quite a few posts regarding her (even getting Meddler's attention) and yet right now, I have the hardest time thinking about what she should be. All I know is that this shield-bot bullcrap is so boring and non-interactive.

Why do we force this on the entire support role then and why is it not obvious that this is why no one wants to play it?

Sorry if this is out of nowhere but I can't get anyone to realize what I'm saying on the matter. Hoping to start a conversation.

Winterkill4 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MonC8imv9fo

She is supposed to be a battlemage that can use her abilities on allies. Karma is supposed to be a leader and graceful warrior on the battlefield. Is she doing any of that? No. She is spamming mass shields in the back and building items to amplify the strength of it . . . . . . doing . . . . . nothing . . . . else . . . . . but pressing . . . . . . one . . . . . button . . . . . . . mid . . . . . to . . . . . late . . . . . game.

Swarovsko5 votes

"Her kit promotes her to be a bunch of different things, but not actually being good at one thing" that's actually wrong wtf, you probably want to say that to Sona, not Karma for sure. Have you at least played Karma support ONCE? She has one of the best poke early game and is basically able to throw HUGE shields for the whole teamfight late game, keeping her ADC alive 80% of the times. I agree she's garbage mid, especially after 6.

Also, Ryze needed to be reworked more than Karma did simply because Ryze was too strong, just the fact that he could permanently keep w'd his opponents says it all.

Winterkill2 votes

Karma is a woman of indomitable will and unbound spiritual power. She is the soul of Ionia made manifest and an inspiring presence on the battlefield, shielding her allies and turning back her foes. A strong leader torn between tradition and revolution, Karma seeks to protect the peace of Ionia - by force if necessary.

Karma became a formidable leader of the Ionian resistance, but the conflict did not end when Noxus's armies fled the Ionian shores.

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Also looking at Karma's old kit, you can see how she went from being a battlemage and played more like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MonC8imv9fo

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You know, current Karma is doing exactly what she is supposed to do: sitting back and pressing E+R the entire game. Using E mid to late game, but doing no damage what so ever. As a Karma player I do amazing damage early game, probably too much damage, at the expense of any damage after level 6. I can build as much magic pen and AP I want, but I will never be able to be played like I used to. I mean my lore says I am supposed to be a formidable leader of indomitable will and unbound spiritual power. I am the soul of Ionia and an inspiring presence on the battlefield . . . . . . and will use force if I need to. It's ok . . . I'll sit in the back and press E+R the entire game. It's ok. Support Karma players, like this one, really know who Karma was and is supposed to be.

summoner 11

Swarovsko2 votes

I already read her lore and yes, I know who Karma is/should be. I think you are belittling her too much when you say "E+R the entire game" "sit back and press...". She does more than just E+R, she can catch people out of positioning with her W, force flashes, amazing poke with Q and other things, she just doesn't sit back and press R+E. Her R+E is fine. As you said, she's a leader and you can clearly see that when she basically engage/disengage with her R+E, she has identity issues, it's true but mostly because of her Q, W and passive. Her R+E combo is the only thing which fits Karma thematically, dunno why you're so disappointed by the only good thing on her kit.

IxtaliKing5 votes

As you said, she's a leader and you can clearly see that when she basically engage/disengage with her R+E, she has identity issues, it's true but mostly because of her Q, W and passive. Her R+E combo is the only thing which fits Karma thematically, dunno why you're so disappointed by the only good thing on her kit.

Maybe he's disappointed because her once iconic spell has been reduced to nothing more than an overturned, non-interactive AoE shield and Ms boost. RE no longer fits Karma thematically, nothing in her kit does and thats the problem.

Swarovsko3 votes

R+E combo fits her thematically IMO. She's a leader, she's supposed to leadpeople, she knows when her team should retreat/fight, and I can only see how good of a leader she is when, for example, you're contesting the dragon with your team, the enemy LeBlanc misses her W+E combo, you now know your team is advantaged since LeBlanc can only use 2 spells, and what's a better way to say "GO" (OH WOW! JUST WHAT LEADERS DO! But it doesn't fit her thematically because... KingKold93) with her R+E? Her R+E combo is a creative way to lead people(ms boost) and inspire them (the huge AOE shield), let them feel safe because they're guided by a leader and a leader knows what to do. Like it or not, it fits her thematically. Just because you don't like her R+E combo it doesn't mean it doesn't fit Karma, try to be more objective next time.

IxtaliKing5 votes

Oh okay. I can see your from your perspective, but is that all she is now... a leader? So that's what she's been reduced to, is that really okay? How many leaders do we currently have in the game? Off the top of my head I can think of Garen, Darius, Jarvan, Swain and Azir (maybe more idk), point is, is that all they are?

When I say I feel as if Riot has ruined Karma, I say that because she was so much more than she is now. It's all well and good her being a leader, but that really can't be her theme on its own. Karma once had a kind of duality as a theme which was unique to her, defensive abilities with hidden offensive attributes and that was something Riot said they liked about her.

I'm not saying her RE doesn't fit her thematically just because, I'm saying even as a leader; a leader leads from the front. At the moment Karma sends her team into battle from the back lines and kites with Q until she can RE again. That doesn't really say leader to me, it's non-interactive and it's Boring IMO. That's all I'm saying.

Swarovsko1 votes

I didn't say she's just a leader, I just couldn't understand why you people were complaining a lot about her R+E when it's the only decent thing she has and what makes her viable, even in competitive.

IxtaliKing2 votes

I know you're not saying she's just a leader, but what else is there to her thematically that you can see? That is our problem. She's no longer Karmic, she no longer has duality and her "Enlightened One" trope has been hamstrung by her over simplified Mantras and Mantra specific builds.

Riot had to overtune RE to encourage it's use because they realised they destroyed her Mantra diversity with her 5.10 changes. Her overtuned RE made her more than competitively viable, it made her pick or ban - that's not healthy and it's now being nerfed on pbe as a result of it. That's why we have a problem with it, because we care about Karma a lot and want to see her in a genuinely good place.

The Yetii Rider3 votes

Problem with shield bomb is that it offers no reaction time. Even Orianna's Command: Shockwave has a cast time and is very telegraphed.

Until someone suggests a way of adding genuine counterplay to the shield bomb I will continue to strongly oppose it.

IxtaliKing5 votes

When did riot say the reaction time was a problem?

  1. The spell needed a champ or a minion to be used
  2. It didn't provide any kind of cc
  3. It did about 40 damage more than her basic Q late game
  4. It was an ult

Unless you're talking about the original shield bomb, that was a nasty nuke.

Teridax682 votes

The problem with pre-rework Karma's shield bomb was that it dealt massive damage in a manner that was impossible to truly react to, as both you and The Yetii Rider mentioned, but the issue with her post-rework shield bomb was that, more often than not, it ended up serving no real purpose of its own. If current Karma wants more damage, she goes for RQ instead, and more often than not RE is used to either initiate or escape, not necessarily provide more in-combat damage. I'd love to see her shield bomb return, and so in basic ability form, but it would have to require some sort of delay in order to be as powerful as it deserves.

IxtaliKing4 votes

Reworked Karma's shield bomb was a part of her sustained damage pattern, it meant that she could contribute reasonable damage whilst protecting her team and still have the option to contribute further with her basic Q and W. Her Mantra options now are poorer than prior to the 5.10 update because they've been simplified too much.

I'm not understanding where this sudden talk of a delay is coming from, it's not necessary. There are champions with much stronger instant AoE abilities like Annie's W and R which nuke super hard and potentially stun, and Orianna's dissonance, which has higher scaling. Karma literally lights up and start talking before she uses any of her mantras, and for shield bomb in particular she has to move in range of the target, that's counterplay enough. If you're within range of her shieldbomb you're within range of her target's abilities also, the same threat remains.

Teridax682 votes

{quoted}

Reworked Karma's shield bomb was a part of her sustained damage pattern, it meant that she could contribute reasonable damage whilst protecting her team and still have the option to contribute further with her basic Q and W.

Her RQ still offered more damage, though, and the typical positioning for RE meant that its damage usually got largely wasted. You were never going to use RE primarily for its damage, which is why it was never a proper shield bomb in the first place, and there were extremely few situations where you could use all components of RE efficiently at the same time.

{quoted}

I'm not understanding where this sudden talk of a delay is coming from, it's not necessary. There are champions with much stronger instant AoE abilities like Annie's W and R which nuke super hard and potentially stun, and Orianna's dissonance, which has higher scaling. Karma literally lights up and start talking before she uses any of her mantras, and for shield bomb in particular she has to move in range of the target, that's counterplay enough. If you're within range of her shieldbomb you're within range of her target's abilities also, the same threat remains.

Karma's Mantra is instant, and is deliberately designed to not delay or interrupt her combat pattern, as is the case with every other empowerment-type ultimate, so it's pretty much the same as casting a basic ability immediately. Orianna's Dissonance may be instant, but it's attached to an object that always takes time to travel, and as The Yetii Rider mentioned, her ult has a very significant delay. Annie's W and R are instant, but are much shorter-ranged, and even then, her instant-cast, practically unavoidable damage makes her notoriously unhealthy even to this day.

The thing is, the case for adding a delay is very easy to make: it naturally adds counterplay and even gives Karma some measure of additional power by using her shield bomb as a means of dispersing enemies, instead of just nuking them instantly. Karma's a champion whose gameplay largely revolves around creating areas of threat that enemies have to maneuver away from, so a shield bomb with a delay would be perfectly in line with that. Perhaps there is some intrinsic value to having an instant shield bomb, but that's an argument you have to make, any "why not?" isn't really the best way of going about it.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Her RQ still offered more damage, though, and the typical positioning for RE meant that its damage usually got largely wasted. You were never going to use RE primarily for its damage, which is why it was never a proper shield bomb in the first place, and there were extremely few situations where you could use all components of RE efficiently at the same time.

That's not the point I'm making, since her rework in 3.5 RQ always had the most potential damage, but it requires set up to hit both parts - because counterplay. REs damage was more about punishing aggression (which tied in nicely with the Karmic theme), not about providing the most damage - that's what RQ is for.

Karma's Mantra is instant, and is deliberately designed to not delay or interrupt her combat pattern, as is the case with every other empowerment-type ultimate, so it's pretty much the same as casting a basic ability immediately.

Best case scenario: Karma uses mantra and instantly uses a spell before her opponent can react.

Orianna's Dissonance may be instant, but it's attached to an object that always takes time to travel, and as The Yetii Rider mentioned, her ult has a very significant delay.

I could say it takes Karma time to walk within range of her ally, but admittedly that would be reaching lol. In all seriousness though, Orianna has ways of making sure you take that QW damage. The shieldbomb might be unavoidable when you're within its range, but the damage wasn't crazy and it required experience and good decision making to get the most out of it.

The thing is, the case for adding a delay is very easy to make: it naturally adds counterplay and even gives Karma some measure of additional power by using her shield bomb as a means of dispersing enemies, instead of just nuking them instantly.

Karma's kit was full of counterplay before she primarily became a shield bot tbh. If shield bomb had a delay (which I'm not entirely against, I just don't see the need), what additional power would you add?

Karma's a champion whose gameplay largely revolves around creating areas of threat that enemies have to maneuver away from, so a shield bomb with a delay would be perfectly in line with that.

This sounds a lot like a disruptor. It's interesting seeing how people view her, says a lot about how messy her kit is.

Perhaps there is some intrinsic value to having an instant shield bomb, but that's an argument you have to make, any "why not?" isn't really the best way of going about it.

Honestly I have no argument against it, because I'm not actually against it lol. I'm just trying to understand the need for the delay. It seemed like this argument for a delay stemmed from Riot getting of the shied bomb without really saying anything beyond wanting to buff her passive.

Teridax682 votes

{quoted}

REs damage was more about punishing aggression (which tied in nicely with the Karmic theme), not about providing the most damage - that's what RQ is for.

Did it achieve its job, though? My point is that, no matter how you slice it, RE's damage did not have a significant impact on her kit, which is why it was cut. It might be bad for her theme, but in practice it did not really change her gameplay.

{quoted}

Best case scenario: Karma uses mantra and instantly uses a spell before her opponent can react.

Which, as I said, is functionally the same as just using one spell, since Mantra has no cast time and induces no sort of delay or lockout. The "best case" you're mentioning is also generally the average case.

{quoted}

In all seriousness though, Orianna has ways of making sure you take that QW damage. The shieldbomb might be unavoidable when you're within its range, but the damage wasn't crazy and it required experience and good decision making to get the most out of it.

Orianna may be able to position the Ball in such a way that the enemy laner has to lose either CS or health, but in the end, it's a persistent object whose every movement carries a travel time. It is in no way equivalent to an instant-cast AoE ability with a significantly longer range. The RE damage wasn't crazy, but it was not significant, and Old Karma's shield bomb dealt massive, deceptive damage due to her old innate.

{quoted}

Karma's kit was full of counterplay before she primarily became a shield bot tbh. If shield bomb had a delay (which I'm not entirely against, I just don't see the need), what additional power would you add?

New Karma definitely has a ton of good counterplay, Old Karma... not so much. If you took New Karma and gave her a shield bomb, giving it a delay would allow the rest of her kit to be deflated to a minimum, and would also allow her shield bomb to deal more damage. I plugged a custom Karma rework in another post, which describes a bit better how I'd change Karma more comprehensively, but the general idea is that I think Karma could afford to have powerful, high-scaling damage on top of potent utility, all at fairly cheap mana costs, in exchange for delays on her damage and shorter range. Her shield bomb would effectively be a part of her standard damage combo, and not restricted to an ultimate, which would give her more persistent damage in exchange for more counterplay.

{quoted}

This sounds a lot like a disruptor. It's interesting seeing how people view her, says a lot about how messy her kit is.

That's true, though technically you can make any mage a Disruptor, since literally every AP champion has AoE of some kind, and can thereby create zones of threat, which is why I think the subclass needs either a much stronger definition or a redo. Karma specifically, though, is currently some kind of disruptor-enchanter-battle-artillery franken-mage, which is why she lacks a true niche.

{quoted}

Honestly I have no argument against it, because I'm not actually against it lol. I'm just trying to understand the need for the delay. It seemed like this argument for a delay stemmed from Riot getting of the shied bomb without really saying anything beyond wanting to buff her passive.

I think Riot themselves took away her shield bomb because they concluded it didn't achieve much in practice. For Karma fans, though, it was a large blow, because it was one of the very few mechanics that survived her overhaul, and essentially felt like she lost the last piece of her old identity. While I agree that her shield bomb didn't really do much for her in the end, I also think that means Karma's rework really ended up going too far, when there was much more Riot could have done to preserve aspects of her old identity and kit. Her shield bomb is iconic, and even if it had its problems on Old Karma, I think it could've survived perfectly well if it had had a delay added to it, much like Ivern's Triggerseed (which is basically Old Karma's shield bomb with a delay and some CC).

IxtaliKing2 votes

Did it achieve its job, though? My point is that, no matter how you slice it, RE's damage did not have a significant impact on her kit, which is why it was cut. It might be bad for her theme, but in practice it did not really change her gameplay.

I'd say it did achieve its job, it created an interactive playstyle which required the player to think carefully when choosing a Mantra. It also felt very satisfying and rewarding when you landed a good shield bomb knowing you traded damage, negated damage and got a huge mantra refund to empower your next ability. It had an optimal use and less optimal uses, meaning you could actually fail. Current RE can't fail now because it only has one use. In regards to why it was cut, what you're saying is speculation.

Moving this conversation forward, since our views aren't really all that different. How would propose this delay work? I think it could kind of make sense if the damage went off after the ms boost, that would be 1.5s though.

Teridax682 votes

{quoted}

Current RE can't fail now because it only has one use.

That's not entirely true. If you use it when your team's too spread out, or if by contrast an enemy wombo comboes you after you popped the ult, it will not have been used to full effect. Effectively, it has some optimal and suboptimal uses cases now, along with some failure cases (it's also important to decide when to use the ultimate, for example, and popping it at the wrong time can be costly), whereas previously, its use cases were a lot muddier.

{quoted}

In regards to why it was cut, what you're saying is speculation.

Riot themselves noted that cutting the damage from RW and RE allowed her different empowered abilities to have clearer use cases, and allow her specific contributions to stand out more (they didn't before because they were too muddied). I wouldn't say that she ended up with truly unique contributions in the end, but she did become more functional overall.

{quoted}

Moving this conversation forward, since our views aren't really all that different. How would propose this delay work? I think it could kind of make sense if the damage went off after the ms boost, that would be 1.5s though.

Making the damage go off at the end of the MS boost would be fine, and 1.5 is a good enough window for enemies to move out of the way. If you look further down along my post and take a look at the rework I suggested, my solution there is to make the shield and bomb components separate, set the bomb delay to 2 seconds, and allow both to be cast on top of each other instantly.

IxtaliKing2 votes

That's not entirely true. If you use it when your team's too spread out, or if by contrast an enemy wombo comboes you after you popped the ult, it will not have been used to full effect.

If your team is spread out you just RE where it's needed most, with current RE all you need to worry about is your allies positioning. That's why she's better in competitive, because there's coordination.

whereas previously, its use cases were a lot muddier.

Previously it's use cases had nuances which took time to understand.

Riot themselves noted that cutting the damage from RW and RE allowed her different empowered abilities to have clearer use cases, and allow her specific contributions to stand out more (they didn't before because they were too muddied). I wouldn't say that she ended up with truly unique contributions in the end, but she did become more functional overall.

All it did was lower her skill floor and ceiling, she just became easier to use. The trade offs for becoming easier to use were far more damaging to her as a character.

If you look further down along my post and take a look at the rework I suggested, my solution there is to make the shield and bomb components separate, set the bomb delay to 2 seconds, and allow both to be cast on top of each other instantly.

This rework looks familiar. I think your passive and R suggestions are interesting, but I feel as if Karma getting duality from her abilities simultaneously was one of the most attractive things about Karma. I like that you want to reintroduce her tether "clothesline" mechanic, I think that would be good for her. I don't like the E change being either a point and click nuke or a shield, it just doesn't resonate with me. Overall I appreciate the sentiment and how you went for a much more thematic approach to what we have now, but I think it would definitely alienate a lot of Karma players. Especially newer Karma players.

Teridax682 votes

{quoted}

If your team is spread out you just RE where it's needed most, with current RE all you need to worry about is your allies positioning. That's why she's better in competitive, because there's coordination.

Positioning is important, but so is gauging the appropriate situation for blowing the RE cooldown, especially since its lack of cooldown refresh on Mantra means it has a larger downtime than, say, RQ, which can potentially allow her to Mantra within the next few seconds again. If you use RE to initiate a teamfight, for example, you won't be able to use it to escape, whereas that was previously a possibility when the effect also dealt damage.

{quoted}

Previously it's use cases had nuances which took time to understand.

Nuance only goes so far. At the time when Karma received those changes, she was referred to as a RQ machine, rather than the RE beast she is now, because RQ was by far the most straightforward and effective choice in most situations. With her current scheme, putting bonus damage on all of her empowered abilities is wasteful when one ability is already the designated damage effect, and taking it out of RW and RE allowed those abilities to become stronger at their own respective specialized effects.

{quoted}

All it did was lower her skill floor and ceiling, she just became easier to use. The trade offs for becoming easier to use were far more damaging to her as a character.

What were the tradeoffs, though? In the end, removing the shield bomb and buffing her ulted root/shield allowed RE to be used more often, without compromising the use of her RQ. She also became more competitively viable, though also in part because she had her numbers over-inflated.

{quoted}

This rework looks familiar. I think your passive and R suggestions are interesting, but I feel as if Karma getting duality from her abilities simultaneously was one of the most attractive things about Karma. I like that you want to reintroduce her tether "clothesline" mechanic, I think that would be good for her. I don't like the E change being either a point and click nuke or a shield, it just doesn't resonate with me. Overall I appreciate the sentiment and how you went for a much more thematic approach to what we have now, but I think it would definitely alienate a lot of Karma players. Especially newer Karma players.

That's fair, I took a lot from Old Karma and not so much from New Karma. Regarding being able to use her basic ability effects simultaneously, I tried to do that with the iteration of Mantra there, which would allow all of her casts to instantly combine the effects of both versions, so if she popped Mantra she'd be able to lay down shield bombs immediately on herself and allies.

IxtaliKing5 votes

Nuance only goes so far. At the time when Karma received those changes, she was referred to as a RQ machine, rather than the RE beast she is now, because RQ was by far the most straightforward and effective choice in most situations.

You're right she was referred to as an RQ machine back then, she was an RQ machine all the way up to 6.6 when they over buffed her RE.

With her current scheme, putting bonus damage on all of her empowered abilities is wasteful when one ability is already the designated damage effect, and taking it out of RW and RE allowed those abilities to become stronger at their own respective specialized effects.

RW is a much weaker ability now, that ability used to be her duelling spell. Now it's just her emergency heal, and that additional root is a waste of her power budget. Her RE became a stronger shield, but killed off the last of Karma. I don't think it was worth it tbh, RE was fun before, now it's obnoxious and bland.

What were the tradeoffs, though?

She's now a lot less cohesive, distinct and she has basically no theme now. Not one single trace of the character she once was that people got attached to. Karma's rework is one of the few the community has never gotten over, that's saying something. Her skill cap is also barely above her skill floor, she offers no incentive to investing time into learning her beyond just... liking her. There's nothing to distinguish a 10 game Karma players from a 100 game Karma or even a 1000 game Karma, for what it's worth. That's a massive trade off imo.

She also became more competitively viable, though also in part because she had her numbers over-inflated.

Her over-inflated numbers are the reason she was picked up competitively. Early game bully, late game super reliable shield bot. It's sad.

That's fair, I took a lot from Old Karma and not so much from New Karma. Regarding being able to use her basic ability effects simultaneously, I tried to do that with the iteration of Mantra there, which would allow all of her casts to instantly combine the effects of both versions, so if she popped Mantra she'd be able to lay down shield bombs immediately on herself and allies.

I hope you keep up the reworks, I'd love to discuss them and give feedback in a designated thread :).

Teridax683 votes

{quoted}

She's now a lot less cohesive, distinct and she has basically no theme now. Not one single trace of the character she once was that people got attached to.

While I do think Karma has some good enough room for mastery progression, I can completely agree to this part of the criticism, and it's what ultimately got me to write down that custom rework. What hurts me the most about New Karma is that, despite her overhaul having given her more attention than she ever had pre-rework, it sent her down a design path that ultimately led to nowhere in particular. She's healthy and fun, but only because she mostly has copies of abilities that were already proven to be healthy and fun, and has no real identity of her own. Her overhaul was done without properly communicating with the playerbase, and made no real effort to try to preserve her iconic features, which is why people still complain about her rework to this day. It gave Riot valuable information in how to correctly overhaul subsequent champions, and her sacrifice paved the way for Sion, Poppy, Taric, etc., but I think she eventually needs to be revisited, as she lost too much for a benefit that ultimately proved to be fairly shallow.

What makes this even more difficult is that Old Karma and New Karma have now essentially become two completely different champions, and giving her any sort of VGU would have to find a way to reconcile both halves of her playerbase, and still create a viable kit at the end of it. In a way, it's kind of appropriate for Karma's theme, as she is perhaps the only champion in the game whose fanbase has become truly split in two.

IxtaliKing3 votes

her sacrifice paved the way for Sion, Poppy, Taric, etc., but I think she eventually needs to be revisited, as she lost too much for a benefit that ultimately proved to be fairly shallow.

That's EXACTLY what she was: a sacrifice. It's quite sad, and it hurts to see someone like GroovyLord say that she didn't even need the rework she got. Even if it does vindicate her rework's critics.

Arazhel1 votes

{quoted}

It gave Riot valuable information in how to correctly overhaul subsequent champions, and her sacrifice paved the way for Sion, Poppy, Taric, etc.

Was Taric truly correctly overhauled?

The Taric rework bears much resemblance to Karma's. I've been in the forums for a few years (although I've never posted before), and unless I've missed it I don't remember Riot communicating with us about his rework either, the few discussions Riot chipped in they said they couldn't tell us anything.

Even though the new Taric has much more direction than Karma does, the old one's strategic niche was essentially thrown away:

His kit took almost the opposite direction, and only a few bits remain that slightly resemble old Taric. Taric went from a damage/defensive (sometimes offensive) oriented support ( I guess you could call him a Juggernaut/Enchanter hybrid) to a almost purely defensive support (Warden/Enchanter hybrid). Doesn't sound like the opposite, but old Taric had mostly offensive buffs to his team, and the new Taric mostly shields them from harm.

I also dislike (along with a few other kit mechanics) that he's no longer viable toplane, because one of characteristics was that he could be a good fighter with somewhat supportive skills.

Thus i disagree with the Taric rework, the new Taric might be a good and healthy champion, but it was a bad rework. People that loved old Karma, can be assured that they are not alone in this regard.

Teridax682 votes

While I would personally like to tweak Taric in some small ways, I do think his rework was successful. Even though he lost his armor shred and AD/AP steroids, he still retained the most interesting aspects of his identity, namely his stun, his heal, and his status as an immobile fighter-support. My one criticism is that he often isn't encouraged to use his passive as much as he could, but otherwise he's significantly more fun and cohesive than old Taric, while still largely preserving his niche. Whereas Old Karma lost a lot of aspects that were worth preserving, Taric's stat auras carried no real gameplay in spite of their power, and even so, he still remains a great provider of AoE utility thanks to his healing and ult.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

{quoted}

When did riot say the reaction time was a problem?

  1. The spell needed a champ or a minion to be used
  2. It didn't provide any kind of cc
  3. It did about 40 damage more than her basic Q late game
  4. It was an ult

Unless you're talking about the original shield bomb, that was a nasty nuke.

  1. That just means that it scales off your allied champions' mobility, something that Riot cannot account for when balancing her.
  2. It provides a giant AOE slow if Karma has Rylai's.
  3. Her basic Q has a cast time, a travel time, and a clear animation. And she has to move into position to use it, as opposed to shield bomb, which can simply launch off an instant cast gap closer.
  4. Annie's Summon Tibbers is an ult with no cast time and a giant amount of AOE damage. People still bitch about it to this day.
IxtaliKing3 votes

That just means that it scales off your allied champions' mobility, something that Riot cannot account for when balancing her.

True, but it wasn't problem before. Not since her rework.

It provides a giant AOE slow if Karma has Rylai's.

Also true, but at the time still didn't justify buying Rylais on her. Wasn't a problem. There were many champs who have abused Rylais since, especially after it was buffed.

Her basic Q has a cast time, a travel time, and a clear animation. And she has to move into position to use it, as opposed to shield bomb, which can simply launch off an instant cast gap closer.

If she's in position to launch RE off an instant gap closer, she might be better off throwing an RQ (especially if the gap closer had cc).

Annie's Summon Tibbers is an ult with no cast time and a giant amount of AOE damage. People still bitch about it to this day.

Yep and that why people bitch about Summon Tibbers, it's a huge AoE nuke which can stun. If Summon Tibbers dealt 300 + 60% AP late game and couldn't stun, I don't think anyone would care that much.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

True, but it wasn't problem before. Not since her rework.

No, but it has the potential to be combined with Orianna, Malphite, Rengar, and in that situation it becomes very problematic at the highest levels of play. It was clearly a problem because it was removed.

Also true, but at the time still didn't justify buying Rylais on her. Wasn't a problem. There were many champs who have abused Rylais since, especially after it was buffed.

Yes, but it's a good enough reason not to bring it back now.

If she's in position to launch RE off an instant gap closer, she might be better off throwing an RQ (especially if the gap closer had cc).

And that's good. An RQ that combos with hard CC is good, it is spaced out over some time and rewards the Karma player's reaction time and aiming. It may be basic, but it's a lot less basic than pointing and clicking. And if the gap closer does not have hard CC, the enemy can simply dodge it. They can't do that with RE.

Yep and that why people bitch about Summon Tibbers, it's a huge AoE nuke which can stun. If Summon Tibbers dealt 300 + 60% AP late game and couldn't stun, I don't think anyone would care that much.

Riot minded enough to remove it.

IxtaliKing4 votes

No, but it has the potential to be combined with Orianna, Malphite, Rengar, and in that situation it becomes very problematic at the highest levels of play. It was clearly a problem because it was removed.

What's the difference between that and Orianna being able to attach her ball to an ally and instantly burst with W off of their gap closer?

Yes, but it's a good enough reason not to bring it back now.

I disagree, but that's your opinion and I respect it.

And if the gap closer does not have hard CC, the enemy can simply dodge it. They can't do that with RE.

If an enemy with Orianna's ball on them dives on you, you can't dodge that W either.

Riot minded enough to remove it.

Riot hasn't stated any reason for removing it beyond wanting to buff her passive and* improve mantra diversity, so this is pure speculation.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

The difference between Orianna and Karma is that Orianna does not function without gold. Karma does.

IxtaliKing2 votes

I didn't ask what the differences were between Karma and Orianna, I asked what was the difference between their instant damage interactions with divers (Ori W and Karma shield bomb). I'm just going to assume you didn't answer because you didn't know how to, and rest that case.

Edit: Also, Karma absolutely does not function without gold lol.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

I didn't ask what the differences were between Karma and Orianna, I asked what was the difference between their instant damage interactions with divers (Ori W and Karma shield bomb). I'm just going to assume you didn't answer because you didn't know how to, and rest that case.

Edit: Also, Karma absolutely does not function without gold lol.

Karma functions fine without gold. That's why she can be played support and Orianna cannot.

The difference between Command: Dissonance and Defiance is A) Command: Dissonance is either highly telegraphed by the Ball being on the target or not instant cast at all because the Ball needs to travel to the target and B) Command: Dissonance has an area of only 250. I don't know the exact number of Defiance because it has been removed but I believe it was much wider.

IxtaliKing3 votes

When Orianna's ball is on the target and they dive on you, her Dissonance is instant. Defiance is wider, not that it matters once you've been dived on and it doesn't slow on its own, unlike Dissonance which also does a bit more damage with a full build. Point is, it's not problem for Orianna and it wasn't for Karma.

chipndip12 votes

You realize Karma's an enchanter now, right? She's secondarily a battle mage.

That aside, Karma's an early game champion. Her identity in the game is rather..."eh", given she just does a mash of mage stuff, but it's not the biggest rework that needs to be done. She's in a healthy spot and she's competitively viable. Why throw that away? So she can be another mid game mage? She's strong early and falls off late. That's fine to have.

Sukishoo6 votes

No. Her primary role is a Mage, her secondary is a Support.

chipndip11 votes

Take it up with Riot. She's an Enchanter/Battle Mage.

Sukishoo6 votes

Lol. It's right in the client, so get your facts straight. They consider her a Mage first.

chipndip11 votes

You and whoever is upvoting you are both morons. The client doesn't have the official sub-classes in it.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

Enchanter (Hybrid Battle Mage). GG and no rematch.

Sukishoo7 votes

You're the moron. She's listed as "hybrid" if you actually look closer. Besides, she's always been a MAGE first and always will be regardless of the "sub-classes". Her rework made her into the mage she was meant to be.

chipndip11 votes

She's an Enchanter. Enchanters are mages. This is actually cancer to have to argue over.

Sukishoo5 votes

Champions that fit multiple roles are known as Hybird. It's listed right there next to her

-Karma (hybrid Battle Mage)

Mage will always be first for her or she would have been listed in-client as a support to begin with, end of story.

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