The Support Dilemma, or why riot needs to shiv MatPat’s spleen

Linna Excel··56 votes·3,911 views

I think that there’s a fundamental error in the game when it comes to support role. This is something pretty big on a level that comes down to both the design of champs, items, and game and the way players approach playing them. This is the core problem as to why a lot of people don’t seem to like supporting even though it’s a fun role to play for others. The true cause of this dilemma can be explored and understood by asking one simple question.

That question is: Why do you as a player hate having a Riven or Yasuo main on your team?

Now before you ask what Riven or Yasuo have to do with why people hate supporting, try to answer the question honestly. Why do you hate it when a Yasuo or a Riven main shows up on your team? I mean you are sitting there in your promos, one win means you rise up, one loss means it’s back to climbing back towards your promos. Just then a teammate picks Riven or Yasuo. Or with your luck, it’s a Riven going top, a Yasuo mid, and you are tilting so hard the boat just capsized.

The answer is pretty simple. It’s because it always feels like the Riven or Yasuo on the other team always feels like a higher elo smurf pub stomping your team while the Riven or Yasuo on your team are boosted animals that are constantly feeding or trying to start a 1v3 while on 20% health, in the enemy jungle, with no vision. You never seem to get the good ones, or rather you never seem to get the ones that make you want to facepalm so hard you slap yourself into next week or literally face check your computer monitor.

It’s like you are fighting against your teammates as much as you are fighting the enemy.

And that my friends, is the key to the biggest issue with support in terms of the long term health of the game. That is the big dilemma when it comes to the support role and why the mains deal with the role while people who never play support hate it so much.

So what exactly is this key and why does it exist you are probably asking.

Well it’s pretty simple. The key to why people hate supports comes down to a theory.

**A GAME THEORY! **

Hence the reference to MatPat in the title. Please don’t shiv him, I like his videos even if he never talks about real game theory and can be of a tinfoil hat guy from time to time. So what is real game theory all about and why is it so important to understanding what the support role is and the core problem it poses to the nonsupport mains? Well to answer that, let me briefly link to the wonderful people of scishow who talk about what real life game theory is at its heart.

https://youtu.be/MHS-htjGgSY

As you can see in the video, there are two types of game theory. Two ways of deciding how to optimally win a game. And it’s those two choices which are the fundamental aspect of this problem.

You see support as a role right now is designed with cooperative game theory in mind. There’s 5 players but 3.5 sources of steady income… no you can’t KS either. This means that someone has to be a jungler with half an income while one person has to be the support.

Now on a coordinated team of 5 players, this is fine. This is good even because the team can build around having 3.5 sources of income and then optimize themselves based on the conditions of the game. You know your role on the team. You know what your teammates can do. You can easily coordinate with them. You’ve got a shot caller you can trust. You’ve got enough experience to know how to cover for someone when he’s doing poorly. In the higher levels, you know he can claw back into the game after a poor start if he’s got enough time. Or he just picks poppy and no worries.

Now he’s the problem that 95% of players have to deal with: solo queue isn’t cooperative game theory, it’s competitive game theory, even on the same team.

For starters, most people playing support probably aren’t support mains. They are people who picked fill or got auto-filled into support. So right off the bat, they are in the eff you role on the team. Their role basically means they shouldn’t be getting money or building real items. Then they get paired with someone who was autofilled to ADC because ADC mains got tired of working with a non-support who got autofilled into the role coupled with constant 4 man ganks bottom. Bot lane is becoming the sewers of the game because nobody wants to be there and they are probably tilted before having to put up with their laning partner and 4-man ganks while getting none.

So how bad is solo queue?

Let me just put this here (this is a little dated, but this topic has been sitting on my HD for awhile):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI-XFRQ8qQI

If we’ve got one of the top players in the game saying he can’t trust his teammates, despite him getting put with master and challenger players, where exactly does that leave the rest of us? What does it mean for the bronzies, the silvers, the golds, the plats, and the low diamond players? What are we supposed to do?

The problem with support in this game is it has been optimized for a cooperative game experience when you’ve got a premade team of 5 people. While that’s a great thing for people playing in premade groups of 5, for the rest of us we are screwed. Thus autofill exists because there aren’t enough people willing to put up with supporting to go around. I mean the modern queue system is basically you can queue as whatever you want to, but if riot needs a support, you are going to be support. Then you just hate supporting all that much more after getting stuck with it.

So how is it for support mains?

Well, we kind of know what we are getting into as we decided to main the role, but if you want to look at it objectively, it’s still a bit rough even for the upsides we get out of it. You still have to give up a lot of potential to support an ADC you know nothing about, have minimal communication or experience with, and might leave you hanging when he decides to feed. You are still the guy expected to ward, but then you don’t have anyone escorting you around the map so you can safely ward. You’ve got no coordination on your teams and if someone makes a call, there’s a good chance it’s the wrong call or people ignore it anyways. Or you get a non-adc autofilled into ADC and watch as he doesn’t know how to right click on a minion, doesn’t know how to freeze a lane, and picks the wrong time to go all in. Or you get yelled at because you got 2 of your team’s 31 kills or took a CS that your ADC wouldn’t have gotten anyway.

The problem with solo queue support is you’ve got all the downsides of being a dedicated support without any of the upsides that a regular and reliable group of teammates bring. The problem with solo queue support is you are expected to be a team player when everyone else is looking out for himself and possibly failing at it. While I’m not saying that you can’t carry or it isn’t fun to support, what I am saying is that because solo queue, the support is the one asked to make the biggest investment in his teammates who aren’t really teammates. This investment then turns out to be a bad one in enough cases that turn people off from the role.

In solo queue, there are enough times that the people you are put with just don’t know how to be supported while asking the support player to give up CS and kills, which brings the whole experience down.

As a support I’m giving up money and XP for the rest of the team, and am probably the main guy warding without escort. If something goes wrong, I may not have the kit, the levels, or the items to cover for one or more teammates.

Supports are designed as multipliers, the problem with the role is sometimes we are expected to multiply a bunch of zeros. We make it easier for you to carry, but if you aren’t going to carry this game, we may not be playing a champ that can cover for you and even if we are, we are still missing XP and items to do the job well.

This is one of the big reasons I think that AP mages are taking over the support role. It’s becoming a case of, I’m better off playing a champ who can hard carry after getting a sightstone than being a pure support. I mean if you are better off being an AP mid who is behind in gold and levels than it is being a support, a lot of people are just going to be an alt-mid. Mids to support are the expected reaction to a situation where the mentality of “to my own self be true” takes over. BTW, that phrase actually means to be a self-serving SOB, there’s nothing noble about it. Just a FYI.

In the long term, this is working against riot’s goals of more teamwork because it means the only guy on the team whose job is to be concerned with the team is seeing that it’s better to just go it alone. That means the last vestige of teamwork is dying for league. For everyone who mains support and likes the role, there are a ton of people forced into the role who don’t want to be there, or there are people who like it but realize there’s a big flaw, even if they can live with it.

That leads to the big dilemma riot is facing. LCS and groups of 5 need a dedicated support because they can actually build around a support and be supported but for too many people. Supports are great in that environment. However the average player has had it with being the guy who is a dedicated support because he doesn’t want to keep multiplying zeroes and thinks if he got the role he queued for, he’d be winning this game. Being a support is much more problematic in that environment. Why should I bother to be a traditional support if there is a 50-50 chance my team’s ADC is just going to feed anyways? I might as well take a hard carry mid because he’s going to be dead weight often enough to justify me not taking a champ designed as a support most of the time.

This in turn is going to have its own consequences.

The first is champs like Soraka and Janna will probably have to be kept in an overpowered state. I mean if it becomes standard that the bot lane is filled with mages that when combined with ADCs can blow you and your ADC up very fast, in order to be viable you need to have a lot of healing and shielding stats. Hence we get the buffs to support items in terms of heal and shield power. Traditional supports needed a percentage scaling buff because without it, they’d be worthless.

The second big consequence is going to further destroy teamwork, and team sanity, in solo queue. You know that “support” Nunu guy who screws over his ADC by leaving him to hang? Well, I think the next natural step is more selfishness like that, but not in terms of counterjungling. What I’m talking about is a player on support Veigar, Malz, Brand, Zyra, Xerath, etc thinking to himself, “if I’m on a champ who can carry without CS, just think how much more I can carry if I actively farm”. So he sees how poorly his ADC did and thinks to himself, I’m glad I took all that CS, I need to do that more often. And he will.

Yep, I’m thinking the next step of support is probably going to be the farming support.

This isn’t something the league can control or punish. CS aren’t assigned to any one player. It’s also okay to screw over your ADC if you can make a case for it as evidenced by the “support Nunu” unbanning. I mean not farming on your support is fine for pros on coordinated teams, but that doesn’t describe most of the player base. The conditions are ripe for a player who is fed up with the crappy ADCs he’s getting and deciding he’s just going to take as many CS and kills as he can get because he doesn’t want to lose another series because he got autofilled to support someone who can’t right click. All he needs to think is “I trust my ADC as much as I trust a Riven or Yasuo main so I’m better off hogging all the kills and CS I can.”

Yes ADCs will be mad losing out on CS and kills, but screw those whiners. They are mad about everything. Just mute them and carry on.

Sooner or later people will try it.

Why?

Short games.

I’m serious. Games in LoL are getting shorter and shorter. You can’t count on a 40-75 minute epic slog anymore so you don’t really have time to waste as there isn’t much time for a comeback.

Coming into the game, you need to get as much of an advantage as possible as quickly as possible. You are on a champ who can CS well enough and will be able to carry the game if you get gold. You’ve got no idea if your ADC is going to be any good and by the time he proves that he isn’t, it could be too late in the game for you to farm up and take over. You've got a champ who needs both XP and Farm to scale more than a traditional support does. There certainly is both a reason and the ability for you to go ahead and just start farming up “as the support” and riot can’t stop you. Premade groups of 5 are about teamwork, but soloqueue is about mework.

So if I’m on support, where I may or may not want to be, I’ve got a champ who can farm and scales okay with farm and levels, I’ve got an ADC/team who I can’t automatically trust, and an MMR I only want to go up, why should I do the best thing possible for me? Why should I distribute my gold and XP to these feeders, who are only going to keep feeding with it? What if I have more fun getting gold and XP on support than I am with playing support the correct way? I mean if I’m having more fun, I think I’m winning more, more power to me right? This will show riot/the feeders for putting me in support.

In short, sooner or later, people playing support could very well ditch the idea of cooperative game theory and switch over to competitive game theory. When that happens, teamwork in this game is going to be even more dead than it is now.

So this is the support dilemma riot is going to be facing: either they reward and encourage cooperative game theory for supporting or the meta for bot lane could easily turn into an ugly competitive game theory.

79 Comments

S0kaX16 votes

Can somebody make a TL;DR? Because I'm not going to read the fricking chinese wall of text. http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/392/689/333.jpg

Dryditch36 votes

It's actually worth reading, but here's your TL;DR:

Supports are the whipping boy of the team. The fact that you don't necessarily have the ability to cover for one of your feeding teammates in full capacity as a traditional support means that more and more mid lane mages are going to show up in supp positions bot lane to use the reduced pressure to become carries.

Increased carry potential means supports are no longer multiplying zero when their team is behind, and instead are adding their own value to the team in the form of damage or CC or survivability.

Riot has to push mage supps out of bot lane and enforce a meta or they have to buff traditional supports to absurd levels in order to make them feel useful again and make them viable in soloqueue where there is no coordination.

S0kaX2 votes

Thank you.

Dryditch7 votes

No problem. OP explains it so much better than I did though.

FlameHalbrdOkido2 votes

{quoted}

It's actually worth reading, but here's your TL;DR:

Supports are the whipping boy of the team. The fact that you don't necessarily have the ability to cover for one of your feeding teammates in full capacity as a traditional support means that more and more mid lane mages are going to show up in supp positions bot lane to use the reduced pressure to become carries.

Increased carry potential means supports are no longer multiplying zero when their team is behind, and instead are adding their own value to the team in the form of damage or CC or survivability.

Riot has to push mage supps out of bot lane and enforce a meta or they have to buff traditional supports to absurd levels in order to make them feel useful again and make them viable in soloqueue where there is no coordination.

They will also need to find a way to change the game to be more cooperative game based.

Linna Excel1 votes

{quoted}

They will also need to find a way to change the game to be more cooperative game based.

Yes. However I think it'll be a long term goal for riot and not something they can do in short order.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cG4Xkgqy,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-26T01:53:23.535+0000)

Yes. However I think it'll be a long term goal for riot and not something they can do in short order.

hopefully they can get a team working on it soon, as long as they are working on it, it should be ok, but if they wait to long... they game is lost, they gotta get themselves out of this rut, if they succeed, the world will be theirs

Errlang3 votes

it's worth the read.

Melledoneus11 votes

I don't like Yasuo or Riven top because they pick another damage dealer where we could have had a tank, the case usually being that everyone else picks a squishy damage dealer.

Nymzo11 votes

Sadly, Riot keep thinking that giving up the end of the stick is a good idea.

You are right, ap mages supports WILL take control of the support role if Riot doesn't do anything. Not if, will.

You also forgot to mention that ap mages supports are also the reason why this abomination item 3107 is even allowed to exist.

VoraciousX1 votes

{quoted}

Sadly, Riot keep thinking that giving up the end of the stick is a good idea.

You are right, ap mages supports WILL take control of the support role if Riot doesn't do anything. Not if, will.

You also forgot to mention that ap mages supports are also the reason why this abomination item 3107 is even allowed to exist.

You forgot item 3504 item 3222 (the heal+shield power on it, not the actual item), item 3174 (the fact that they designed it for supports and stole it away from mid laners), new item 3190. This crap is all disgusting, played a few Karma games with all that + an AP item top lane(NOT IN SUPPORT) and still did really well, of course that was before Karma was nerfed, but it still probably works insanely well.

Nymzo3 votes

{quoted}

You forgot item 3504 item 3222 (the heal+shield power on it, not the actual item), item 3174 (the fact that they designed it for supports and stole it away from mid laners), new item 3190. This crap is all disgusting, played a few Karma games with all that + an AP item top lane(NOT IN SUPPORT) and still did really well, of course that was before Karma was nerfed, but it still probably works insanely well.

I don't see why the heal + shield is a problem? In fact, I think it's better to have this kind of scaling instead of ap.

Even most enchanters don't build item 3174, you don't need it.

The new locket is okay, remember we lost health and cdr in exchange of a better shield. It's just that with item 3107 is dumb as fuck.

Pika3101 votes

Censer was a noobtrap for well over a season after it was created. Only now that it has Windspeaker is it even playable, albeit no less "invisible power" than before. More than once I've heard people say, "Oh, we have a Censer. I didn't even notice."

Spoofghoul8 votes

TLDR

supports cannot carry

and in a environment where there is no coordinated play

well that leaves you at the mercy of your team

tanks face the same dilemma and everyone has more items available to counter them then slots in their inventory, but at least they often got aoe cc at their disposal to lessen the aids a little

hence why you see neither played that much since it's too much team reliant in an environment where there isn't an actual team

midnight oil245 votes

Just noting that MatPat used to be all science vids. Now he's not.

Sraeg20135 votes

Thus autofill exists because there aren’t enough people willing to put up with supporting to go around.

I call bullshit. Role Selection existed for a whole season without forced Autofill and queue times were lower than they are now.

Leetri5 votes

Do you mean the season were everyone were crying their eyes out about Dynamic Queue? You had WAY more premades then, and friends aren't usually kicking and screaming about having to play support. They're playing with friends after all, and from what I've seen there's usually one friend who willingly plays Support with another friend as the ADC.

CrossbowRanger4 votes

Supports can carry pretty well as long as the team doesn't basically int as you described. Too bad people make bad decisions on purpose. Recently won a 45ish minute ARAM due to patience playing tank akali(it was close and I don't play her.) Waiting things out for your teammates means you usually win even in a game you should lose. Most people don't do that.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

Supports can carry pretty well as long as the team doesn't basically int as you described. Too bad people make bad decisions on purpose. Recently won a 45ish minute ARAM due to patience playing tank akali(it was close and I don't play her.) Waiting things out for your teammates means you usually win even in a game you should lose. Most people don't do that.

im interested can u explain?

CrossbowRanger2 votes

Usually if you wait it out the other team will do something stupid out of impatience because you can only have so much. I think that's how it works in the LCS as well. ADCs seems to be the worst offenders. High elo= decision making.

Ionian Vulpix4 votes

The issues with supports taking kills and CS from ADCs is that ADCs need the gold more. Supports generally have some kind of utility in their kit that they can use without needing massive amounts of gold. But because of how damage works and comes from items, ADCs need to get as much gold as they can so they can do damage since that's pretty much all they're good for barring a few exceptions. Yes, supports could use the gold too, but they can do significantly more than any ADC can without it.

VoraciousX3 votes

{quoted}

The issues with supports taking kills and CS from ADCs is that ADCs need the gold more. Supports generally have some kind of utility in their kit that they can use without needing massive amounts of gold. But because of how damage works and comes from items, ADCs need to get as much gold as they can so they can do damage since that's pretty much all they're good for barring a few exceptions. Yes, supports could use the gold too, but they can do significantly more than any ADC can without it.

A kill is a kill though, regardless if an ADC gets it or not. A support taking a kill if they have to is completely fine. It gets rid of that enemy for some time giving you the ability to put more pressure regardless of who kills them. There's no need for ADCs to be ENTITLED to kill, if they get one that's good, but there's no need in ? spamming someone who gets a kill regardless if it's the support.

TheGoomyGamer1 votes

if they HAVE to. If it's to save the adcs life idc. If its that they wouldn't get the kill otherwise without sums/ultis etc. I fine with that. If they see the enemy low and decide to aa one last time that's what gets me tilted

VoraciousX1 votes

{quoted}

if they HAVE to. If it's to save the adcs life idc. If its that they wouldn't get the kill otherwise without sums/ultis etc. I fine with that. If they see the enemy low and decide to aa one last time that's what gets me tilted

It shouldn't matter if they have to or not. As long as they're not dying a ton after getting kills. This is the exact same as worrying about "kill stealing". Unless they're actively trying to get kills that you've basically done all the work yourself by going in last second to get a last hit, it's not a problem at all. I've seen Lee Sin's going around the map looking for the lowest health enemies just to throw a Q at the second people are gonna finish off enemies just so they look like they have the most kills in the game. THAT is tilting. If a support did absolutely nothing in the fight then I can understand the issues, if they just went in to last hit because they wanted the kill, that can be an issue. If they were actively participating in a fight and happened to get a kill that an ADC wanted, and the ADC gets tilted off of that, that's just a salty player.

Errlang2 votes

Only if your ADC isn't trash.

Mokkun4 votes

I was with you, all the way up until you hit the slippery slope fallacy and said that farming supports are the next wave of the meta.

That won't happen, because there are still 3.5 income sources. What people rapidly discover when they try doing that a lot (because trust me, it happens), is that several things happen.

  1. CS'ing becomes a war between the two people in the lane. This results in getting bodied because you aren't watching skill shots, or the map.
  2. Because it becomes a war, neither of you get enough CS. Therefore you are still an underfarmed semi-carry, and so aren't able to hit your goal anyway.
  3. The rage and tilt that results for both players, and their teammates, results in a lack of fun, and a mountain of reports. It's actually more fun to just do the role, than spend the entire match screaming at your team, at least for most people.

You can see the proto-aspects of this in co-op vs ai games where there often isn't a dedicated support, or even a jungler.

Farming supports aren't going to be the meta, outside of a couple things. Supports will continue to go mop up waves that carries aren't going to, because teams aren't coordinated enough to time said wave mop ups. And supports will continue to hang around to collect CS after the ADC leaves the lane (or dies), if they don't feel in imminent danger of death.

We've had years and years for your predicted future to come to pass, and it hasn't.

I'd also like to add some things to the conversation, as you're very much leaning on the idea that support in solo queue is terrible.

As a support main, you know that a large percentage of supports you are up against will be auto-fill failures. You know that some of the ADC's will be as well. That means that you know that you are statistically likely to crap on the opposing lane.

I would also like to postulate that the increase of mages down bot lane has a different source than personal carry potential, and that this is demonstrated by their use in professional play. And that reason is that most of the mages going bot lane are old. And their kits are old. And as such, they don't keep up well with modern mids.

Furthermore, a number of them have kits that would have been amazing as supports for a long long time. People just didn't use them as such. Zyra is a great example. She gets brush control/vision, counter engage, and no need to worry about the fact that she just burned her wave clear on harass, because she doesn't need CS. I heard people pushing Annie as a better, ranged Taric (old Taric with the point and click stun), before she was used as such. And they were right. To add to this, Zyra, Brand, Malz, Annie, and Velkoz (to name some of the most common mage supports), have one thing in common. No mobility. They benefit in a lane where there is a lot of ward coverage, even if it means being in a long lane, because modern mobile mids, combined with fast moving junglers will run them over if they aren't actually in range of their own tower.

In addition, old school mages are what pushed ADC's out of mid. Remember that season 1's meta was ADC mid. Surprise, surprise, the ADC counters are moving to follow them, and being successful at it.

The original parts of your thread, where you explain the lack of teamwork, and some of the tilt factor of auto-fill are valid, but I think your predictions are not.

DrCyanide1 votes

About the farming support idea, I feel it's worth adding that Veigar doesn't need to CS to get stacks, he can simply take Spell Thief's Edge and get gold and stacks for harassing the two enemies in lane. Depending on how constant his harass is, he can get more AP and deal more damage than a mid laner. He's the closest thing to a farming support to have developed so far.

Similarly, if Lissandra's changes in the PBE go thru she might see some success in the Support role for similar reasons. With the right combination of items and harass, it's easy to see her farming extra damage while filling the bare minimum for the Support role.

Calabok3 votes

real supports cannot carry. mage supports CAN sometimes...

tea tìme3 votes

Malzahar support is kicking my ass as a support main.

Mythic pepe3 votes

Riot: we need people to play support

People: can you make it more intresting than a snooze fest where you dont feel like a semi inert vegetable?

Balance team: how about not in a million years.

Support is a crap position but instead of making it actually enjoyable they started autofill

Good Teamwork with adc is basically impossible without a mic

Tl:dr supp is a dumbster position and instead of making it enjoyable... enjoy autofill to the shittiest position

Leetri5 votes

I enjoy playing Nami once in a while and I feel like I have a big impact on the game. A good ult can win the entire fight and secure the win for my team.

The main problem isn't the game itself (although Riot could do more to alleviate the issue), you'll see the same complaints in almost any other competitive game out there. The real problem is player mentality. Everyone wants to be the guy on the top of the scoreboard with tons of points next to their name. That's why they're drawn to Yasuo, Riven, Master Yi, etc. They can go in and get the kills and pad their numbers. There's not as many people who take a greater pleasure in making others shine, sadly.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

I enjoy playing Nami once in a while and I feel like I have a big impact on the game. A good ult can win the entire fight and secure the win for my team.

The main problem isn't the game itself (although Riot could do more to alleviate the issue), you'll see the same complaints in almost any other competitive game out there. The real problem is player mentality. Everyone wants to be the guy on the top of the scoreboard with tons of points next to their name. That's why they're drawn to Yasuo, Riven, Master Yi, etc. They can go in and get the kills and pad their numbers. There's not as many people who take a greater pleasure in making others shine, sadly.

player mentality very true, that is also a root problem...

I wonder how people would react if Yasuo had been a Support; same kit, still flashy plays, and skill required (so still Yasuo), but support oriented.

Basically remove the crit part of the passive, but keep the passive shield for body blocking skill shots

Make normal Q slow enemies,

empowered 3rd Q is already a supp ability

W is already a support ability

make E reduce resistances (and make the E into Q still knock up)

R makes allies within a certain radius dash with him.

Do u think he would have the same popularity, or do u think people are soley drawn to those numbers next to their name?

Leetri1 votes

In Yasuo's case he also has a very cool theme going, being a wandering ronin with wind magic. If he was a support I think people would find a way to play him in a solo lane, but he'd still be pretty popular just because of his theme. However, I don't think the same kind of people would be playing him. If say Sona was as flashy and got tons of kills the Yasuo/Riven/Yi crowd would be playing her too.

Pr0Meister3 votes

You see the problem is, a true support-y support is only as good as the team. I'm more or less a Sona/Leona main and can't tell you how many times I've seen games lost because a 3-man stunlock from me has been ignored.

I can make a legit play of the game by shielding my adc, bodyblocking a hook and dash-stunning their adc but it's for nothing when my teammate runs away when we can get kills or runs back in when I am furiously pinging away and trying to buy him time with my sacrifice.

Restraintful3 votes

Let me give you a TL:DR...

Nobody wants to support because they've been spoon fed the "carry mentality" where you NEED to carry your games in order to win and get better. This is a solo-esque mentality that has no place in a team play environment. Teamplay wins you games, no matter what team comp you have, supporting your other members always (I hate using this word now but...) trumps individual play. Get rid of the carry mentality, get better teammates.

Hard reset ranked, that would help too.

Mannny2 votes

Naturally Solo Queue encourages solo carrying because you most likely won't climb if you don't do it yourself(Atleast that's the common belief).

Spacesuit Spiff2 votes

The perspective that lets me have fun as support is that youre actually trying to outplay your allies, which is to say predicting the dumb shit theyre gonna do and making sure they survive it. Thats often harder than just fighting actual enemies, but at least you can always see your own team.

(No idea if this was covered in the OP, it looks like a great read but im too tired to finish it)

Vreivai2 votes

My own story on this in a game that I just played.

I'm supporting for an Ashe, and on a whim open up her op.gg profile. In placements this season, no ranked games from previous season, pretty awful KDA in the games played. Pretty much looked like a player who had just hit level 30. I like to play Nami and Alistar, but looking at this it was pretty clear anything I could do with them would be wasted with this player. So I picked Vel'koz. Ashe died level 1 wandering on to Caitlyn traps, but once I got my ult I was able to kill pretty much anyone I caught with my E if my ult was up. I then started taking some of the CS (and Ashe was missing most of them, anyways). I got fed, our other lanes got fed, the game turned into a general stomp and they surrendered at 27 minutes with our Yasuo on their nexus towers. So basically, I was vindicated with a win that I might not have otherwise had by doing almost the exact behavior described in this thread.

Linna Excel2 votes

Yes, I can understand both your thought process going in and the relief you felt when it turned out you made the right choice.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

As someone who used to main support, I agree with all these points. In my support games these days I'm happy to leave my carry to go pick up some farm in the enemy jungle because it helps me stay at a higher XP amount. And if my ADC gets killed 1v2 while I'm gone I think "good thing I wasn't there, that would probably have been a double".

I as a player am just tired of ADC players and the laning phase in general. I love team fighting as a support but I hate being expected to sit around for 10 minutes not farming, dodging enemy harass and occasionally healing or going to ward. And ADC players just flame constantly.

Linna Excel1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cG4Xkgqy,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2017-03-26T13:39:43.135+0000)

I as a player am just tired of ADC players and the laning phase in general. I love team fighting as a support but I hate being expected to sit around for 10 minutes not farming, dodging enemy harass and occasionally healing or going to ward. And ADC players just flame constantly.

Yep. I think one of the reasons AP mids went bot is they can aggressively interact with the enemy bot lane much easier.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

" . . . solo queue isn’t cooperative game theory, it’s competitive game theory, even on the same team." Which became a problem years ago when riot started shoving this game as an 'esport'.

VoraciousX1 votes

Aside from Lulu or Janna(Janna would be the worst example as she doesn't really have any waveclear or damage to survive in a solo lane), I can't think of any other supports with heals or shields to use for this situation and Lulu or Janna would both not have the waveclear to defend against a tower assault, whether they survived or not. The fact that this works with one support should be proof enough though that they are overbearing.

arcticfenris2 votes

Try tank Raka top. It is stupidly fun. Rush whatever defensive component of zzrot you need for your lane, then grab some components of redemption (at least the faerie charms, if not the idol) and finish zzrot. Raka is a huge lane bully with self healing, slow, self speed buff, silence, and root. You can shove enemies off the wave early and make the early snowball champions completely irrelevant. Also it is a big screw you to rivens as they can't do much against your AOE silence into root. Plus tons of top laners have "execute" ultsDarius Garen Riven . Fortunately for raka she can cast her ult during their cast time and still get healed. Only one I don't think she can outtime is Cho.

WinTheWarOnPants1 votes

What i wanna know is, has anyone ever seen a single game where support** isn't** the least pick/desired role? I really don't think this is a fixable problem. People simply don't like to play a supportive role in ANY game, not just league. As far as i can tell, riot trying to "fix the problem" is going to do nothing but create more problems cough*item 3107 cough*.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Dawngate wasn't bad. Developers also said they wanted to get away from the "slave support" concept though.

WinTheWarOnPants1 votes

Did they succeed? If so, how did they do it?

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Did the succeed?

Ea canned them during the open beta. Guess not every game can make 900% profit in the first two days. (>_>)

If so, how did they do it?

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2JXl9efO-its-late-so-take-this-with-a-grain-of-salt?comment=000d000000000000

Earl Eulrich3 votes

dunno, in hots e.g. supports have just the same xp(=gold) as everyne else - and most have some fairly aggressive gameplay ptions that are actually viable so there´s not much of a problem with finding a support in ranked/draft.

Pika3102 votes

I must say, I do love combining Tyrande's infinite AD scaling with her AD-scaling AD aura. It's like if Rito had decided to buff pre-4.13 Sona instead of dumpstering her and removing auras from her kit.

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