Asking for a second opinion on this thornmail rework concept.

kasfas··1 votes·510 views

item 3075 Components: item 3751 + item 1031 + item 1029 + 600g (+ 400g with optional passive)

Stats: 80 armour 300 hp

Passive (Immolate): Reflects 20-75 damage (based on level {20/22/24/26/28/30/32/34/36/38/40/45/50/55/60/65/70/75} ) + 15% of incoming damage back to attackers as magic damage.

Optionally: Inflicts grievous wounds onto targets with less than 150 - 1450 current hp (based on opponents level {150/200/250/300/350/400/475/550/625/700/775/950/1025/1100/1175/1300/1375/1450} ).

Basically, this iteration removes the reliance on building armour that allows for abuse cases, while making it a more effective item overall. Also allows for its effectiveness to not be reduced by some other armour shredding items and abilities and makes it a relevant item the entire game. This is **_THE _ ** item to buy when the enemy team has lots of ad champions or more than one ad carry. It isn't effective against tanks and mages because it only gives armour, and those classes tend to not basic attack much. Furthermore the item only gives 300 hp making it FAR less effective against burst damage which is the majority of Mage and tank damage according to riot.

The grievous wounds passive would realistically only ever apply to ad carries because of their low health pool and reliance on auto attacks, but the item itself doesn't do massive damage, the grievous wounds won't apply to most carries unless they were already within the majority of champions burst range already, so it should only prevent cases where ad carries just life steal back to full after a burst combo. It also happens to be one of the most expensive tank items in the game and shares its passive with sunfire, so adcs don't fear its likely gonna be bought a bit later into the game and won't be stacking up. Assuming it gets that passive anyway.

What do you think? Leave comments and criticisms below so I know what to change.

16 Comments

Pauguster5 votes

I'm sorry, but putting grievous wounds on Thornmail is the worst idea ever and Riot has repeatedly said "no" to that. I know people think that tanks need some way of standing up to carries better, but this would offer simply no counterplay as an ADC. Everybody could simply get this item against a fed ADC and they couldn't attack anybody because they'd be literally killing themselves. Just take the thornmail for what it is. It's not bad that it returns the damage like it does, and the damage basically negates the healing most ADCs get from lifesteal. Now I'm not saying that everybody would build this item against a fed ADC, but if one or two people did, then that ADC would have nothing they could do. They either attack those people and die, or they sit back and wait for their team to kill those people, which simply might not be an option.

kasfas1 votes

It has a health cap on applying the grievous wounds firstly, secondly there isn't much counterplay to getting hit from range without being able to retaliate,thirdly it has more armour than health so its more an item that tanks want to buy as opposed to bruisers and juggernauts who want their randuins and steraks to get into fights and keep you on them, and finally thornmail does jackshit lategame unless you're malphite taric or rammus who have large self armour buffs in their kit. Thornamil is a really shit item in alll honesty that gets countered by so many things that its ~99% of the time not worth buying. (the exepions are taric, rammus, malphite, and poppy, and sometimes against a lucian or kogmaw.)

Admittedly the grievous wounds didn't need to be there (and i wouldnt've put it there on my own), but everyone seemed to want thornmail to have it so i just put it in there. It doesn't stack with sunfire now though so you shouldn't be worried about tanks killing you by standing near you and you attacking them , that was intentional. the grievous wounds cap could also be lowered to say 1000 hp, or to a % like morello's, but by that time the adc should be close to dying anyway if they aren't getting peel.

I mean grievous wounds is not a fair mechanic, but if ad champions can get item 3123, i feel its not very fair to every other class that they can't do anything to prevent healing.

Pauguster2 votes

Well the base stats are great. I often want a thornmail but find myself forgoing it for something with more health because health is just a more reliable stat right now. The grievous wounds thing is the only part of it I had an issue with.

kasfas1 votes

an item with only armour needs something really good as a passive to make it worth it, but thornmail just doesnt have it. Thats why it needs a base stat adjustment. That was the major intention of the post. Give thornmail good stats.

Edit: I changed the post a bit now, putting GW as an optional passive for more gold.

Pauguster2 votes

Well I definitely am all for giving it better stats. It's a very useful item in certain circumstances but as it is it's pretty much only useful on the champions you mentioned, even IF the team is mostly AD. Plus it's a cheap item which makes me feel like I shouldn't have it late game where I need to get the most out of every item slot.

kasfas1 votes

Which is why i have reason to have a concept for its rework. It's very inefficient, and gets countered very easily by 2 cheap items which most adc's buy in a full build anyway. item 3035 + item 1053 The item has great potential, but it wasn't fulfilled well. I think this fulfills the concept better.

Selegun2 votes

It is better but I don't want to spend so much gold for armor XP

kasfas1 votes

Whispers: Thing is, if it doesn't cost a lot all the adc mains on the boards would rip this to shreds. I want them to think it's a good idea too!

Selegun1 votes

True, though would it be better to make a new item instead? Maybe something like...

item 3114 + item 3211 + 1000G

Stats should be nothing impresive but would have a passive that fits something like : when taking damage from basic attacks drain 3% of maxmana to inflict grevious wounds on attacker.

That way enemy champs still have incentive to attack you dispite the curse they will suffer for it.

kasfas1 votes

Maybe as an MR item, but we're talking about reworking thornmail the armour item. It doesn't need to have GW, but its statline should DEFINETELY be changed.

Selegun1 votes

Lol, i tend to like it as is. It suits my needs when i just need armor and dont want all that extra HP boging down my build. Ah well, I'm fated to have an unpopular opinion I guess

Hyperiön1 votes

Or just do:

item 3751 item 1031 + 1000g

Or make it similar to Frozen Heart and build it out of item 3082, just with the same stuff you mentioned.

Friendly Ram1 votes

would this stack with sunfire?

kasfas1 votes

No, it has the same immolate passive as sunfire specifically so that it wont stack letting tanks deal massive damage by standing in a fight. I'm a tank main and i know that its a problem to have that situation happen, that's why i want criticism because i think i'm biased and don't want to make the item super op for tanks.

Kaioko1 votes

That is a lot of reflection damage + grievous wound on one item is a bit much and would not let anyone have counter play to it.

kasfas1 votes

I guess the base damage is a bit high. I'll lower it.

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