Can we just combine cinderhulk into sunfire cape?

Too Ton·Apr 12, 2015·3 votes·598 views

With laners including myself starting to take smite/cinderhulk on top laners, I have the idea to combine sunfire cape into cinderhulk. True you could use sunfire but the main use of cinderhulk is the %BONUS HP. The damage is icing on the cake to make it even better. Cinderhulk helps tanks out which was needed. It really helps tanks out compared to bruisers right?

Sunfire cape: 450 hp 45 armor Immolate

New sunfire cape: 750 hp 45 armor 25% bonus hp Immolate of cinderhulk now not add them together

6 Comments

ValyrianBladeApr 12, 20152 votes

That's too much power.

Sunfire cape has armor, cinderhulk doesn't. I have no problem with giving sunfire cape a %hp bonus, but it shouldn't give more hp and more %hp than cinderhulk. Perhaps the new stats for sunfire cape (and it will need to be repriced, likely upwards)

New Sunfire Cape: 400hp 40 armor 15-20% bonus hp immolate

Both the % bonus hp and the immolate are unique, so neither stacks with cinderhulk (i.e. you can't get 40% bonus hp from sunfire + cinderhulk).

Although, to be honest, I like how Junglers get the unique percent HP. Junglers have a pretty large gold disadvantage so it's easier to balance this huge advantage on them because they can't stack HP as quickly. A top laner could make this stack up a lot faster and could cause a lot of balance issues.

ZephyrDrakeApr 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That's too much power.

Sunfire cape has armor, cinderhulk doesn't. I have no problem with giving sunfire cape a %hp bonus, but it shouldn't give more hp and more %hp than cinderhulk. Perhaps the new stats for sunfire cape (and it will need to be repriced, likely upwards)

New Sunfire Cape: 400hp 40 armor 15-20% bonus hp immolate

Both the % bonus hp and the immolate are unique, so neither stacks with cinderhulk (i.e. you can't get 40% bonus hp from sunfire + cinderhulk).

Although, to be honest, I like how Junglers get the unique percent HP. Junglers have a pretty large gold disadvantage so it's easier to balance this huge advantage on them because they can't stack HP as quickly. A top laner could make this stack up a lot faster and could cause a lot of balance issues.

they can already just grab smite and get it anyways, and since they get item 3715 it makes them not getting an offensive summoner be a non-existent issue

ValyrianBladeApr 13, 20152 votes

The point is, compared to old sunfire you're suggesting +300hp, +25% bonus hp (which is +188hp on that item, and probably around +500 hp from all items combined [assume you can build 2k hp, should be easy with 750 from sunfire alone).

That's WAY too big a bonus.

Let's consider cinderhulk now as a top laner: First, you give up a summoner. So are you teleport-smite or are you flash-smite? The former you're a gank target because you don't have flash, the latter you sacrifice a lot of map pressure for your team. You can't teleport bot lane for a gank in to dragon but your opponent can. You can't split push bottom late because you can't get to the baron fight on time, etc...

Let's assume you don't care about map pressure and only care about lane, so you go flash-smite (from the comment it sounded like you normally go flash-ignite and were willing to give up ignite). Let's even ignore the teleport advantage.

You build cinderhulk: you get 300 health and 25% bonus health and immolate vs. You build your suggested sunfire cape: you get 750hp and 25% bonus health and 45 armor and immolate.

Like seriously, even without the two passives the health upgrade alone makes it rival Randuin's as an armor item for less gold.

That sunfire buff makes it WAY too slot efficient. Even if it costs 3500g it's still a core buy because it gives so much for one slot. It's only 50hp short of Warmogs (before the passive, has MORE after) and Warmogs only gives hp (ignoring passive).

If you want bonus %hp on it, you need to sacrifice a lot of the hp and possibly some of the armor, and probably need to increase the cost still. Cinderhulk can get away with the %hp because it doesn't give any armor.

ZephyrDrakeApr 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The point is, compared to old sunfire you're suggesting +300hp, +25% bonus hp (which is +188hp on that item, and probably around +500 hp from all items combined [assume you can build 2k hp, should be easy with 750 from sunfire alone).

That's WAY too big a bonus.

Let's consider cinderhulk now as a top laner: First, you give up a summoner. So are you teleport-smite or are you flash-smite? The former you're a gank target because you don't have flash, the latter you sacrifice a lot of map pressure for your team. You can't teleport bot lane for a gank in to dragon but your opponent can. You can't split push bottom late because you can't get to the baron fight on time, etc...

Let's assume you don't care about map pressure and only care about lane, so you go flash-smite (from the comment it sounded like you normally go flash-ignite and were willing to give up ignite). Let's even ignore the teleport advantage.

You build cinderhulk: you get 300 health and 25% bonus health and immolate vs. You build your suggested sunfire cape: you get 750hp and 25% bonus health and 45 armor and immolate.

Like seriously, even without the two passives the health upgrade alone makes it rival Randuin's as an armor item for less gold.

That sunfire buff makes it WAY too slot efficient. Even if it costs 3500g it's still a core buy because it gives so much for one slot. It's only 50hp short of Warmogs (before the passive, has MORE after) and Warmogs only gives hp (ignoring passive).

If you want bonus %hp on it, you need to sacrifice a lot of the hp and possibly some of the armor, and probably need to increase the cost still. Cinderhulk can get away with the %hp because it doesn't give any armor.

i have no idea why you even replied to me when almost none of these things are things i even said. All i said was you can simply get smite. get the jungle item, get cinderhulk anyways and with the upgraded smite it makes you taking that non laning summoner be irrelevant. You can get skirmishers or stalkers... usually skirmishers since it's better in 1v1 scenarios. What would you be giving up? well you don't need flash on a lot of top laners that aren't tanks so you can give up that. If you are also playing SoloQ teleport isn't quite as important unless your team is very well coordinated so you can give up that, you can give up ignite if you take it top.

I didn't say that sunfire needs a %hp bonus nor did i say it needs an upgrade

ValyrianBladeApr 13, 20151 votes

Oh, apologies, I thought you were the OP responding to my comment and thought I needed to further explain myself...

Although to be frank, not being the OP I don't see how your post relates to my response. It relates to my last comment, but cinderhulk would at least take up a slot with no armor or MR so it doesn't posit the same problems that I had listed.