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Why is there even a surrender option???

ylneveaH evoL··4 votes·1,470 views

It only creates disunity amongst the team, it only discourages those who are actually trying, and it only lessens the attitude of the person trying to surrender. It literally only brings negativity to the game. I don't understand why Riot has been so blind to the surrender option because it literally has no positive effect on players.

The designers over the years have implemented many factors and ideas into the game to discourage negative behaviour, yet have left the most cancerous part of the game in tact the entire time.

It just baffles my mind that people complain about "wasting time". Your only truly wasting time by surrendering, because you just played 20 minutes to give up, thats more of a waste of time than losing and learning from your defeat, while trying your hardest the whole time. Besides, its a video game, it is DESIGNED TO WASTE TIME.

No other highly competitive mulitiplayer game has one. The only games that do are single player games. Overwatch- No surrender Heroes of the Storm- No surrender Smite- No surrender CS:GO- No surrender Hockey- No surrender Basketball, football, soccer, fricking ping pong. THERE IS NO GIVING UP...so why do we have it?

19 Comments

Dragfin3 votes

[{quoted}](name=ylneveaH evoL,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c3uVmwIH,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-09-26T17:37:55.214+0000)

It only creates disunity amongst the team, it only discourages those who are actually trying, and it only lessens the attitude of the person trying to surrender. It literally only brings negativity to the game. I don't understand why Riot has been so blind to the surrender option because it literally has no positive effect on players.

The designers over the years have implemented many factors and ideas into the game to discourage negative behaviour, yet have left the most cancerous part of the game in tact the entire time.

It just baffles my mind that people complain about "wasting time". Your only truly wasting time by surrendering, because you just played 20 minutes to give up, thats more of a waste of time than losing and learning from your defeat, while trying your hardest the whole time. Besides, its a video game, it is DESIGNED TO WASTE TIME.

No other highly competitive mulitiplayer game has one. The only games that do are single player games. Overwatch- No surrender Heroes of the Storm- No surrender Smite- No surrender CS:GO- No surrender Hockey- No surrender Basketball, football, soccer, fricking ping pong. THERE IS NO GIVING UP...so why do we have it?

I agree 100%. Just to add, it is my opinion that we would have better players overall if surrendering was not an option. They would either learn to play and get better or suffer instead of using surrender as a crutch to go take their horrible play to the next 9 people in the next game.

Desolas Arterius3 votes

There's a few reason why I can understand having a surrender option in league is acceptable.

Game times are much higher compared to the other games you mentioned. OW on average takes 10-15 minutes. Heroes can be 20-30 minute games, Smite is 20-30, unsure on CS:GO but I would assume it averages 15-20 or so. League on average can take 35-50 minutes to finish. So giving the option of surrendering is pretty nice considering the games can take quite awhile, and if you know the outcome isn't favorable towards you (no late game scaling champs, enemy team has taken all of your outer turrets).

For real sports, the most comparable idea of surrender is forfeiting a match. I was a volleyball referee for 5+ years and plenty of teams would forfeit their games just to go home earlier or because they were down a player. Other sports have this option, it's just not called surrendering.

Another reason is because of the play styles. For a MOBA like HotS, there isn't any snowballing so games can still be won as long as you control objectives. There is no focus on items so the concept of "snowballing" really doesn't exist for that MOBA. League is mostly focused on snowballing via items and a bit of objective control, so when an enemy player is 10/0 or even 7/0 by 15 minutes then it's quite hard to come back from that. The other games don't exactly encourage snowballing either like league does, so being able to surrender and save yourself some time to start a new game isn't exactly bad.

Sure it sucks for your team if you have one player who wants to keep trying, or if you're the enemy team you don't get to see full build, but it's not as bad as people think. I mean, thanks to surrender we have the remake option too, which has been really handy whenever I've come across an AFK or someone who failed to connect. I'm sure people who play ranked often are happy with that change as well since it sucks losing LP because of an AFK.

It's really not that bad. Other games use it to. Good example is Destiny's PVP. There is an automatic surrender when you're team is far behind or getting slaughtered. Same if you have 2v6 because people afk or disconnect. The game will automatically surrender the game within a few minutes if you're down a little over half their points. They do a great job implementing it because it helps prevent you from being discouraged after getting your ass handed to you by the enemy with no hope of coming back.

I agree it could use some tweaking however, the surrender option is still good, and is still just an option. You don't have to surrender, but it's there just in case you want to :)

Dragfin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Desolas Arterius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c3uVmwIH,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-09-26T18:15:43.141+0000)

There's a few reason why I can understand having a surrender option in league is acceptable.

Game times are much higher compared to the other games you mentioned. OW on average takes 10-15 minutes. Heroes can be 20-30 minute games, Smite is 20-30, unsure on CS:GO but I would assume it averages 15-20 or so. League on average can take 35-50 minutes to finish. So giving the option of surrendering is pretty nice considering the games can take quite awhile, and if you know the outcome isn't favorable towards you (no late game scaling champs, enemy team has taken all of your outer turrets).

For real sports, the most comparable idea of surrender is forfeiting a match. I was a volleyball referee for 5+ years and plenty of teams would forfeit their games just to go home earlier or because they were down a player. Other sports have this option, it's just not called surrendering.

Another reason is because of the play styles. For a MOBA like HotS, there isn't any snowballing so games can still be won as long as you control objectives. There is no focus on items so the concept of "snowballing" really doesn't exist for that MOBA. League is mostly focused on snowballing via items and a bit of objective control, so when an enemy player is 10/0 or even 7/0 by 15 minutes then it's quite hard to come back from that. The other games don't exactly encourage snowballing either like league does, so being able to surrender and save yourself some time to start a new game isn't exactly bad.

Sure it sucks for your team if you have one player who wants to keep trying, or if you're the enemy team you don't get to see full build, but it's not as bad as people think. I mean, thanks to surrender we have the remake option too, which has been really handy whenever I've come across an AFK or someone who failed to connect. I'm sure people who play ranked often are happy with that change as well since it sucks losing LP because of an AFK.

It's really not that bad. Other games use it to. Good example is Destiny's PVP. There is an automatic surrender when you're team is far behind or getting slaughtered. Same if you have 2v6 because people afk or disconnect. The game will automatically surrender the game within a few minutes if you're down a little over half their points. They do a great job implementing it because it helps prevent you from being discouraged after getting your ass handed to you by the enemy with no hope of coming back.

I agree it could use some tweaking however, the surrender option is still good, and is still just an option. You don't have to surrender, but it's there just in case you want to :)

The concept of the surrender button is great but...

If it wasn't being abused by shitty players for the sole purpose of not being carried in their current game then I would not have a problem with it. They need to get rid of it. Agree to disagree because there is no changing my mind about this issue and the experiences that I have had with it. I despise lazy and ignorant people and this button is abused by those very same people.

Desolas Arterius1 votes

Oh I'm well aware it gets abused haha. That is definitely a problem just like every other function league has that gets abused.

But I disagree on removing it entirely. It needs work sure, but it should stay for the people that dont abuse it and use it as intended. If the abuse cases were outweighing the intended uses, then I would definitely agree it needs to be removed.

It should always remain as an option for those who need it, but the issues of abuse do need to be lowered. Obviously it wont be perfect, but the closer to 0% abuse we can get to, the better. So far I personally have not had many issues with it, but I can see it does affect others. Neither of us will know the real numbers on how often it gets abused, but for now I just think it's okay at doing what it was intended to do.

Also keep in mind, it cant get abused easily unless the majority in the game want to surrender. If you have a lone wolf in your game who wants to give up, but the remaining 4 want to keep playing, then his surrender is moot and worthless. Not that it can't be abused in other ways, but in situations like that, it can only get abused if a premade of 4 decide to surrender and force the surrender onto the solo player. I have actually seen a case about a group doing that, they did get permanently banned for it which was pretty nice.

I think the only real positive change I could see is limiting the amount of surrenders available to players each game (like 1 initiation per game or something), or perhaps removing who voted what and simply asking "Would you like to surrender"? They're band-aid fixes, but could be easily implemented into the game to help reduce the issues caused by surrendering.

Just my opinion though.

Dragfin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Desolas Arterius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c3uVmwIH,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-09-26T19:02:55.890+0000)

Oh I'm well aware it gets abused haha. That is definitely a problem just like every other function league has that gets abused.

But I disagree on removing it entirely. It needs work sure, but it should stay for the people that dont abuse it and use it as intended. If the abuse cases were outweighing the intended uses, then I would definitely agree it needs to be removed.

It should always remain as an option for those who need it, but the issues of abuse do need to be lowered. Obviously it wont be perfect, but the closer to 0% abuse we can get to, the better. So far I personally have not had many issues with it, but I can see it does affect others. Neither of us will know the real numbers on how often it gets abused, but for now I just think it's okay at doing what it was intended to do.

Also keep in mind, it cant get abused easily unless the majority in the game want to surrender. If you have a lone wolf in your game who wants to give up, but the remaining 4 want to keep playing, then his surrender is moot and worthless. Not that it can't be abused in other ways, but in situations like that, it can only get abused if a premade of 4 decide to surrender and force the surrender onto the solo player. I have actually seen a case about a group doing that, they did get permanently banned for it which was pretty nice.

I think the only real positive change I could see is limiting the amount of surrenders available to players each game (like 1 initiation per game or something), or perhaps removing who voted what and simply asking "Would you like to surrender"? They're band-aid fixes, but could be easily implemented into the game to help reduce the issues caused by surrendering.

Just my opinion though.

3- 5 surrenders per day per player. I am looking for a way that players will take it upon themselves to get better at the game. Allowing players to continue to surrender at will is not going to fix anything.

Desolas Arterius1 votes

Can you post a link where you got that info? I'd like to read it.

Also that seems a bit harsh and subjective. Surrendering doesn't correlate to players not wanting to get better at the game. There are plenty of other reasons as to why players may not want to improve.

Usually it's time, attitude, and overall skill.

It takes a lot of time for players to get above average skill in this game. If you work a full time job, or have a family, etc. then finding the time to play this game to improve would be difficult.

Attitude can affect growth if the player is stubborn or hotheaded. Such as they refuse to take advice, or think they're already good enough that they don't need to improve. Or it could be a negative attitude such as blaming others for their loss, not thinking they're good enough to improve, etc.

Overall skill could be hand-eye coordination, remembering data (counters, builds, strategies).

I don't think the surrender option is causing players to not get better. I just think that's people in general. Especially considering the majority of the playerbase places in Bronze/Silver. I would have agreed with you if you said the surrender option might be causing some of the negative attitude towards improvement, but it's not the only reason, and probably not that significant compared to the others I listed.

Dragfin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Desolas Arterius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c3uVmwIH,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-26T20:38:15.252+0000)

Can you post a link where you got that info? I'd like to read it.

Also that seems a bit harsh and subjective. Surrendering doesn't correlate to players not wanting to get better at the game. There are plenty of other reasons as to why players may not want to improve.

Usually it's time, attitude, and overall skill.

It takes a lot of time for players to get above average skill in this game. If you work a full time job, or have a family, etc. then finding the time to play this game to improve would be difficult.

Attitude can affect growth if the player is stubborn or hotheaded. Such as they refuse to take advice, or think they're already good enough that they don't need to improve. Or it could be a negative attitude such as blaming others for their loss, not thinking they're good enough to improve, etc.

Overall skill could be hand-eye coordination, remembering data (counters, builds, strategies).

I don't think the surrender option is causing players to not get better. I just think that's people in general. Especially considering the majority of the playerbase places in Bronze/Silver. I would have agreed with you if you said the surrender option might be causing some of the negative attitude towards improvement, but it's not the only reason, and probably not that significant compared to the others I listed.

What info? My opinion? My experience? Where did I say anything where I would need a link?

Desolas Arterius1 votes

Oh I completely misread your comment. I thought you meant there were 3-5 surrenders per player per day. Like a statistic. I didn't realize you meant it as a suggestion. Totally my fault! :)

Dragfin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Desolas Arterius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c3uVmwIH,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-27T18:06:18.690+0000)

Oh I completely misread your comment. I thought you meant there were 3-5 surrenders per player per day. Like a statistic. I didn't realize you meant it as a suggestion. Totally my fault! :)

It happens. No harm.

1wolfpack2 votes

here is a benefit - saves both teams the time it takes for one to win and the other to lose by surrendering early.

Oh Look Kaede2 votes

There is a surrender in case go

S0kaX1 votes

Because 15-0 in minute 10 means you will lose

Great Muta1 votes

You can surrender in CSGO, but you need an AFK.

Maximum Morde1 votes

The disunity was already there. Surrender votes just make you aware of it. Surrender is also a nice alternative to outright leaving. At the end of the day, I try to be nice and surrender, but if I'm leaving I'm leaving. Enjoy your 4v5 once I'm gone.

I'm calling bullshit on surrender vote abuse. The only time it's abused to actually surrender is by, you guessed it, toxic 4 man premades. The rest of the time it's almost always some tryhard duo holding the rest of their team hostage for an hour.

Dragfin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c3uVmwIH,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-09-27T12:14:06.277+0000)

The disunity was already there. Surrender votes just make you aware of it. Surrender is also a nice alternative to outright leaving. At the end of the day, I try to be nice and surrender, but if I'm leaving I'm leaving. Enjoy your 4v5 once I'm gone.

I'm calling bullshit on surrender vote abuse. The only time it's abused to actually surrender is by, you guessed it, toxic 4 man premades. The rest of the time it's almost always some tryhard duo holding the rest of their team hostage for an hour.

LPQ was made for players just like you. You are also a good example of abuse given the reasons you gave.

Maximum Morde1 votes

And yet I have the helping hands icon for being a positive player and have never been punished (in game, on forums I'm a complete douche and have been banned numerous times) either by leaver buster, old tribunal, or the new automated system.

Dragfin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c3uVmwIH,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-09-27T18:45:31.886+0000)

And yet I have the helping hands icon for being a positive player and have never been punished (in game, on forums I'm a complete douche and have been banned numerous times) either by leaver buster, old tribunal, or the new automated system.

Your attitude tells me that it's only a matter of time. Keep leaving games for stated reasons and your LPQ will come.

Maximum Morde1 votes

Unlikely. The events are few and far between as well as spread across numerous accounts so I never trigger the punishment threshold for frequency.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

I should not be forced to play a game with retards that can't stop dying. Surrenders should be allowed at 15 minutes, not removed.

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