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Dynamic que is...

PrometheS··14 votes·1,074 views

like ranking singles and doubles tennis players on the same ladder. Does that make sense to anyone? If I told you I was the #1 tennis player in the world and the system worked like this, it would just cause confusion and disagreement. Maybe I'm a doubles player and someone thinks the best tennis player should be determined by 1v1 or vice versa. The point is, it would be meaningless if you didn't know how the ranking was determined.

It might be fun, but let's be real here in terms of how meaningful it is... a ranking for it could mean a million different things. One guy might have gotten to his rank purely from solo or duo and another with just ranked 5s. The formats are very different and don't belong in the same ranking system because there is no consistency between players. It's not even about whether I'd be the odd man out in a team que or face a 5 man team when duoing etc. Those are secondary issues. The bigger problem is just that the ranking from dynamic que isn't about anything specific.

15 Comments

Deep Terror Nami3 votes

It's the replacement for Team Ranked, with the added convenience of picking up and running with any number of people you want at any time. The system is designed to match you with equal premade sizes the vast majority of the time.

If you absolutely can't stand this, they are adding a Solo only Ranked later.

SirPurrr3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bzEWvA32,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-02-06T05:32:44.810+0000)

It's the replacement for Team Ranked, with the added convenience of picking up and running with any number of people you want at any time. The system is designed to match you with equal premade sizes the vast majority of the time.

If you absolutely can't stand this, they are adding a Solo only Ranked later.

that's irrelevant to the point presented, which is that it's fundamentally flawed as a serous ranking system

even if you're matched vs equally sized teams, it would still be meaningless because there would be no clarity for how a rank was derived

Deep Terror Nami3 votes

As I said, if you don't like that system there is going to be one just for you.

Vistha Kai1 votes

And so far it does everything, but match same-sized premades aganist each other.

Even with "98%" chance it rarely happens.

Deep Terror Nami1 votes

I wanted to say "98%" but I think that was for full premades. I don't know what the percentage for all sizes are supposed to be.

Vistha Kai1 votes

I believe our Overlord Lyte used "96%" for 4-mans.

No idea about 2- and 3-mans.

SirPurrr5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bzEWvA32,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-02-06T06:08:01.255+0000)

And so far it does everything, but match same-sized premades aganist each other.

Even with "98%" chance it rarely happens.

even if it was 100%, it wouldn't make any difference because that's not the issue

you won't know if someone's dynamic que ranking is based mostly off him queing solo, with 4 friends, duo etc. and they mean quite different things... that's why I have no respect for it

Vistha Kai1 votes

That's only half of my comment and I didn't say I don't understand the issue.

In fact I was one of the first who said how fucked up Dynamic Queue of a ranked system will be, back when it first hit PBE. Not because of matching premades, but the sole fact solo players can be matched aganist even 5-man premades.

DrCyanide2 votes

Your mistake is assuming ranked ever meant anything.

Look at football. Would it ever make sense to call someone the best football player ever? No, because they're only the best at one role in football. In League we have people that only play one champion well or one role well, and that's it. If you want ranks to actually mean something, you've got to split those factors out of the ranked system. I might be a Gold 5 Xerath, but a Bronze 4 Vayne. The system never new how to handle that. You've always been able to play every game with a duo partner, you never got a sperate rank for solo vs duo.

TL;DR: is naïve to think ranked has been more accurate or less accurate than it is now.

astralwit1 votes

{quoted}

Your mistake is assuming ranked ever meant anything.

Look at football. Would it ever make sense to call someone the best football player ever? No, because they're only the best at one role in football. In League we have people that only play one champion well or one role well, and that's it. If you want ranks to actually mean something, you've got to split those factors out of the ranked system. I might be a Gold 5 Xerath, but a Bronze 4 Vayne. The system never new how to handle that. You've always been able to play every game with a duo partner, you never got a sperate rank for solo vs duo.

TL;DR: is naïve to think ranked has been more accurate or less accurate than it is now.

That's just not true. It meant something and that was supported by a lot of statistical models. It's the reason that a thing such as eloboosting is even possible and detectable. It's true that it wasn't officially very fine-grained but as an OVERALL ranking, it was quite accurate. If you want more details, you can look-up people's winrates, use sites like lolskill to find who MIGHT be the best at X champion etc. However, to get a good idea for that, players would need large samples on each of their champions and that's not very doable or realistic. Duo still existed and that can distort results a bit but it's nothing as bad as 4-5 man ques. Solo que was mostly about your own skill and mastery.

The football comparison doesn't make sense because there isn't a ladder for it where you can easily start matchmaking that tries to fairly pair you vs other peers who are also alone. There are also many physical and logistical problems to doing something like that. I don't think anyone will play 300 football games a season so the sample size issue is only magnified. The resources of each organization and other players matters too and there is no effort to make each match about an equal chance for either team. It's an entirely different type of thing and not even remotely similar beyond the fact that both have teams. It's a valid comparison to LCS but not to solo que in any way. In pure solo que, all the other factors don't matter if you play enough games. Just like in poker, everyone has roughly the same luck in the end with enough hands. In solo que, you might get some afks/trolls etc. but so does everyone else so it's a consistent situation and some players still climb.

SoMNia1 votes

Summoner's Rift is 5v5 no matter how you queue up. But if that's not enough for you, there is that upcoming solo-only queue.

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

Ok heres the thing: even if something gives people "freelo", theres a limit to where they can get with it. Remember drophacking? A silver wont drophack into challenger because after a certain point theyre just never going to win a game, despite never losing (id say thats plat or so).

I dont care who someone is playing with, if they get a couple ranks above where they belong theyre probably gonna be too hard to carry. And at the end of the day ranks are just to put people who play at similar levels together. Rank is a measure of average game performance and theres already a ton of variation there so i cant even say how much this will add. I see someone with a diamond border next season and ill assume competence, not "well maybe a silver who got carried by a dynamic queue"

ofart1 votes

{quoted}

Ok heres the thing: even if something gives people "freelo", theres a limit to where they can get with it. Remember drophacking? A silver wont drophack into challenger because after a certain point theyre just never going to win a game, despite never losing (id say thats plat or so).

I dont care who someone is playing with, if they get a couple ranks above where they belong theyre probably gonna be too hard to carry. And at the end of the day ranks are just to put people who play at similar levels together. Rank is a measure of average game performance and theres already a ton of variation there so i cant even say how much this will add. I see someone with a diamond border next season and ill assume competence, not "well maybe a silver who got carried by a dynamic queue"

Ranked is supposed to be a means to compare players not just providing good matchmaking. Riot could potentially provide good matchmaking in every format but the whole point to having a ranking is to be able to say which players are better. Of course there is some variation, as you said, but overall, the difference between Tiers tends to be quite noticeable. And honestly for a Dynamic Que ranking, I wouldn't assume much of anything outside of it. There are just too many variables mixed into one ranking. It's like if I gave you a list of the "best" four legged animals. There are so many different types that the whole idea makes no sense. Are we going to compare a cat to a dog and then to a cow? It's pointless. Same here, I don't know if your dynamic que ranking is solo performance, 5-man or whatever so I'm unable to judge you as a player relative to another person's dynamic que ranking.

Wizzleboom1 votes

Solo Players in Dynamic Que =

Their team: 4 man premade

Your team: Potato

ofart1 votes

{quoted}

Solo Players in Dynamic Que =

Their team: 4 man premade

Your team: Potato

That actually rarely happens according to Riot but it doesn't make it any less accurate.

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