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Melee APs & Defensive Itemization

PrometheS·5/7/2018, 3:58:23 PM·32 votes·12,606 views

Unlike standard mids who can go hybrid offensive/defensive items like Rylai's and Liandry's (these items don't fit diving melee mids), I think this is a bit lacking for melee burst APs. Most melee APs want stuff like LB but are too squishy if going it earlier. Unlike Ori or Xerath who have some usefulness from a distance, the diving mids just seem incapable of going full AP without actually making their late game WORSE. You'd expect harder scaling but it actually just becomes too risky to play so it doesn't matter (you need HP and resists). Even Fizz, the slipperiest of them all gets Zhonya's or Protobelt first and often dips into Resolve. These champions just can't function without some tankiness and there aren't many good tanky but damage items. Abyssal just got nerfed this patch and while it is good, it's awkward to build and only vs magic damage.

What am I suggesting? I'm not sure but I was looking into the max scaling builds for assassins like Ekko and realized that the big ticket items are hard to fit in without being so squishy that it's unviable or giving up Sheen damage. It's even worse if I want to o Nashor's and LB in the same build.

Example for JG Ekko: Runic LB Sorc Nashor VS Rabadon's

The funny thin is that this is the highest DPS build possible for him but it's just totally unviable. If it works, you'd probably win that game anyway and it doesn't matter what you build. If it's an even game, you just get melted in 2 seconds. I once tried to throw a W on the enemy team and I died mid dash towards my W. What a waste of 16k gold. I want to go max damage on a lot of these melee APs but it just doesn't seem to work. I even tried RoA for some tankiness but it delays the spike so much for minimal benefit that I feel forced into these mid game items. Meanwhile, Anivia and other mids have no problem building for some incredible scaling and even taking Gathering Storm on top of it and maxing CDR + being tankier than me.

I sort of like IBG but it has WAAAY too much mana that I don't want or need. If that mana could be halved and instead I get a Ruby Crystal of HP, it would already be better.

/Rambling

47 Comments

DW Diana5/7/2018, 4:39:23 PM10 votes

Think of Diana. She's an AP diver, like irelia. Notice much difference between her Itemization and AP assassins? She has Nashors Tooth. That's it.

ZT Xperimentor5/7/2018, 5:05:43 PM7 votes

It's as if an assassin's mobility is their defense, what you're suggesting is more fitting for magic melee carries, such as mordekaiser & rumble.

Dead flag blues5/7/2018, 4:00:02 PM6 votes

Rushing item 3001 item 3152 item 3047 on Ekko is actually viable (and really bs knowing how tanky he gets while still having this dumbass burst)

exigentomic5/7/2018, 4:15:44 PM4 votes

Melee attack damage carries, even assassins, have it a lot easier too. They can go Ninja Tabi and Maw. Black Cleaver also adds some tankiness if they choose to use it. APs have more vulnerable builds if they also want to be big damage threats and they're usually not capable of the same sustained damage either.

CasterGilgamesh5/7/2018, 6:34:47 PM4 votes

we need more AP fighter items ap champions lack so much itemization

SpecterVonBaren5/8/2018, 4:17:00 AM3 votes

But... Ekko's supposed to not build tanky. That was the point of them tuning him to be an Assassin and he has safety in his overall mobility and CC.

A much MUCH better example of a melee AP that needs help with their itemization is Rumble. He has no hard CC, only has a movespeed boost for mobility and once he goes into a fight he's either destroying people or he's pulling a Jebediah and rocketing to the Mun.

Targon5/7/2018, 7:39:10 PM2 votes

As a person who mains a champion who should be an AP fighter (and who builds near full glass cannon because that's their only viable build path), I agree completely. AP fighters can't even compete against AD fighters because of their itemization and poor scaling (like you mentioned)

A year ago, someone had mentioned an AP version of Black Cleaver. Maybe something along the stats of would be good:

AP Black Cleaver: 3000g 400 Health 70 AP 20% CDR Passive: Basic attacks reduce magic resistance by 5%, stacking up to 6 times. Passive: RAGE: Basic attacks (on-hit) grant +20 flat movement speed for 2 seconds. Killing a Unit grants +60 flat movement speed instead. (Maybe make this item melee only to prevent potential abuse cases, e.g. Kayle, Azir, Teemo)

Even an AP Blade of the Ruined King could be nice:

AP BotRK: 3200g 70 AP 40% Attack Speed Passive: Basic attacks deal 8% of the target's current health (min 15) bonus on-hit magical damage (max 60 against minions and monsters). Passive: Basic attacks heal for (15% AP) health on-hit. (This is in place of spell vamp because many AP melees can't make great use of spell vamp with their abilities dealing AOE damage).

SirLapse5/7/2018, 11:22:41 PM2 votes

CDR is still an important stat so I don't see Nashor's as a particularly bad item, it's just unsafe early but ironically is the best option available. Protobelt honestly is a very effective first item, but Lich Bane should be replacing Rabadon's directly for AP divers as a third item. The similarity between them and mages makes it so that they both have to be tuned differently despite sharing the items. Spellbinder's currently shares this identity however so Idk what the plan should really be.

We need Lich Bane to have easier AP access but still push it more as a third item. More AP and less mana behind it as a start maybe? Definitely need an AP version of Sheen as part of the build path since base AD and the relevant champs who use Tri Force and IBG actually scale better.

Divers don't really prefer the attack speed from Nashor's as much as the added dueling power. I would rather a new item be introduced that is closer to an Edge of Night for AP divers where you get a channeled shield for a few seconds and primarily is built off of health and AP, but also gives much needed CDR that AP divers miss out on by not taking Nashor's. It should also be more for escapes or approaches rather than fighting.

Hextech Revolver is really good for what it does early on but you can't have that + Nashor's and realistically keep it for the mid game when you need tankier options. Either your Zhonya or Void Staff has to be paid up for in opportunity cost. And most of these champions don't have dual scaling so you can't go Gunblade despite it being ultimately the best option for divers on item active and emphasis on burst.

I'd rather not alienate Lich Bane by making it experience major shifts since it is an additional AP ratio to your best combos. It would be more effective for divers if it recovered mana after the proc or maybe even after takendowns/assists. The problem is that getting it too early is meaningless because it doesn't scale properly like base AD normal Sheen (thus my AP Sheen suggestion) but getting it later just makes it a needless "win more" condition that won't nearly scale as well as Void Staff or Rabadon. If it was a damage amp that you could only achieve after casting a spell and auto'ing thereafter, it would make more sense.

We should probably rethink spellweaving in the sense of cast > AA (rinse+repeat) and instead apply more as it is actually seen for AP divers; casting with occasional autos that undoubtedly still is mostly casting. The even damage spread has to be activated by the auto and maintained by the idea of how quick casts are happening for divers, as they do not auto reset as of current for their best burst scenarios and involve that instead when dueling, which is not going to happen in teamfights. Making an actual storage of bonus damage to involve fast multi-spell combos born from the auto is more realistic than a single-hit interaction, and vastly more approachable for AP divers compared to ranged mages who do not want to be forced to auto's for their best rotations. This also makes sense for when Lich Bane currently is effective and ineffective, though it is obviously still lacking. Other items need to be made to better accommodate this playstyle in general, not just a Lich Bane rework. It's why AP jungling even if you make it out of early game will not largely see much success unless you can work with the current mage itemization.

My last observation on the matter is that mage-like divers only need to be so tanky because they're putting themselves at high risk and cannot escape or keep bursting like Katarina. In fact, Katarina, Leblanc, and Ahri all fit what mage divers should look like; they should have a burst combo as well as an escape to ensure that they won't die for performing to the limit. Even Fizz has this limitation to some extent but also this advantage, so he suffers much less than something like Diana. Hell even Kennen in comparison has enough AoE burst + CC to make his best play have WAY less risk, especially with Zhonya's involved.

Essentially: -Mage divers need more items, especially ones that add more safety and mobility to the all-in's conclusion since if the kit is designed well enough, it will be able to make a play in the first place without said items.

-Damage spread has to make more sense in terms of how AP divers make their combos and interactions. Higher downtime in exchange for higher play potential. Items must also represent this in terms of what they build.

-AP Diver first item must be equivalent or better than Protobelt for gap closing and doing tons of damage. It is already a good item, though one can debate as to how effective it actually is.

-If possible AP Divers should want to access Presence of Mind to better assist with mana issues.

Shablagoo5/7/2018, 11:59:10 PM2 votes

You do know ekko is an assassin right? He isnt suppose to be tanky.item 3152 item 3151 item 3165 And looking at that thats already 900 health right there I think they have enough hp as it is.

SenorBobbers5/7/2018, 5:28:00 PM2 votes

Even Fizz, the slipperiest of them all gets Zhonya's or Protobelt first and often dips into Resolve.

You clearly don't know how to play the EZ mode that is Fizz

TonyTonyMordecai5/7/2018, 8:07:27 PM1 votes

Imagine if we had AP Tiamat items, one that gives more damage and one that gives defenses in exchange for less damage stats. Maybe make them melee only as well, or make one be able to be used on ranged AP marksmen. That would be pretty cool.

Larriet5/7/2018, 10:59:42 PM1 votes

Correct me if I'm wrong, but melee AP champs are either tanky anyway (Mordekaiser, Rumble, Singed, Galio) and are usually played Top and not mid, and the other AP melee champs are assassins (Akali, Ekko, Katarina, Evelynn) and being high-risk-high-reward (read: diving ends in either a kill or death, nothing else) is the entire point of the playstyle. Mages being "useful from a distance" lategame was the entire point of the mana changes so that, relatively, melee midlaners wouldn't fall off compared to ranged ones. If an assassin is unable to assassinate, then having better defenses is pointless because they are pointless, and if they have strong(ish) defenses and can still kill you with a full rotation (extreme burst damage, not DPS), they lack counterplay. Am I mistaken somewhere?

LilxPaprika5/7/2018, 4:12:03 PM1 votes

it would be cool if you could dial in how much mana IBG gives you. In turn it could give you some armor and increase the sheen dmg procs by a small %. Maybe by a factor of 8%. For every 100 mana removed. Up to -300mana. Only doable from shop

Or could give you ad or ap adaptively in exchange for less mana.

SirPurrr5/7/2018, 4:51:59 PM1 votes

Imagine if LB, like Trinity had some HP along with it. That would make it a more attractive item for divers and that's who it's really intended for anyway.

IS1a35739310e64704643995/7/2018, 6:40:22 PM1 votes

we need a new item with these features :

cost : 3000 gold 80 ap 20 % cdr 800 health : this bonus health is halfed when there is no ability in cd.

unique passive : you receive 80 armor when hit by a basic attack. this bonus decay in 5 seconds

PopcornBunni5/7/2018, 7:44:17 PM1 votes

item 3091 needs to be much more slot efficient for AP bruisers to be a viable route.