I don't like that Warmog's has CDR now and here's why

PrometheS·Sep 10, 2016·26 votes·2,457 views

I'd rather have the HP and more build flexibility. I want Warmogs when I'm either going to play very aggro and then back off or I'm taking a lot of poke. I shouldn't have to worry about whether it'll take me over the cap or not. I'd rather that power was channeled into some other aspect. Right now, there are almost too many CDR items and it's making it harder to pick them for the niche I want because of wasting CDR.

btw: thoughts on Frozen Heart?

85 Comments

DunkinNoobsSep 10, 201616 votes

You don't get penalized for building more than 40% CDR. You know that right? Who cares if building Warmogs will put you over 40% sometimes; you either want Warmogs or you don't and the 10% CDR it now has shouldn't affect your decision on whether or not to get it.

Gary B EnkelisSep 10, 20164 votes

The gold you spend for the unused CDR is wasted, in a way, perhaps. The "penalty" for going over the cap is the gold that could have gone towards another item is going towards unused stats.

DunkinNoobsSep 10, 201611 votes

Is Warmogs still better than the alternative without considering the CDR? Yes? Then you still get it. It's really that simple.

And realistically, how are you going to go over 40% CDR on a tank anyway? item 3110 item 3065 item 3083 is a clean 40%, I don't know what other CDR you would even want to build.

Gary B EnkelisSep 10, 20162 votes

Yeah, I don't know what other CDR you would want for a tank. I'm saying what can happen if you go over the cap.

Let's say you have CDR from runes. 10%. If you build those items and reach 50% CDR then maybe you're better replacing your runes? I don't know.

BLACK REALM GODSep 10, 20161 votes

item 3071 item 3025 item 3190 item 3056

there are quite a few others but they dont provide a lot of hp or armor so i left them out. zhonyas also gives 10%

EvewynnSep 10, 20168 votes

What's that one on the end? Is that new?

AsphodelNextSep 10, 20161 votes

Shhhhhh, Ohmwrecker, don't cry. Your day will come... or Riot will eventually decide to delete you....

BLACK REALM GODSep 11, 20161 votes

I'm betting on deletion. They've already replaced it twice in the game. I think it used to be a summoner spell right? It's just too much risk for reward because players think the only thing they can do with it is dive when actually there are 4 things you can do with it. Maybe more

AsphodelNextSep 11, 20161 votes

Honestly, the effect is what's really holding it back. Like, if they gave it competitive stats or a better stat distribution, it would become a snowball item that would let you dive endlessly. So they gave it terrible stats, so nobody buys it. Like, if it had the stat point of Dead Man's Plate/Sunfire, with 500 Health 50 Armor and no regen or CDR, people would buy it all the time.

BLACK REALM GODSep 11, 20161 votes

Personally I think they should take the hp and armor OUT and make it build off of something other than raptors cloak. That passive is better not given to a tank considering that armor weakens turret damage. It'd be a great support item if it had passive gold or mana regen or if it built off of damage and health regen it could be a junglers best friend. Instead it runs raptor cloak :/

AptestSep 11, 20161 votes

the correct stat distribution for ohmwrecker is AD/AS/Crit

BLACK REALM GODSep 11, 20161 votes

I disagree. The passive is too strong for that. I recommend either hp regeneration + critical percent or hp and mp regen + movement and cdr.

AptestSep 11, 20161 votes

mp regen is shit stat. nobody wants or needs more of it. pure gold sink. hp regen? I think that outside of pure early game I havn't seen this stat making any kind of impact. another gold sink shit stat. CDR is an overly abundant stat that just needs to not get slapped onto every support item.

your suggestion amounts to this: the active is very powerful. so to balance the item, give it a bunch of non stats. Then we are in same positions as today.

you want ohmwrecker to see play? either sell the active super early dirt cheap and enjoy dive meta, or give it stats that synergize with characters that may want to get it (junglers and split pushing top lane). this means offensive stats. Specifically: AD, AS, %crit, AP, and maybe MS.

tanks wont get it either way. they do the same work with a RO

BLACK REALM GODSep 11, 20161 votes

you assume too much. regen would be very important in a "dive meta" because ohmwrecker only works for 2 seconds. that's not long enough to dive in and back out unless you have a dash or you want to waste flash.

i dont think it has to come to that though. if you give it attack speed damage and critical marksmen will just buy it and sink towers without a pushed lane. unless you barely give it any stats at all at which point then you'd truly be wasting gold.

so far there isnt an item the gives regen and criticals. nor is there an item that gives gold and damage. lots of new combinations could be made for an item tree. i think ohmwrecker though would work best as a reward for dive item instead of a help your dive item.

and at this point cooldown is slapped on everything so it doesnt even matter. in all honesty you're not even paying more for it anymore.

another thing they COULD do but not necessarily do... is make the active a passive that disables turrets for 2 seconds when earning a kill within the turrets range. put it on a 90 second cooldown or something. then maybe they could give it some offensive stats.

Erractic EickSep 10, 20161 votes

It's a niche item for fighting with and around towers.

BLACK REALM GODSep 11, 20161 votes

It makes a great item for new yorick. Especially if you buy hp and attack damage+attack speed+armor penetration. Other than yorick you can use it on the dual nexus turrets to help prevent a portion of damage when you run out of minions. It's great for divers too, but the one thing I hate is that it zzrot and orb build from raptor cloak making them less effective when bought together. Those 3 plus banner of command and a lot of hp make split pushing easy. Plus they're pretty cheap. I built zzrot on morgana after losing two turrets and held the 3rd one for a LONG time. Made 2k gold on it and 2k gold on frost fang by timing my w around when my passive was active. Banner of command was easily dispatched because it was easier to notice than those purple voidlings. Lots of players don't realize how powerful voidlings are when built on a pure hp build. Until they lose their turret in 4 voidling hits.

RalanrSep 10, 20164 votes

A tank wouldn't build BC.

BLACK REALM GODSep 11, 20161 votes

Just so you know... Tanks do build black cleaver. It stacks with hydra I think and if not regardless it is useful for taking rift herald. Besides that if you're trying to say tanks don't do damage bruisers do blah blah blah then that's a silly argument to make, because most players don't even acknowledge bruiser as a term. Most only use tank mage support marksman assassin and fighter. Only a small population even saw the post about the names. Until the client is changed I just use the old terms. Other than that if you think black cleaver is better on attack speed based champions then yes I agree, but who says you can't build runaans or phantom dancer too? Or wits end or static shiv? You're going to die in 4 seconds whether you have 400 armor or 600 3k hp or 5k That'd make two items that give you something besides just hp and armor. And personally I think phantom dancer belongs on all tank sub classes. Especially since you can use it to prevent a little bit of the damage of whoever you initiate on and it allows walking through minions.

RalanrSep 11, 20162 votes

People used the term bruiser long before juggernauts were a thing. People understood the difference of a tank and bruiser long before this season and last season.

Tanks. Do not. Build. item 3071 .

The only exception I can think of is Sion and maybe Poppy , but it isn't a good idea.

BLACK REALM GODSep 11, 20161 votes

The only people who use any term other than the basic lane+role combos - marksman support mage tank assassin fighter mid top bottom jungle ADC - are the players who play other mobas, mmos, etc where the composition of the games roles are similar or the high tier/high tier wannabes that adapted it to help distinguish abilities and builds. Until the new client comes out so every bronze through gold noob can see all it does is cause confusion in the lower levels.

Oh really? Building an item that grants some hp, 20% cool down reduction, moderate attack damage and reduces armor per successful basic attack isn't worth building on a tank? I'm guessing you play support tank then because if you don't make a tank do at least a little damage no one is going to care that you're even there. Honestly at 6 items per build I'm putting some form of penetration or damage on otherwise I might as well be playing blitzcrank or alistar hoping to get a turret kill to keep me in lane. I'm sure you understand that. No other item gives both health and penetration - even if it's a debuff per basic attack at 2 basic attacks your marksman is going to be able to deal significantly more damage.

RalanrSep 11, 20161 votes

What tank is going to straight up auto attack long enough for that to work?

Resistances are more important than AD to them. Most tanks don't even have AD scalings.

Sunfire cape is enough damage on a tank imo. I play Sion top, so I guess you could say I don't need to build much damage on him at all.

BLACK REALM GODSep 11, 20161 votes

item 3071 grants 50 damage 300 hp and 20% cooldown - none of which are unique actives or passives. then you get the 5% stacking for 6 seconds up to 30% debuff on your enemies armor for dealing physical damage - says nothing about basic attacking. and the final Rage buff for when you hit an enemy with physical damage - not basic attacks - grants you movement speed. then it also grants you more movement speed if someone kills a target you've cleaved or if you kill a target. it's a great item for tanks especially tanks that do physical damage.

before i name some tanks that i think it would be good on we should clear some things up first. who do you consider a tank? if i type "tank" into the champion search bar everything from aatrox to zac shows up. if i type in bruiser or juggernaut exactly 0 show up. so if the game doesnt define them as either (at least not yet) then we need to be on similar grounds of understanding what YOU specifically would consider a tank not the game. so list for me all of the tanks in the game and i'll pick some that black cleaver would fit on. it'll be like a fun game.

RalanrSep 11, 20161 votes

I'm bored. So Sure.

TahmKench Braum Leona Blitzcrank Thresh Taric

These I keep seperate because they are primarily played in support. Other tanks have been played in support, but for the purpose of this discussion we'll use their intended roles of Top, mid, and jungle (Blitzcrank is an interesting case because he was actually originally built for top, but multiple seasons of supporting have thrust him into the support lane for what his kit offers).

Alistar Amumu Chogath Galio Malphite Maokai Nautilus Poppy Rammus Sejuani Shen Sion Zac

Now one thing you should notice about all of these champions is that tank is their primary role. Their secondary role doesn't really matter much at all in classification (there are exceptions of course. But exceptions are not the rule. If that were the case, Xerath would be considered an assassin).

But there is more to it than just that. Each of these champions has some form of CC or built in peel mechanism. Alistar has his headbutt and knock up. Braum has his slow, stun passive, and knock up ult. Amumu has two stuns. Maokai root and knock up. Shen and Galio have taunts on top of effects that benefit allies defensively. Poppy has a wall stun, an anti dash field, and a disengage ult that can be used offensively.

I'm not going to describe every champions ability, that will make this more of a text wall.

No I'll show you what shows up when you choose tanks in the shop rather than look at their primary search in the champions filter on your profile in the client (because the client still has some old functions and (as you pointed out) Riot has not actually input the new classes and subclasses into the client. This does not mean that they are not to be used.).

Aatrox Darius Hecarim Volibear Shyvana MonkeyKing Renekton Trundle DrMundo Garen Nasus Olaf Udyr Warwick Vladimir Illaoi Yorick

Now these champions have tank as their secondary. Meaning they have some aspects of a tank, but not enough to actually allow them to be a proper tank for a team. Their are at best, meatshields that provide huge damage. Because that is what their kits are built for, dealing damage and surviving fights.

Tank kits are not designed to deal fighter (which is what those champions primarily are) level damage. Tanks can do damage, but only enough to make glass cannons afraid of them. These fighters do not have the same level of utility as actual tanks. Mundo just has a slow. Darius has a hook with a short range. Nasus has a slow, and it's a damn powerful one, but he can only hit one target, which is mainly so that when he's at a massive number of stacks, he can kill that target by preventing them to run away.

There are obvious outliers, as Riot pointed out there would be in the subclasses. Skarner for example was originally a juggernaut, but Riot plans on switching him to the vanguard class due to how his kit actually works.

Singed is primarily a tank, but has such a weird kit that I can't imagine him really fitting into the role. Especially how he's a primarily split push champion and tanks are more teamfight focused. I guess you could call him a split push juggernaut.

JarvanIV is primarily a tank, but his numbers have been changed so much that he's either played as a full AD assassin or a form of bruiser. So I'm not sure I can consider him to be one. I'll be fine if I am wrong though.

Interesting tidbit: Tanks can build like fighters and fighters can build like tanks. They use very similar items (mainly the health part). It's just that many tanks do not actually function as well as fighters when building like a fighter, and vice versa (though of course people will still call tanks broken if Garen has no AD items yet one hit kills the villain with his ult while the villain is low).

Gragas was an AP bruiser, but his utility has made him into more of a tank in the recent years and will probably be labeled as such.

RekSai has become a knock up bot. I don't know what Riot plans for her.

Gnar : I personally don't think he's in his mega form enough to count as a tank, but that's what Riot calls him.

Though if you didn't want to read all of this or still have doubts as to what Riot considers a tank. Please read the following link.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

Now, Tanks that can utilize Black Cleaver are as follows:

Gnar Sion Poppy and (if you consider him a tank) JarvanIV .

Tanks that Black Cleaver is both core and very much viable on are as follows: Gnar and (again, if you consider him a tank) JarvanIV .

Please tell me what you consider a tank is and why. And if you're reasoning is, "because they are tanky" then please know that I have heard that answer hundreds of times. It is not what makes a tank a tank, not alone.

BLACK REALM GODSep 11, 20161 votes

Tanks

Vanguards

Malphite
Amumu
Leona
Zac
Gragas
Rammus
Mega Gnar
Sejuani
Rek’Sai
Sion
Nautilus
Skarner

Wardens

Braum
Nunu
Tahm Kench
Maokai
Shen
Thresh
Alistar
Poppy
 Galio (hybrid Battle Mage)

that post right?

Malphite HIs W does physical damage and is a basic attack boost. would work very well with item 3071 Leona Q is a basic attack buff and she's played support very often. 's rage would allow her to say in range for her other abilities without having to waste her grab and it would provide armor penetration for her marksman. in top lane she'd still benefit from the rage - the only other item with that being trinity force which buffs basic attacks immensely but requires spell weaving which leona cant do because of her higher cooldowns. Gnar can use it in both forms, but you already knew that. Sejuani gets to apply more basic attacks which adds stacks and the rage movement speed buff grants her even greater speeds for keeping her flail in the air near her enemies. RekSai <confuses me as to why theyre on the list but her Q is an obvious one and her other abilities do physical damage. she's a fury basic attacker with true damage that is slow out of her burrow. rage can help with that and the 300 hp is nice. Sion only benefit really with sion is his passive but it's still pretty effective if you brought cleanse so you can keep running after death instead of being CC'd to death. his Q and R do physical so they'd cleave the opponent. Skarner can use it very well. helps with his Q specifically and grants movement speed after using your R so you can get your enemies somewhere faster. Braum his stacking system means that once you hit your opponent you're going to either want to hit them again or someone else will do it for you. since he's played support that's probably going to be your marksman. physical damage. very limited but braum's not really about dealing damage on his own. and if you do decide to stick around and use your basic attack 4 times to stack for the stun you'll have the movement speed needed to do so and do more damage overall. Nunu can use it when playing his with some attack speed since his W and passive support it. your marksman will thank you. TahmKench rage. should be obvious. he's a support. Shen after a taunt basic attack 1 time then run past them and block their escape then Q W. your team will finish them off and if not you have your Q ready to go. it still does physical damage in addition to the magic damage since it's a basic attack i think right? i might be wrong. Thresh is an on hit basic attack support. your ADC will thank you. especially if you use rage on a minion after throwing a latern to them and running away so they can dive. rage doesnt say anything about dealing physical damage to champions. Alistar use rage to keep up with your opponent. his abilities are all magic damage but his kit is lacking power since it's mostly about repositioning your opponent so someone else can damage them. cleave will help with that for every basic attack you perform. if you're playing alistar right you should be performing quite a bit of basic attacks. combine with wits end to increase the damage output of your entire team. Poppy her Q E and R do physical damage. that's 3 cleaves and some movement speed. add in a basic attack and you have 4 cleaves. also it can be used to run away when things go poorly if you miss your E.

the rest i wouldnt build it on without changing their in game identity.

i used the list riot made.

i only consider tanks tanks if they are classified by the game as a tank. if i "build tank" that means im imitating a tank. i use the game's current definition system because it helps everyone know what im talking about. i dont use PBE terms or board jargon because it will confuse those who arent in the know. and a lot of players in my division arent in the know.

RalanrSep 11, 20161 votes

I have rarely seen any of those champions actually build item 3071 . But I digress.

It's clear we aren't going to agree on this subject, so let's just agree to disagree. Whoever is right isn't actually going to affect either of us.

BLACK REALM GODSep 11, 20161 votes

just because you havent seen it doesnt mean it isnt there. try it yourself. most builds are about personal gain and flexibility not team value. items like black cleaver are team value items. if your team is all ability power there's no point to buying it. if your enemies dont have a tank building armor there's no point to it. it's a situational item and probably will always need to be left up to the player to decide if it's worth the gold.

it's fine to disagree. im glad you at least took the time to acknowledge my input and didnt flame me too much for it.

RalanrSep 11, 20161 votes

Oh you meant as a situational pick. I completely misunderstood you, I assumed you menat it as a core item. My mistake.

And no problem. I try to be at least conversational on topics in the forums. I'd rather not spread more fire.

ofartSep 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You don't get penalized for building more than 40% CDR. You know that right? Who cares if building Warmogs will put you over 40% sometimes; you either want Warmogs or you don't and the 10% CDR it now has shouldn't affect your decision on whether or not to get it.

You do indirectly because you're not using an item to its maximal efficiency. It matters a lot because your build relative to opponents will be less effective and you're not spiking as hard from it. It's like playing Mundo and buying no HP items. You're not penalized but he was balanced around the idea that you'd take advantage of his HP scalings and when you don't build that way, he becomes much weaker. Items were also designed with balance around the idea that a champion can use all its stats so if you go over the cap for CDR, it always means there's a problem with your build and you aren't doing something right.

DunkinNoobsSep 10, 20161 votes

Efficiency doesn't occur in a vacuum m8. Stats are only worth as much as they do for you.

PrometheSSep 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Efficiency doesn't occur in a vacuum m8. Stats are only worth as much as they do for you.

While true, a champion who can use all stats on an item will almost always be stronger than those who pay the same for the item but can't make use of all the stats (40% CDR already, maybe mana on a manaless champion, AP on an AD champion etc.). It's suboptimal and your build or runes are usually wrong if an item would take you over 40% CDR.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 10, 20164 votes

Frozen heart is a piece of crap that you only build over randuins if you really need some cdr (which is abundant in so many other items currently so you shouldnt ever need it).

SpecterVonBarenSep 10, 20161 votes

Not on tank items it isn't.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Not on tank items it isn't.

Yes it is. It's mediocre. The only time it's decent is if you buy both randuins and frozen since the AS slows stack in a multiplicative manner.

SpecterVonBarenSep 11, 20161 votes

Uh........ I was talking about CDR on tank items.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Uh........ I was talking about CDR on tank items.

"Not on tank items it isn't."

Nothing in there hints towards you talking about cdr.

SpecterVonBarenSep 11, 20161 votes

"Frozen heart is a piece of crap that you only build over randuins if you really need some cdr (which is abundant in so many other items currently so you shouldnt ever need it)."

This is what I replied to, how would you NOT think I was talking about CDR?

A little PeepoSep 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Frozen heart is a piece of crap that you only build over randuins if you really need some cdr (which is abundant in so many other items currently so you shouldnt ever need it).

Personally I like frozen heart on some champions since I'm not a big fan of thorn mail in its current state. It's definitely not an item I would rush but definitely an amazing item on champions who want the cdr, armor and mana it gives. But again that's on certain champions like malph (although ibg can generally be a better buy over frozen) Galio or choggie are champions that would generally love this item and even sejuani but I can see how this item wouldn't be all that great on champions like gnar, Darius, rammus, zac, ect

Tychusfindlay919Sep 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Personally I like frozen heart on some champions since I'm not a big fan of thorn mail in its current state. It's definitely not an item I would rush but definitely an amazing item on champions who want the cdr, armor and mana it gives. But again that's on certain champions like malph (although ibg can generally be a better buy over frozen) Galio or choggie are champions that would generally love this item and even sejuani but I can see how this item wouldn't be all that great on champions like gnar, Darius, rammus, zac, ect

I had already stated that FH is bought when you need cdr, otherwise it's better to just get randuins. There's no real need for this post.

A little PeepoSep 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I had already stated that FH is bought when you need cdr, otherwise it's better to just get randuins. There's no real need for this post.

Well the forums don't revolve around you and your opinion. OP said to give out thoughts on FH which is what I did and ur post just went off saying it was garbage and I replied that FH is pretty much a niche item on certain champions over others, that simple.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well the forums don't revolve around you and your opinion. OP said to give out thoughts on FH which is what I did and ur post just went off saying it was garbage and I replied that FH is pretty much a niche item on certain champions over others, that simple.

No but the reply that I quoted revolves around my post. That simple.

A little PeepoSep 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No but the reply that I quoted revolves around my post. That simple.

Nope, your post clearly started with FH is complete garbage, that's why I replied but some of that was directed towards OP so my bad on that

Gary B EnkelisSep 10, 20161 votes

I like item 3110 when they have multiple champions that need attack speed and I may not be their focus. item 3143 and such don't proc if they don't attack you. I'll build it on a support.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I like when they have multiple champions that need attack speed and I may not be their focus. and such don't proc if they don't attack you. I'll build it on a support.

FH is a tank item, if you aren't being focused as a juggernaut/tank then you're not playing the champion correctly.

CeexSettSep 10, 20164 votes

item 3110 is efficient if you need armor and CDR at the same time, the enemy team has lots of Attack Speed champions that aren't focusing you, or you have spammable shields Udyr Nautilus , since shields are technically bonus effective hp.

And then there is Nasus , who doesn't like you talking shit about FH.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

is efficient if you need armor and CDR at the same time, the enemy team has lots of Attack Speed champions that aren't focusing you, or you have spammable shields , since shields are technically bonus effective hp.

And then there is , who doesn't like you talking shit about FH.

"aren't focusing you"

If you're playing a tank/juggernaut and you're being ignored then you're doing something wrong.

Nasus doesn't need frozen. Tri force, spirit visage, 10% cdr in your runes, randuins, zzrot, defense boots, and GA is sufficient.

CeexSettSep 10, 20161 votes

"aren't focused at first" taught it was obvious.

Frozen heart is better than randuins in Nasus, even if CDR is capped already.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

"aren't focused at first" taught it was obvious.

Frozen heart is better than randuins in Nasus, even if CDR is capped already.

Not true, randuins helps a ton with Nasus's disgusting ability to be kited like a fool. Have you ever read the randuins active?

CeexSettSep 11, 20161 votes

That is true, but i still think FH is better, since is offers more raw armor, that sinergizes better with his health boost ultimate and passive lifesteal.

BLACK REALM GODSep 11, 20161 votes

It's efficient if you need mana and the passive. That's the selling point.

doubleguacSep 10, 20161 votes

I used to buy Frozen Heart on a lot of tanks who needed CDR. But there's so many other CDR options, it's lost its niche. It's still cost efficient, but in most cases I feel like Sunfire, Randuins, and Deadman's are more useful.

What other stats would you want to see on Warmogs?