The only thing I could see is tri force change but it seems that its not even being buy that much on him.
so what happened did he accidentally got stealth buffed or is it a new bug?
Is there something I am missing out?
RiotMeddler10 votesCombination of things from what we've seen. First is that other popular top laners got nerfed (Maokai and Ekko). Second is a bug fix to his E where it wouldn't always pull enemies properly if they were dashing as it was cast.
At a guess the E's probably a much bigger change than it sounds on paper, given we've seen his win rate go up a bit over 3%. Changes to other popular champs don't normally change another champ that much, even if they always share a lane when in game together.
TheHurricaneGamr2 votesIs it possible that it is a statistical fluke? Winrates are not everything.
RiotMeddler8 votesTehnically possible? Sure. At all likely? No, we've seen a big enough sample size since the patch to believe there's a noticeable power increase there.
We don't have any immediate plans for Darius, it's certainly good to get some more understanding of just how impactful a change to his E reliability can be though.
TheHurricaneGamr1 votesInteresting.
5 Stacks GG3 votesDoes that mean Darius is gonna be looked at for a nerf?
Raid Boss Morde6 votesWe can only hope! (sorry, but fighting him as a melee champion is near impossible)
Malicious Metal5 votesI actually fair well against him as Morde but by GOD it's like defusing a bomb, one mistake and you're dead..
Raid Boss Morde1 votesPre-6 is pretty much impossible to beat him. It really all depends on if that Darius makes a huge mistake. Heck, even after 6, I've been dove by Darius many times. I think I just have a large hatred for him.
Luckily though, Morde outscales Darius pretty hard.
Tychusfindlay9191 votes[{quoted}](name=Raid Boss Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bxkZZlIQ,comment-id=00070001000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-07T17:59:06.602+0000)
Pre-6 is pretty much impossible to beat him. It really all depends on if that Darius makes a huge mistake. Heck, even after 6, I've been dove by Darius many times. I think I just have a large hatred for him.
Luckily though, Morde outscales Darius pretty hard.
Careful with that assumption. Darius Q has a very small CD late game and can be spammed against morde who moves slow as molasses. Maybe someone tested this, but I dont think mordes passive can outsustain noxian might when it gives 200 AD at max level.
Raid Boss Morde1 votesI've played a pretty large number of games with Morde vs. Darius. Lategame, your shield will absorb a lot of damage, and you'll easily outsustain AND outdamage Darius in fights. I've always found Darius falling off lategame, whereas Mordekaiser only gets stronger.
Ralanr2 votesHe's someone I always ban when I go Sion top.
I will lose lane outright.
Tychusfindlay9193 votesHe's someone I always ban when I go Sion top.
I will lose lane outright.
Sounds about right since Darius stat checks the shit out of sion hard and the pull not only prevents sion Q but brings sion to Darius's face.
l Helios l2 votesRespectfully disagree. Problem usually lies in people trying to fight Darius at his strong points and not at his weaknesses. Darius does have weaknesses that can be exploited. Trundle is a solid pick once you both hit 6. The Darius shouldn't really be able to kill you unless you mess up hard in a trade.
Raid Boss Morde1 votesThat's Trundle though, who also beats pretty much every melee laner, and is a god at trading.
l Helios l1 votesIf you play Jax correctly, he can beat a Darius. Or Renekton. Darius doesn't deserve any nerfs atm.
Raid Boss Morde1 votesAlso my point though, those two are also very strong top laners.
l Helios l1 votesBut you're saying to be a strong top laner, you use a strong top laner? Then don't Jax and Renekton deserve nerfs if they can beat soon who deserves nerfs? I'm confused as to what your point is.
Raid Boss Morde1 votesI'm just saying that Darius is strong, and in order to beat someone who is strong, you must also pick someone who is just as strong. My point is that Darius is very strong right now, and Jax kind of does deserves nerfs since the trinity buffs.
l Helios l1 votesI think it's a little early to be able to determine if Jax is indeed too strong. It's been only 1 week basically. I personally felt if anyone walked away from this patch being too strong, it would be Irelia and not Jax. I don't think Darius is worthy of being nerfed, considering he's been the same for quite some time. Meanwhile Irelia has been buffed several patches in a row and we now have the Tri force change. I would argue for an Irelia nerf before a Jax nerf personally, but we will see what happens.
I don't really think you have to play something strong to beat a Darius though. Gnar isn't super strong atm (he's solid but not op), but he can handle Darius if he plays well. Any champion who has high burst can beat Darius as long as they trade and escape his attempt at a re-engage. I mean, champions like J4 and Wukong can win, it's just not a cake-walk.
Raid Boss Morde1 votesI've played against a few Jax and many Irelias since the patch, and I will agree that Irelia is way stronger right now. I gotta agree with you on those points.
And yeah, I know Gnar can beat Darius, that's why I was saying melee. Pretty much anyone who can kite with destroy Darius. Those guys too, I know, but that's why I was saying near impossible. Like you said, it's nota cake-walk. Laning against Darius is just very difficult.
Syrai2 votesSo quick question,
Why can't I dodge the pull if I jumped out of its animation? Wouldn't that cause a clarity issue?
RiotMeddler8 votesYou can. The bug fixed here was that it wouldn't pull correctly sometimes while you were still inside it. You shouldn't be getting pulled back in when you've already cleared the area though.
darkdill6 votesOn the subject of Darius' E, do you think he really needs 25% Armor Penetration from it? None of the other juggernauts get that AND a powerful true damage ult, not to mention Darius' extreme synergy with Black Cleaver AND the potential 200 bonus AD from Noxian Might. Yeowch.
It feels like Darius gets a TON of free stats all over the place, meaning that trying to defend against his blows is a laughable idea.
I'm not saying to remove the ArPen, but 25% is a bit much. 20% could be more reasonable.
Tychusfindlay9197 votesOn the subject of Darius' E, do you think he really needs 25% Armor Penetration from it? None of the other juggernauts get that AND a powerful true damage ult, not to mention Darius' extreme synergy with Black Cleaver AND the potential 200 bonus AD from Noxian Might. Yeowch.
It feels like Darius gets a TON of free stats all over the place, meaning that trying to defend against his blows is a laughable idea.
I'm not saying to remove the ArPen, but 25% is a bit much. 20% could be more reasonable.
Many other juggernauts also have way more cc or mobility over him.
Darius, other than his pull and W, is a champion that can be kited to hell and back.
Also, most pulls in the game have on hit damage. Darius's pull does no damage by itself. If you took out the armor pen, then I would want on hit damage and bleed application upon being pulled in.
l Helios l3 votesIt may not help, but here's my thoughts on the stuff you talked about.
The passive is 200 bonus ad at level 18. It's 40 bonus ad at level 1 and scales up at about 9.5 ad per level. I don't think that's the unreasonable part when it comes to playing against him. The passive is also completely meaningless without getting the 5 stacks. It's not like he gains 20% of the bonus AD per stack; you actually have to work to get every single stack.
I'll agree getting stacks in a 1v1 scenario isn't too bad, it can actually be quite easy if you combo correctly, but it's much harder in full 5v5s. Here's why: if Darius wants to proc his passive really badly, he will continue to attack the same target, regardless of who it is. Doesn't matter if it's a Maokai or a Xerath since he can't carry over stacks on other targets like Jax passive. So by forcing him to attack that single target because he wants the passive proc, he's not focusing other targets. It works fine he gets to the ADC or mid, but not so much when he's just hitting the tanks because he can't get to the ADC. Sure he may get the proc on the tank, but the ADC has been hitting him the whole time and now he's less than 1/4. Now, he may not be able to make use of the proc other than just to finish a tank and hoping he can get a heal from his Q.
In regards to a "powerful true damage ult," Darius ult deals 100/200/300 true damage + 20% per stack of bleed + 75% bonus AD. For comparison, Cho'Gath ult deals 300/475/650 + 70% AP. So, without passive stacks, level 16 Darius ult deals less damage than level 11 Cho'Gath ult, almost less than level 6 Cho'Gath ult. Even at max bleed stacks, Cho'Gath ult would almost certainly still outdamage Darius ult at max level, abut 750 (assuming we only take in the bonus AD from passive, not items) versus the base on Cho'Gath being 650. So Cho'Gath only needs like 180 or so AP to outdamage Darius ult. So in a sense, Darius has to work for an effective ult while Cho'Gath doesn't.
On the same point, his ult is easy to mess up. That sounds funny, but I can't tell you the number of times I've ulted and guessed wrong by 100 hp or so. That, to me, is the most infuriating part of playing Darius. Lucky, I sometimes proc the passive and the bleed finishes it for me, so I can type "calculated" and feel better.
Part of why the ult is easy to mess up is because of the passive proc. The proc honestly gives a feeling of something like, "it's to f*** some people up." This causes people to just ult the second they get the proc and, more often than not, you fail because you didn't get them low enough to actually execute. Especially in teamfights when you do get a reset, if you just blindly ult without applying passive or looking at hp's so you're sure you're getting another reset, it's not going to be enough and your ult is now on CD. In respect to the passive's bonus AD, if you can't get the stacks like I was saying above, then your only hope is a reset with an ult kill. Ult damage is marginal without the full 5 from passive, so you almost end up in competition with your team to get a reset with ult unless the team intentionally donates to you so you get the reset. Many kills have been lost mid ult animation, many more because the reset wasnt triggered. Plus, his reset mechanic is unique in how he must get the kill with that specific ability, whereas Kha'zix, Tristana, and Katarina get resets just by being involved period. Obviously his is an ultimate that deals true damage and just got a bunch of bonus AD for the execute and their are mobility for Trist and Kha'zix and CD for Katarina, but the philosophy on the reset is unique for Darius vs. any other champion.
On the subject of the % armor pen: this one is definitely tricky because flat % armor pen doesn't really exist anymore since LW is now % bonus. This does create really really nice synergy with Darius. A few things though:
I. Cleaver almost must be stacked to be meaningful. It goes up to 30% reduced sure, but it takes 6 stacks to get there. In a 1v1, it's no big deal; but just like Darius passive, it's a little harder to distribute the shred, even though that's what Cleaver is about. Darius wants to selfish with passive stacks, but needs to distribute Cleaver stacks to help the team cut through tanks. See the problem?
II. Cleaver and the E are nice synergy for the rest of his kit, but do not synergize at all with his ult. Since his ult deals true damage, armor pen and armor shred are meaningless numbers and have no effect on its damage. That may seem obvious, but actually aknowledging that shows an interesting disconnect in how the pen and shred helps his Q, W, and basic attacks, but not the most recognizable part of his kit.
III. I may be wrong about this, Darius E armor pen is basically ignoring a person's armor, while cleaver is negating armor entirely from the champion, hence the term "reduces armor" vs. armor penetration. Darius doesn't ignore 55% of a target's armor; rather, he attacks once, basic pen % applied, the the shred happens. The pen is reduced in effectiveness based on total armor as more armor is shred. In a sense, you're negating less armor with the E's % pen because less armor is on the champion after the shred is on. The difference between the two methods of pen and shred (the 55% vs the normal method we have now) is about 10% total armor preserved with latter method. Having that synergy in front of you makes it seem less dumb. At least that's how it is for me.
The synergy is still nice, don't get me wrong, but it sounds less stupid, imo, when you look at it like this. It makes a little more sense to keep the pen where it is when you think through the flaws it has.
Personally, if I knew Darius had to be nerfed, I'd think one of these 3 things would be appropriate:
I. Decimate (Q) CD nerf
II. Crippling Strike (W) mana refund on kill lowered OR CD reduction removed
III. Crippling Strike (W) slow nerf
Tl;Dr I don't think Darius gets too many stats "for free", per say. I think he has to actually try and get the bonus AD from passive and it forces decision making in teamfights based on conflict with Cleaver's shred. The ultimate is easy to mess up on and harder to get resets in teamfights late game. As far as true damage ults go, he has to work for good damage while Cho'Gath doesn't. E and Cleaver synergy is nice, but doesn't help his ult and Cleaver stacks conflict with his passive stacks to a degree. 3 nerfs that I'd consider would be Q CD, W slow, and W mana refund or CD refund.
Sad Tyrant2 votesCan we talk about why Darius gets all these Guaranteed free stats while Skarner gets none except in certain areas of the map which make the player feel useless outside of them
darkdill1 votesWell, Skarner's being reclassified to no longer be a Juggernaut (and more of a tank), so that's one part of it.
Also, Skarner's capable of stuns and his ultimate can't miss (unlike Darius' E), though it can be blocked or CC-purged. He's also much faster than Darius, so he isn't allowed the same kind of damage power.
Sad Tyrant2 votesand this is completely unfair to those who built him as a damage dealer. The spires occupy so much of his power to play him is to disadvantage your own team. The spires are alienating and off putting. I think every time i see a new attack speed item or one of the old build items "this would be good on Skarner. oh wait, Spires" It would be much better if his power was on him instead of in those areas. in my own experience, Power Anchors like Shen's spirit blade and the spires make me feel completely useless on my team. Goodbye build divesity
Tychusfindlay9194 votes[{quoted}](name=Sad Tyrant,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bxkZZlIQ,comment-id=0007000200000001,timestamp=2016-06-07T05:48:10.934+0000)
Can we talk about why Darius gets all these Guaranteed free stats while Skarner gets none except in certain areas of the map which make the player feel useless outside of them
Noxian might is not guaranteed.
Sad Tyrant1 votesif you are fighting him for more than 10 seconds, yes, yes it is
Tychusfindlay9191 votes[{quoted}](name=Sad Tyrant,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bxkZZlIQ,comment-id=000700020000000100010000,timestamp=2016-06-08T02:05:53.626+0000)
if you are fighting him for more than 10 seconds, yes, yes it is
Darius's strength is in prolonged fights at melee range. If you play into his strength like a dingbat, then yeah I guess it is almost guaranteed.
Sad Tyrant1 voteswhat if you are playing Trundle, Garen or even Aatrox? any melee champ that doesn't have a low CD (uninterrupt-able) escape can't farm without dueling him and bleeding to death. and you are actually forced to have your jungler camp you so you can get gold.
Just so y'know I was making a point concerning Skarner. Darius gets all this power on him and it can't be controlled by the enemy while Skarner gets these shitty spires that force him to go to those spots on the map to have any real impact, and they can be easy nullified by his enemy. compared to Darius it is frankly unfair
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sad Tyrant,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bxkZZlIQ,comment-id=00070002000000010001000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-08T16:12:42.741+0000)
what if you are playing Trundle, Garen or even Aatrox? any melee champ that doesn't have a low CD (uninterrupt-able) escape can't farm without dueling him and bleeding to death. and you are actually forced to have your jungler camp you so you can get gold.
Just so y'know I was making a point concerning Skarner. Darius gets all this power on him and it can't be controlled by the enemy while Skarner gets these shitty spires that force him to go to those spots on the map to have any real impact, and they can be easy nullified by his enemy. compared to Darius it is frankly unfair
actually, you can beat darius on garen. or at least go even against him.
its all about managing your abilities. running into him with spin, when he uses his q to avoid that bleed stack, and immediately get out before he starts auto attacking you.
he will probably pull you back in and slow you. use q to cleanse the slow, and silence and get out.
rinse, repeat.
its probably not easy, since the darius will try to adapt too, but if youre not making any major mistake, youll probably be able to handle him.
the important part is, that while darius outtrades garen in lane, garen starts countering him by mid and lategame. so all you need to do is survive.
darius wants to chain dunk. when he does, he makes himself the villain and gets shredded by garen and shut down. ive played that matchup a lot. ive even started picking garen deliberately into him for the purpose of that midgame counter.
thematically its actually kind of cool how they counter each other during different stages of the game, instead of one of them always having the upper hand.
Sad Tyrant1 votesI've seen what you mean.
Syrai1 votesAh okay, thanks for the answer/clarity! :)
spombjop4 votes
NOTHING CAN STOP THE DUNKMASTER!
Critmaster Garen3 votesno, but other people who are building triforce are being played a lot.
i see jax repeatedly for example. and hes usually free food.
5 Stacks GG2 votesthey must pick him for the first time then because jax beats darius anyday
Icestar11861 votesNot early game he doesn't.
WeedTits2 votesSquishier top laners are more popular lately, Darius cleaves them. I think he has a good matchup against Ekko, if he ults before Ekko does. Mid laners aren't going as mobile as they used to.
5 Stacks GG1 votesya but squishy top laner have better mobility and cc trade Darius is suppose to lose vs riven, irelia, jax if they know how to play since they can easily trade him then disengage and dodge his q
stealthfox943 votesya but squishy top laner have better mobility and cc trade Darius is suppose to lose vs riven, irelia, jax if they know how to play since they can easily trade him then disengage and dodge his q
Huh? Darius beats both Riven and Irelia in lane. Jax can go either way.
Tychusfindlay9191 votesya but squishy top laner have better mobility and cc trade Darius is suppose to lose vs riven, irelia, jax if they know how to play since they can easily trade him then disengage and dodge his q
If darius is losing to irelia, then he is not playing right at all.
5 Stacks GG1 votesits the opposite actually
Tychusfindlay9191 votesits the opposite actually
According to "IreliaCarriesU" (masters level Irelia only main) it's not quite the opposite. After level 6, Irelia really shouldn't be able to do anything.
In my experience, that has held true. Granted, I'm in high gold as opposed to masters.
5 Stacks GG1 votesAccording to me the best Darius is NA master tier level Irelia has all the tools to beat darius if she play smart
Tychusfindlay9191 votesAccording to me the best Darius is NA master tier level Irelia has all the tools to beat darius if she play smart
Useless statement due to the "play smart."
Is darius only played by morons?
redniwediS2 votesNothing happened to Darius. This win rate change is directly tied to the play rate of other top laners.
Wînter Fox1 votesDarius has been disgusting ever since the rework. It was just a matter of time before people started to realize and start abusing it
Darfaller2 votesUm they did that like when he was reworked, and trhough the 4 patches where he periodically recieved nerfs until he reached a state of not op, but also not shit, which is a very balanced spot imo. A champion shouldnt be op, but also not shit, only op if you main them.