@Riot, these Shen changes were not the ones you were looking for, and here's why.

Melledoneus··34 votes·3,216 views

To hit Shen in pro play, you wanted to hit his shield strength and base it off ally missing HP. THAT is a great idea.

So you nerfed the shield values at higher HP and made it scale up. Precisely what needed to happen. But you forgot to buff up the shield values to give it actual value when you ult someone at 40% HP (the max scaling value). So we're left with Shen's previously mediocre shield except he can't get that small value at a good time, and ulting an ally that low on HP usually spells out doom for them, because the shield does not hold on for very long. So, by failing to buff the maximum values on the ult shield you did three things:

##1. Stand United is now being used primarily for engage, where you wanted to steer players away from that LCS strategy. Ulting an ally at near-full HP reaps more benefits than ulting them at lower HP now, since the shield values suck anyway and it's not worth timing the ult right to save an ally unless they're running away tagged with a lethal ignite. So his ultimate is almost purely offensive power now, which is the complete opposite of what we all wanted.

##2. Shen has become even more of a "win harder" champion. Shen before these changes was a very situational champion, as he relied heavily on the performance of his teammates to be effective. However, the defensive uses of Stand United allowed Shen to turn around fights and turn losing fights into winning ones. Now, as I mentioned in point 1, it is an offensive tool that only pushes a lead rather than turns around a situation where his teammates are behind. So Shen now primarily relies on his teammates to be winning and superior to accentuate their lead, rather than being a champion who can be an influencing factor in whether they win or not.

##3. Shen's focus has shifted from the map to his lane. The increased CD on his ult, as well as the issues brought up earlier, means that Shen players are actively being discouraged to look for fights to jump into since it's not worth the shield or its absurdly long cooldown. Paired up with the increased damage against champions (whoever thought this was a good idea really messed up, he's a lane bully now), Shen's kit now rewards him more for winning his lane than for helping his team. That is not what Shen is about.


I originally thought that the Shen changes would mean he would be significantly weaker in this patch, but I realized something much worse has happened: Riot has turned Shen from a supportive top laner to a tanky lane bully.

Please revert these changes save from the ult scaling and buff the shield values. I'd even gladly give up the E buffs if it means that my champion retains his identity. Thank you.

50 Comments

MrBuffington2 votes

I disagree; I think these are exactly the type of changes they're going for. Riot in general is trying to make champions less reliant on their ult (and as a result taking power from their ult and putting it elsewhere on their kit; see Sejuani). Shen's always been about his ult; it's an incredibly powerful spell, and costs a lot of his power budget. This is why Shen's often been a really strong pick in organized play, since having a Teleport is incredibly valuable for rotations.

Regarding the Q damage buff, if you recall, Shen's Q damage was nerfed in 6.18 (and I recall you complaining about that nerf, saying it gutted what little damage he had), so really this buff sort of puts him more in line with how he was on release. Actually he's probably doing more damage than he was on release, but his ult was nerfed; like I said before, Riot is actually trying to shift Shen away from focusing too much on his ult.

Responding to your first point, I think there's a shift in how we need to think about using Shen ult. Instead of timing the ult to get the maximum numeric shield value, we should be timing the ult to get the maximum value overall. Having a Shen ult in is a powerful deterrent, as I'm sure you've noticed (I know I have), so the decision is actually more complex and interesting where you need to ult at the correct moment to maximize your shield but also ensure that you reach your ally it time, meaning there are situations where you ult to save an ally, and you actually want to ult earlier/preemptively because you being there a second sooner is more valuable than a slight increase in shield health.

Regarding your second point, again this is in line with Riot's goals. This is meant to be a nerf to organized play and a buff to solo play; having Shen less dependent on his team doing well is part of the goal. Ditto with your third point.

Shen's still a team-oriented champion with a relatively weak laning phase, it's just that those strengths and weaknesses are more evened out now. Yes he's dealing more damage in lane, but he's no Darius or Pantheon. Yes his ult got nerfed, but it's still one of the most powerful spells in the game.

And before you ask, yes, Shen is my highest mastery champion. I don't have nearly as many mastery points as you, but that just means I'm not as locked into Shen's old balance state.

whathemath1 votes

this is meant to be a nerf to organized play and a buff to solo play

Adding 15-40 magic damage on Q but increasing the cooldown of ult by 20-40 seconds is not a buff to solo play. Just because his ult is better in organized play doesn't mean that it's not good in soloQ.

MrBuffington1 votes

It's a net buff; of course if you nerf anything on a champion, it'll be felt both in organized play and in soloQ; it's the same iteration of the champion afterall. What I'm saying is that the ult nerfs hit organized play harder than it hits soloQ, and the buffs to his Q means that he's less dependent on his team doing well, and helps soloQ more than his ult nerf hurts him in soloQ. If you look at Riot's comments and statistics, Shen in organized play is more likely to use his ult off cooldown; teams make plays around Shen's ult cooldown, where in soloQ it's more common to use his ult reactively to save someone.

I know this happens in my games all the time; I wait for my ult cooldown and look to make a play, but nothing's really going on with my teammates (even if I ping that I can come bot and that my ult is off cooldown), so I end up sitting on my ult for another 20-40+ seconds anyways. Same thing with the shield, I'm usually using my ult to save people/turn a fight, rather than dive a turret (It's pretty difficult to organize a dive in soloQ in general, let alone across the map)

whathemath1 votes

I don't think I agree that it's a net buff, but you are right that it is a much bigger nerf to organized play. Anecdotally I can agree that sometimes I just sit on my ult for a while because there's no one to save.

However, there is one (common) situation in soloQ where you do want to use your ult as soon as it comes off cooldown: when your team is behind. It feels really bad when you need to save someone but there's still 20s of cooldown left on your ult.

On top of that, OP is right about the shield value changes: they actually discourage reactive ultimates because the shield values aren't buffed (compared to pre 7.8) when allies are low. In most cases, it's still more effective to ult early and arrive sooner than it is to wait until they are low and then try to save them with a mediocre shield (at least at level 6 it feels really small).

I think what riot should have done is leave the cooldown alone and buff the shield values significantly, but make it so shen can only ult champs who are below 50% HP. That would be a huge nerf to the engage ults in competitive but would affect soloQ saves very little.

MrBuffington1 votes

I agree that the lvl 6 shield is really lackluster, which is probably why that value was buffed compared to the old lvl 6 ult, where the rest stayed the same (or even nerfed slightly). As I said before, he's probably doing more damage than he was when he was first reworked, especially in lane, so the numbers might need some fine tuning, but I think the direction of the changes is the direction Riot wants to push Shen. Your suggestion about ulting half-health allies seems really extreme and would really pidgeonhole him a bit too much imo.

I don't think the shield nerf really discourages reactive ults. Think of it this way; diving using Shen ult is more risky now since the shield values are nerfed, so most of the time you're going to be using your ult defensively to save an ally rather than to dive. Given that you're using your ult defensively, it's just about how you maximize the effectiveness of that ult, not about trying to maximize a particular shield value. Basically, because you're not using your ult offensively, you're defaulting to use your ult defensively (what else are you going to do with it). I agree the current shield values may discourage ulting in late in certain situations, but that's a matter of at what point you ult, not a matter of in what situation you ult.

whathemath1 votes

I can see your point, at least in how it discourages dives. However, that still doesn't address my other point: the nerf to the ult cooldown means that Shen has fewer opportunities to turn fights around, which hurts a lot when your team is losing. You're right about how you sometimes sit on ult when there's no plays to make, but often that's the case when your team is already controlling the map. When you're behind you're looking to turn every fight, and that's when you feel the cooldown nerfs.

I think a lot of Shen players pick him because they want to be able to influence the map, unlike most other toplaners. You're right that riot is trying to push Shen away from that identity and focusing more on his lane presence. However, if that's what riot's aiming for they should make Shen's laning more interesting. Shen is still a very binary champ in lane phase: you taunt, you q, you w, you auto 3 times, then you back out. Wait for cooldowns then repeat. The only scenario that I feel like I've outplayed my opponent is when I pull off a really good taunt-flash.

MrBuffington1 votes

I think Riot has mentioned they want to take another look at Shen, since they said the spirit blade mechanic didn't quite hit the mark (although I do enjoy it; Orianna is my 2nd or 3rd highest mastery champion), but these changes are meant to be something in the meantime. This game is iterative, it's a constant work in progress. Although there's only so much Riot can and wants to change at any particular time, to assume that anything in the game is going to be that way forever is pretty naive (not speaking to you, just the general sentiment of Boards).

Regarding Shen outplays, he really has interesting lane micro if you really breakdown how you use your spirit blade. Maybe just because I'm also an Orianna player, but I feel like no other Shen player I talk to really appreciates all the things you can do with your spirit blade, especially since your opponent generally doesn't know what you can do with your spirit blade. Just because he doesn't have a lot of flashy skillshots and dashes doesn't mean he's a simple or uninteresting champion. His mastery curve is less about raw mechanics and more about your mental game, how you play the lane and position yourself, and so on. Because of that, there are always new situations you find yourself in and needing to adapt to, not just spamming a champion to learn their mechanics.

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

If Riot wanted to make it so Shen's ult was used defensively, instead of offensively, as it is is pro-play, why not try something like this:

R: Stand United CD: 180/160/120

Shen selects an ally champion, channeling for 3 seconds. Upon completing the channel, Shen and his Spirit Blade blink to the target ally's location. If the ally was below 35/40/45% health, indicated by some marker preferably, when Shen began the channel, they are shielded for 5 seconds, for 250/550/850 + (135% AP).

And A Real Hiero3 votes

It could have a 1000% ap scaling and I'd still not build a single ap item.

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bel Boz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=buh1ZsAL,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-04-20T18:45:58.722+0000)

It could have a 1000% ap scaling and I'd still not build a single ap item.

What about item 3115 for that onhit mid shen

And A Real Hiero2 votes

As Shen I'm usually starving for gold until my second item. Can't afford that shit.

Melledoneus3 votes

You don't build Nashor's on Shen mid. It gives nothing.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

You don't build Nashor's on Shen mid. It gives nothing.

But you built it...

wait you were top that game.

Melledoneus3 votes

Nope, I was mid. I realized Wit's End is a far superior on-hit magic item, so I replaced Nashor's.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

Nope, I was mid. I realized Wit's End is a far superior on-hit magic item, so I replaced Nashor's.

Really? I would think the 20% CDR is nice since you have a giant ult CD.

Melledoneus3 votes

The 20% CDR is not worth the item.

Janna mìd1 votes

I love Wit's End on shen

xWaters1 votes

Another Shen essay

And A Real Hiero3 votes

Barely a page long though, if it was a essay. He'd get a D. Hue.

Melledoneus29 votes

Better than those posts with one sentence long explanations of the title. Would you have preferred, "Y'all fucked up" as the entire body?

xWaters1 votes

{quoted}

Better than those posts with one sentence long explanations of the title. Would you have preferred, "Y'all fucked up?" as the entire body.

Yeah but doesn't it exhaust you with other schoolwork, sports and other things? I'd understand if riot listens and acknowledges what you say but...

Melledoneus12 votes

To be honest I've written so many essays in my lifetime they're like drinking water to me.

Tell me to write a 10 page paper on paint drying and I will manage to find a way to do it.

xXRaichopXx2 votes

Write an essay on why Thresh is so cool and link it to me :D

Melledoneus2 votes

Satirical or more serious? I'll post it on the Boards.

xXRaichopXx1 votes

SERIOUSLY I LIKE THRESH

Also tell me where I can find it when you finish

Big Lincoln1 votes

post an essay on why mage mains are brainlets

TyrekGoldenspear8 votes

Post an essay on why Big Lincoln would be a swell guy if he left mages alone.

Big Lincoln1 votes

fuck mages

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

Come on now, I know you want to be swell.

Bottom Laner3 votes

Ahri Lux Morgana Syndra Zyra ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) I agree

Melledoneus3 votes

Dafuq is a brainlet?

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Retard I assume

Melledoneus2 votes

The use of that word irks me a little.

Neamean1 votes

Write an essay on why we need an Iroh in league

http://i.imgur.com/CjUK3Um.gif

And if you some how connect him to Targon I sacrifice lamb.

kasfas1 votes

Iroh is probably one of the top 3 characters in any show I've ever seen, and in the top 5 of all characters in media.

He is honestly just so great.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Dewit.

kasfas1 votes

Can you write me a 3 page essay on nothing?

Melledoneus1 votes

Do you mean literally nothing or just random nonsense?

kasfas1 votes

So, I'm reading a book called "Waiting for Godot" and nothing happens in the book, so that's what I meant by nothing.

I didn't expect you to really extrapolate that, but it was mostly a joke for myself. I figure it's better to at least let you know what I meant.

I'm a weird person sometimes.

...

: )

Oelyk1 votes

500 words, "Why League Needs More Lizards."

And A Real Hiero1 votes

I just beat a Shen in lane as tank Kog lol, he did proceed to own my team and me after we fed him :D

starelementpoke1 votes

Huh. You know what, just realized that. I was just happy that I misunderstood what they ment about taking away the bonus damage on his Q the the minions, but I guess they did make him more of a lane bully with it.

Zach Sandwhich1 votes

Yeah I feel like the ult change was a bit weird. If your going to Nerf the Shield when they have max health can we at least get a buff on the Shield when we actually use it for it's intended purpose of saving people? The other changes to his Q I like however, as they make Sunfire/Titanic more important for Shen to allow him to splitpush, which is really good right now for competitive as he can just shove lane then TP into fight. The change makes his early shoving really bad without Tiamat/Sunfire, which IMO is a fair trade for the damage we got. Just

Starboyˇ1 votes

I'd be fine with the changes if his q damage went up per level I really don't care about anything else

crippler381 votes

Write an essay explaining that you and MM are different people since you both seem to be clones about two things.

Your memes tend to have a theme (metal, jojo) and your other posts tend to be about your mains (morde, shen)

This leads me to believe from the little bit that I know of you, that you two are actually doppelgangers who are essentially the same kind of personality types but with slightly different tastes thanks to your upbringings.

Melledoneus1 votes

Maybe I should show MM that episode of Jojo with Akira the electric guitarist...

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

If Shen is supposed to be "shit in lane, great on the map" champion, he shouldn't have a taunt that prevents you from actually using his weak laning phase against him.

Melledoneus5 votes

Agreed, Shen's dash shouldn't affect champions.

FFS man he's a tank with one CC.

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

The point is not that he shouldn't be able to crowd control champions.

The point is, it's a taunt, so it draws tower aggro on you.

Which means you can't realistically pressure his tower as long as he is in lane. And pushing him out of lane takes hella long time, as being a tank he has powerful defense mechanisms, he has an escape AND he uses energy meaning he is never forced to base by lack of resource.

This all combined means that Shen's weak laning is basically meaningless - he won't win lane, but he won't really be punished either.

It would be much different if Shadow Dash just stunned.

Melledoneus2 votes

Many of his weaknesses are well pronounced, and refute most of his points. Let's start.

The point is, it's a taunt, so it draws tower aggro on you.

This is literally his biggest strength in lane. However, if you poke and get him low, you have all the tower pressure you could ask for.

And pushing him out of lane takes hella long time, as being a tank he has powerful defense mechanisms, he has an escape AND he uses energy meaning he is never forced to base by lack of resource.

Shen has among the lowest base stats of any tank, second only to Sion who infinitely stacks HP. He has lower base stats than some AD assassins like Zed, so killing him is far easier than you think. His shield is also garbage early on, and to make him fall behind all you need to do is either freeze the lane at your turret or slow push to make him miss his farm. His 'escape' is an 18 second cooldown and 3/8 of his entire energy pool. It's also his only engage and, even after the hitbox buffs, easy to sidestep. His energy means that if he doesn't hit stuff and runs ooe, he has to wait up to 40 seconds to get it back. Also energy limits his itemization, otherwise he would buy Sheen items and Frozen Heart, then start dominating with reckless abandon due to the rapid-fire nature of his Q.

This all combined means that Shen's weak laning is basically meaningless - he won't win lane, but he won't really be punished either.

Wrong. There are so many ways to punish Shen. He's melee, so hit him when he goes to CS. He also has to use his Q through you to deal meaningful damage to you, so push the wave and watch him struggle. He also scales less hard on farm than most champions, so he needs to be ahead to make an impact. And then he literally leaves his lane at 6 so you can take that turret for free if you so please.

It would be much different if Shadow Dash just stunned.

Since taunt is worth much more than a stun, you'd have to balance it, and buff the duration from 1.25 seconds to a whopping ~3.5. So you want a free Ekko W proc on-demand? Good luck with that.

I appreciate the try, but you clearly need to reserve your judgments about Shen before you actually play him.

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