So... if Lee is so freelo, why not become Challenger with him???

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Why not? If they were actually overpowered, you'd think that a lot more people would play or ban him and climb?

I mean... he is by far the most played jungler in the game, with twice the playrate of the second most played jungler, Kha'Zix. His ban rate is relatively high, and his win rate is actually really high for the highest skill cap champion in the game.

He has the highest pick rate in the game at 34.45%, the next most popular is khazix at 17.55%. so yeah, a lot more people DO play him over every other jungler

I'm not saying anything about Lee in particular, I'm just saying that's not an argument.

Say someone complains about Riven or Draven being overpowered. What does saying "If they're so overpowered why don't you just play them?" actually accomplish? Its implying one of two things: A) That the champion is hard to play (which isn't really an excuse for excess power) or B) That the player only thinks that champion is overpowered because they are bad or have never played the champion, in which case you should simply tell them that because its more direct and not as unbearably snarky.

I don't have a strong opinion on Lee Sin right now, I just needed to put this out there.

I literally have no idea how you got that out of what I said

If anything, what I said supports the idea that those champions are too strong, by implying that their supposed high skill floors aren't justifications for excess power

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What does that have to do with this?

Uhm because you need to have gameknowledge and mapawareness to climb duuuh. Wtf how is that hard to understand...couldnt have made it more clear imo

Because bad lee players still win more games than good fiddle players for example. It might just be the result of the new jungle changes being very acomodating for lee but even then, he shouldn't be having a high winrate with the highest pickrate(34,4%. He's in more than one out of three games, and we have almost 50 jungle champions).

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So then why isn't that just acceptable as getting better at a champion? Honest question. I want a discussion. Bad Lee players are bad with him. Good Lee players are good with him. So why are people making such a fuss?

because good lee players are doing way too much with him that no other champion can match

You get zed and talon. Two similar champions. AD assassins. What if Zed did everything talon did, but more, and better?

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Well, Diamond level players say that champion choice really doesn't matter below diamond, and possibly up to Diamond 1.

Outside of that, the OP is contesting the notion that Lee Sin is broken at all, or at least that that seems to be the common wisdom among many on the boards.

I certainly don't think he is, and I never enjoyed playing him. He's just the quintessential fighter in many ways with decent mobility.m

All the diamond players say that. And yet there's something that's always noticed every single time.

Look at the winrates of those players.

There's like 1-2 challenger tryndamere players, and it took them thousands upon thousands of queues to get there, and they still only have a 49-50% winrate. Many other players can't even get out of plat 2 as Trynd, and there's only one viable Trynd strategy. Mindlessly shove the lane and hope you win. There's no skill or anything involved. It's just mindlessly shove.

The only time I see the very vacant Urgot one tricks they're around D2 at best and the only time they ever get that high is when the champion actually has a favorable meta. Otherwise they rot in plat/low diamond.

All of those extremely weak champions typically rot in low diamond, no matter whose playing them.

And in challenger, unless you're already way up in challenger playing a weak champion will get you demoted out of challenger fast. And climbing with a weak champion in diamond will net you an extremely poor winrate that is all for intents and purposes wasting time.

For ex:

I made it to around D3 as Kindred in a very bad meta while she's weak af. But I lost every single game I was up against Gragas/ Zac and broke even on Graves games, but only because I am often a much much better jungler than the plat 5 skill level Graves player abusing freelo. But often times he can be absolutely terrible and win anyways becausehis champ was brain damage proof.

I very very very very easily could have hit d2-1 if I put all of my effort on Graves/Zac/Gragas. Instead I sit tilted in D5 playing at 4 am watching my challenger players intentionally run down mid to die because I picked a terrible champ I.E Kindred.