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Why not bring the Black Market books?

L0ve Is Blue··73 votes·3,169 views

Let's face it: Mages have limited build paths even if they had a patch about changing that. The fact is, mages want to get CDR but the only ways to get some is item 3165 item 3174 or you can give up on some AP and magic pen to get item 3092 or item 3158 .

And i think there is a simple solution rito isn't even looking at.

Rite of Ruin 3000 Gold Cooldown reduction: +20% Ability power: +100 Mana regen: +100% Passive UNIQUE – RAZING: Gains charges upon moving or killing enemies, up to 300 charges. Attacking structures expends 50 charges to deal 100 (+15% AP) bonus true damage.

Netherstride Grimoire 3000 Gold Cooldown reduction: +20% Ability power: +100 Mana regen: +100% Passive UNIQUE – MALICE: Gain 20% movement speed for 2 seconds whenever you deal ability damage.

Pox Arcana 3000 Gold Cooldown reduction: +20% Ability power: +100 Mana regen: +100% Passive UNIQUE – POX: Applies a stack of Pox for 10 seconds whenever you deal ability damage, stacking up to 5 times. Active UNIQUE – DISEASE HARVEST: Deals 100 magic damage plus 20 (+5% AP) per stack of Pox (maximum of 200 (+25% AP)) to all nearby enemies affected by Pox, and restores 5% of your maximum mana for every Pox stack harvested. 60 second cooldown.

Having some 100 AP Items that actualy gives you CDR and nice passives is just what we need. PLZ.

50 Comments

TTUPhoenix19 votes

I don't think more 20% CDR items is necessarily the best thing, especially since that means mages only ever really have 0%, 20%, or 40% CDR. I think what mages need are some more 10% CDR items, allowing mages to have a more finely tuned control over their CDR. Do you really want 40% CDR? You can have that. If you want a little more than 20%, or even just a little? You can do that too.

D rok5 votes

Exactly right. People just want to cap CDR because they know it's good to have capped. You should know the tradeoff you're making by giving up 10% CDR for a chunk of MR or AP or whatever at a given point in the game. Doing this provides both a path to achieving long term goals and short term goals for itemization.

IS1E531E3F9641932 votes

I think people compare it to ADC and that's why they want it, essence reaver more so, tons of ad, some nice crit chance, mana gain, and then 30% CDR, honestly it's weird how adc's have a easier and better time getting 40% CDR then mages do

D rok3 votes

That's true, but honestly, adc's don't tend to benefit from cdr as much as mages do. Don't get me wrong, it's still GOOD on ADCs, and there are some exceptions, but 40% CDR on Orianna, or Annie, or Lux is a much bigger deal than it is on an most ADCs.

doombotMECHA1 votes

which is why it is dumb that they should be able to spec for it. also some adcs (corki, draven) are VERY cooldown-reliant

Chuck Charles2 votes

{quoted}

I don't think more 20% CDR items is necessarily the best thing, especially since that means mages only ever really have 0%, 20%, or 40% CDR. I think what mages need are some more 10% CDR items, allowing mages to have a more finely tuned control over their CDR. Do you really want 40% CDR? You can have that. If you want a little more than 20%, or even just a little? You can do that too.

this. we need a high AP, 10% CDR item. often times I want to choose to go sorc boots and get my 10% cdr elsewhere, but I can't. so I run Ionians. I personally would like to see the return of DFG in a reworked state. obviously old DFG was cancerous, but I would like to see it amplify damage vs higher health targets similar to how the new giant slayer works. so mages have a way of helping with tanks. often times when I play vs a tank I feel useless against the tank and that is an issue. you should feel its hard to get through a tank, but if the enemy team has tanks you cant just hope and pray your adc knows how to position well.

but ON topic sorry, I think 10% cdr on a high AP item is necessary regardless of how they add it in.

kile1473 votes

Way too much AP, CDR, and mana regen. At least one of those values needs lowered on all of these items. They need more differentiation aside from their passives, right now there is literally no reason to buy Morellos over any of these.

I would recommend changing rite to be better for AP auto attack users, would make the most sense with the passive. Maybe just have it be 80 AP, 50% regen, no CDR.

For selfish reasons I want Netherstride to have 10% CDR, 50% regen, 20 MPen, and like 40 AP.

Finally Pox should just have the Regen removed and it would be fine.

mike in the box8 votes

"Right now there is literally no reason to buy Morellos over any of these."

Morellos applies grievous wounds so vs a Mundo i would take it over any of the black market books.

I would like Morellos to be pused into more of a niched pick and add something more neutral for a mage looking for crd / mana

kile1471 votes

Vs a Mundo your adc should buy executioner, and you should maybe get Morellos if he's being really problematic. Morellos GW application is so much weaker than the executioners version that I've seen AP champs buy executioners instead. They need to buff that passive before it can be a niche buy for that anymore.

If you are a Mage and you need good mana regen and CDR you can choose between Morellos and Grail. These items should be chosen when you need something else, like good damage with a little cdr. Or maybe you want good regen, a little damage and cdr (FQC). Or decent damage with decent regen (archangels, my version of Rite). Or good damage with good cdr (My version of Pox).

It Hertz When IP3 votes

The ADC can't always be there though. Specially if it's the laning phase and you're facing Vlad or Swain.

kile1471 votes

True, and I usually get Morellos in those cases, but these other items could very well outclass Morellos even in those cases. As suggested Pox offers the same stats as Morellos with 20 more AP and could add an extra 300+25%AP damage to your burst pattern, for only 500 more gold. It will also be far more useful against everyone else in the game.

Swain at lvl 11 : 1200 health base + RoA =~ 2000 Max Health 2000*.4=800 Health for Morellos GW to take effect At 800 health the extra 325 damage burst from Pox will probably work just about as well to take him down as cutting his healing 40%, not to mention that it would also give you better mana sustain from the passive.

I am not arguing that Morellos is a bad item (though the passive could use a buff), what I'm saying is that with these items in the game it would be outclassed in almost every situation short of the enemy team being composed of Swain, Vlad, Mundo, and Aatrox.

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

They need nerfs. BMB items were super OP, so those items need nerfs pretty bad.

Otherwise, I guess they're okay? I mean, you could heavily edit one of them and make a decent 3rd mage rush item. This will probably be fixed whenever the mage rework happens.

Ligerzz3 votes

But we all know we want Trickster's Glass back, because baiting with that item is funny asf.

CubedJustice1 votes

One of the dirtiest things I've ever done was smurf on a pre-30 account, play Kat, and get an early Trickster's. I needed to wash my hands afterwards.

jetgumpop2 votes

I think that should be added but with a little less ap and a less op effect because if that is the case looks out for the a mages because we would all be srcewed but I still agree with part of those items.

Llanite2 votes

Because long-ranged mages do not have to invest into defense and should not have high gold-efficiency.

Any combo of AP+CDR+Offensive effect will have horribly cost-efficiency, that's how Riot decides to balance the game.

Koechophe1 votes

But it's totally fine for long range ADCs to have high gold-efficiency? I But it's totally fine for LOW range mages to have sucky gold-efficiency?

If long ranged mages are overpowered, nerf them, don't slaughter mage itemization all together.

CubedJustice1 votes

Keep in mind, long range mages are specifically not overpowered at all.Ziggs Xerath Velkoz Nidalee The only arguably overpowered one of the set is Nidalee, and I would argue she's just not fun to face. The others are either the epitome of balanced, or somewhat under average.

Llanite1 votes

Fun fact, Nid is the only long-ranged mage that has counterplay, a skilled tank can block all her spears. Not the case with Xerath, Zigg, Anvia, Brand or Vel.

Xilixer2 votes

vel'koz has pretty huge counterplay. if you have mobility and can dodge and get in he is literally dead. yasuo, fizz and any teleporting character will have a field day with vel.

and let me tell you....it isnt very fun. D:

Llanite1 votes

No idea about other 'teleporting charater', but as Fizz and Yasou, Vel Q has higher range than their Q/E and should have no problem kiting, if he's good.

Xilixer1 votes

only problem is maintaining the distance from their teleporting or closing in abilities.

Llanite1 votes

And all your 4 abilities have greater range, the only problem is knowing how to kite and not missing all your stuff.

IS1E531E3F9641932 votes

not always the case as I remember her in pro play before all the nerfs nuking enemies because unless you're playing ARAM she can throw spears from more then 1 direction

Llanite1 votes

Unless she does not plan to follow up w/ pounce, spear through walls is not an option.

IS1E531E3F9641931 votes

why wouldn't it be an option? pre nerfs if she hit you with a spear she would deal 80% of your health in damage to squishies, even tanks couldn't tank it

the only time old nidalee used pounce was to run away

Llanite1 votes

And it was like...one year and a half since the nerf? Current patch the spear does as much dmg as a single Annie Q if she does not follow up.

IS1E531E3F9641931 votes

the argument was nidalee had sufficient counterplay since tanks could block her spears, however if that was truly the case her Q wouldn't have gotten nerfed in the past.

though it is indeed true she can't nuke enemies with Q anymore unless very fed

Llanite2 votes

Adc does not shoot things from 1 screen away then DPS dramatically reduces if one charges in and force them to moonwalk. Neither applies for long-ranged mages. Once they know what they're doing, there is virtually nothing you can do. Again, nothing to do with balance, just lack of meaningful counterplay.

Short-ranged mages don't aim for 40% cdr, those who do are mostly sem-tanky and can buy gold-efficient frozen heart or visage.

JMoormann1 votes

I completely disagree with the reason why they are unwilling to do it, which is that "mages should not easily get 40% CDR". I agree that they should not easily get it, but currently it is not even possible to do it at all, unless you make heavy sacrifices. Every champion should have access to a 40% CDR build when he needs it, without losing too much.

Let's see all completed AP + CDR items:

item 3504: Unless you are playing Sona mid or something like that you probably won't buy this item 3174: Good if you need massive mana regen like Ziggs, but not so much if you don't need it, especially against an AD mid item 3060: Also a support item. AP is low and lacks other useful stats for mages item 1402: Obviously only for junglers, and low AP and scaling item 3092 Support item. Currently being used mid, but will be nerfed, and has low AP item 3100: A good item for champs like TwistedFate who AA during their combo's, not so much for the ones who want to execute their combo as fast as possible. item 3165: Grievous Wounds has lost a lot of it's use, and many champs don't need the mana regen. That leaves 80 AP and 20% CDR for the increased cost. It's decent, but it's not optimal for most mages. item 3115: There are basically only 2 champs who really benefit from AP+AS: Azir or Kayle. Others can't use it at all. item 3152: If you are Vladimir, you buy this. Else you don't. I hope they can make spell vamp for mages what life steal for ADCs is. item 3050 Another support item. It might work on supportive mids like Lulu when paired with a crit-scaling hypercarry, but you probably won't buy it on damage focused mages.

Other CDR options are:

Ionians. Currently strong, but will probably be nerfed and it limits your boot options. CDR Runes. Viable, but you need to do it before the game. I can't decide "I'm behind, I will go for more CDR for additional utility" during the game. Tank items. You must be really desperate to build those on a mage

My point? Mages shouldn't automatically get 40% CDR, but currently it's impossible to get it without sacrificing a huge amount of combat stats.

EDIT: Nashor's is indeed good for more champs, like Diana and Teemo, so those have viable options when paired with Lich Bane which works on many of those champs. The majority of mid mages can't get it though.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

I've built Nashor's on Kennen before, as his second passive benefits from AS and manaless champs don't have many other CDR options.

Mistress Madoka1 votes

{quoted}

item 3115: There are basically only 2 champs who really benefit from AP+AS: Azir or Kayle. Others can't use it at all.

Teemo Kennen

Snake Town1 votes

{quoted}

item 3115: There are basically only 2 champs who really benefit from AP+AS: Azir or Kayle. Others can't use it at all.

Clearly you've never played item 3115 Nautilus item 3931

CubedJustice1 votes

Well, that's not fair to say about Nashor's. Fizz Corki Evelynn TwistedFate LuluEkko All these lovely guys get use from the stats.

HadesBlades1 votes

Diana........ loves nashors..... ;-;Diana

Nekusen1 votes

the problem with CDR items for mages is they force you to buy Mana Regen, these books do the same, what we need it CDR items that don't force you to buy mana regen.

Igotlazy1 votes

I definitely wouldn't mind some new items for Mages. They really only have a handful of stuff to choose from. The Black Market Brawlers items are a good start but they're going to obviously need to be re-tuned. Netherstride was hilariously good on skirmishing Mages like Ekko

ChaosThief1 votes

Ekko + Netherstride + cunning speed boost = hilariously fast ekko

CubedJustice1 votes

Also,Singed

The Yetii Rider1 votes

100 true damage on towers with 6 attacks in a row and no cooldown? No thank you, we don't need shoving to be an even better strategy, I'm perfectly happy NOT having a Ziggs/Xerath/Lux meta.

Mage items are in a bad spot. Oh well. Mages are getting a full update next year, looking at their kits and not their items. If their kits have costs and CDR adjusted around their current itemization they'll be in a better spot.

CubedJustice1 votes

Weren't those items pretty imbalanced? I remember they were obscene on a few champions and useless on more.

FistOfSharkiesha1 votes

We don't need any more mana regen options. We need CDR without mana regen tacked on. Morello and Athene's are both great on anyone who wants mana regen and cdr.

IS1E531E3F9641933 votes

actually prefer they wouldn't, manaless champions already have a advantage by not having to worry about their resource

FistOfSharkiesha1 votes

I didn't say anything about manaless champions. Right now tear of the goddess could be optimal on so many mages with low cooldowns who can easily charge it such as Orianna, but they want CDR more than they want mana and AP.

Spoofghoul1 votes

These items would completely banish morello's and athenes in most of the games. unless you are facing mundo or vlad or you are swain and go oom everytime after pressing r

Wayward Killjoy1 votes

Itd be a better idea to break down cdr into 5 and 10% and spread it out among the existing ap items, so 2-3 items won't get you 40%cdr, and have it be something only feasible late game o3o with the upcoming mage rework they're going to get a lot of new power so a pre-emptive strike would be to balance their average powerspikes with other classes.

BottleCapster1 votes

I'm just sitting here getting ready to never play my beloved mages through the rest of the season thanks to the imminent rise of AD assassins, while we only have one armor option that takes a whopping 3500g just to be effective.......

Seriously can mages get another defensive item? So...y'know....Zhonya's isn't our only saving grace against assassins?

LatetotheRace1 votes

I want puppeteer more than anything mate.

Worthless Tripod1 votes

Logged In just to up vote this thread. I Loved Black Market Brawlers, and Netherstride Grimoire was a godsend which I continue to remember fondly. It's passive... I want Luden's to have the Malice passive sooooo bad. Get rid of the flat percent move speed buff, and give it Malice. Or you could give me the book too. It would become my rush item, even though it costs so much more than athenes or morello.

SouL1ess1 votes

Having some 100 AP Items that actualy gives you CDR and nice passives is just what we need. PLZ.

Yeah I agree, AP do need some more overpowered items after the first round of AP item nerfs.

(Item needs re-balancing to re-introduce in SR)

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