I'm fine with Atmas, but Shojin's Spear should NOT get released

Malicious Metal·May 24, 2018·66 votes·17,773 views

I don't really have a class of champion to main, with Morde being this weird mix of Fighter and Mage, but I've always enjoyed playing Bruisers. Hell, Urgot is by far one of my favorite champions to play anyways.

So I'm pretty happy Riot decided to give fighters new toys to play with.

But that Spear. Oh boy, do I really need to explain WHY I think it's a bad idea? That item will singlehandedly break certain champions and will always be problematic.

Flat damage reduction based on an offensive stat is really, really problematic and some champions whose only counterplay was to blow 'em up before they just roflstomp you will get out of line really easily with that Spear.

Fighters don't need more durability, they need reliability. This item is not the thing they need, it'll just lead to some very unfun patches until the champions and of course, the item, get nerfed into the ground.

120 Comments

RalanrMay 24, 201832 votes

Yeah I’m not looking forward to assassins and fighters using spear and getting super durable even for short periods of time. It feels more like a “win more, win harder” item than anything.

JabaTheHatMay 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yeah I’m not looking forward to assassins and fighters using spear and getting super durable even for short periods of time. It feels more like a “win more, win harder” item than anything.

Are you sure this is what you meant? "Win more, win harder" usually refer to BAD items that don't make the difference in even games, and you only buy them to win more.

RalanrMay 24, 20184 votes

I guess I more meant, “Win Harder” as an item that makes snowballing much too dangerous.

InfernapeMay 24, 201822 votes

it'll just lead to some very unfun patches until the champions and of course, the item, get nerfed into the ground.

That's optimistic. Knowing Riot they'd nerf the champions instead of the item and when they finally realise it was the item that was the problem, they'd nerf the item and not bother buffing the champions they nerfed. They'd Sejuani them.

ZalinthelMay 24, 20189 votes

It's really not that broken. I don't know what the fuss is all about.

*It works pre-mitigation, so it has anti-synergy with all other kinds of damage reduction

*It only works at 30% versus dots or multi-tick abilities, so no abuse there

*You need to build a fairly substantial amount of AD to get any real mileage, which will already make you squishier

*It's fairly meh in duels, which is where most of the champions that would want it usually shine

*Its second passive is windowed with a sometimes risky trigger.

Not seeing a problem.

Kitten of EvilMay 24, 20185 votes

*It only works at 30% versus dots or multi-tick abilities, so no abuse there

Unless I'm gravely misunderstanding how the item works, the damage reduction is applied to each tick of damage at 30% effect. This means that it will prevent MORE damage against any DoT with more than 3 ticks of damage (which is most of them).

For example, Cass's max-level Q does 255+70% AP damage over 3 seconds. It ticks damage seven times (just checked in practice mode), so each tick is 36.4+10% AP.

At just 100 bonus AD, Spear of Shojin gives 15+10=25 damage reduction. Against DoTs, that's 30% or 7.5 per tick. 7.5 reduction x 7 ticks of damage = 52.5 total reduction over 3 seconds. And Cass has just lost 20% of her base damage.

Now, stack that with an Adaptive Helm and you may as well remove DoT champions from the game. Not that anyone would be too sad to see Teemo go.

ZalinthelMay 24, 20182 votes

The champions that would build the Spear probably want nothing to do with Adaptive, plus the helm would work after the Spear, so you're losing value, not even considering that the Spear futher anti-synergizes with MR.

And in your example, virtually any source of MR, such as a Hexdrinker, would help you survive more, especially since you've only calculated for the vase damage on a spell with fairly hefty scaling.

Kitten of EvilMay 25, 20182 votes

That's true, the more AP scaling you have the less effect its flat reduction has.

But it still is true that 30% effect is no penalty at all--in fact, if your DoT ticks more than 3 times, the item is actually stronger against you than anyone else.

And in games where the main enemy AP carry is a Brand, Teemo, or Cass, I could totally see an Irelia, Illaoi, or Darius picking up both Spear and Adaptive Helm to completely nullify that champion.

VekknaMay 24, 20185 votes

*You need to build a fairly substantial amount of AD to get any real mileage, which will already make you squishier

Umm...if Yasuo builds PD, IE, Mallet, Sterak's, and Spear, he's sitting at 3400 hp with a shield proc for 1012. With 341 AP (227 bonus), 100% crit, and 36% true damage with IE + Conq. His on-hit damage reduction from spear is 38, tripled to 113 during the proc. Plus bone plating, passive shield, and windwall.

I don't know where you've been, but 8.11 is putting the last nail in the coffin of this idea that ADs are squishy if they build damage. Yi, Trynd, and Jax will be even worse.

ZalinthelMay 24, 20181 votes

You mean a champion that spends 9000 gold in health items and another almost 3k on one with single target damage reduction gets to be somewhat durable? GASP say it ain't so!

The Spear wouldn't even be pulling a lot of the weight at that point, it'd just be supplementary. Nothing about that scenario is stupid because of the Spear, namely Conqueror Yasuo having high target agnostic true damage.

VekknaMay 25, 20181 votes

What you call "9000 gold in health items" also comes with 147 AD. And that "3k on one with single target damage reduction" gives him 60% crit by itself.

RainXBladeMay 25, 20181 votes

But that leaves his build w/o any lifesteal, which is effectively stronger on Yasuo than flat HP since most of his damage comes from his autos and that HP works better with resistances. In the build you suggested, the Yasuo doesn't have any armor nor MR, leaving his HP easy to shred with something like Ruined King or Vayne.

Then again, Spear of Shojin is ludicrously strong on fighters in general because of the flat dmg reduction alone.

VekknaMay 25, 20181 votes

But just FYI, that Sterak's shield - without factoring resists - is worth the healing that Yasuo would get from 20% lifesteal after dealing 5060 physical damage from autos.

And remember, 36% of his damage is true damage that doesn't heal from lifesteal. He would have to deal 7906 damage from autos only before he would heal for the shield amount.

Want some resists? Build Atma's instead of Spear. 25 AD + 16 AD per second, capped at 105 AD.

Daddy AntsMay 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

But just FYI, that Sterak's shield - without factoring resists - is worth the healing that Yasuo would get from 20% lifesteal after dealing 5060 physical damage from autos.

And remember, 36% of his damage is true damage that doesn't heal from lifesteal. He would have to deal 7906 damage from autos only before he would heal for the shield amount.

Want some resists? Build Atma's instead of Spear. 25 AD + 16 AD per second, capped at 105 AD.

It's not 36 anymore.

IE was nerfed.

It's like 32%

Modl Ryden lMay 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It's really not that broken. I don't know what the fuss is all about.

*It only works at 30% versus dots or multi-tick abilities, so no abuse there

*You need to build a fairly substantial amount of AD to get any real mileage, which will already make you squishier

*Its second passive is windowed with a sometimes risky trigger.

Yep, this.

It wouldn't be a substantial rush items as the only component that is relatively core and able to sit on is the item 3067 . Fighters like Riven Fiora Jayce Darius JarvanIV XinZhao to name a few can sit on Kindle Gem but NOT BF Sword as that would lock them into that item only. Whereas Kindlegem is flexible as it can build into Black Cleaver if the armor shred and more cdr is needed instead. Which later will supplement Shojin's passive.

And unlike The Black Cleaver, Shojin still has a huge build cost when sitting on Kindlegem.

It ultimately comes down to, do I really need this new item now? Or could I build more reliable items like item 3077 item 3052 item 3044 item 3155 for the identical cost of a single BF sword. Which, who's options are either Shojin or GA.

And as the last point mentioned, it's like item 3053 , it's not always guaranteed to proc unless the conditions are met.

BarcidMay 24, 20186 votes

I mean... are you surprised? This has pretty much been a gradual progression for a while now, damage reduction on damage heavy items.

item 3046 and item 3812 both showed the intent of how the designers wanted to finally address the complaints of some classes of champions getting dropped like rocks and outdueled - throw free damage reduction into their builds. It was only a matter of time before they figured they might as well just see where flat reduction takes the game.

ChargeItDownMidMay 24, 20182 votes

[deleted]

AirKingNeoMay 24, 20182 votes

except the new Atma's sucks and juggernauts suck because cleaver sucks

StrawberrycocoaMay 24, 20186 votes

It doesn't really matter who it's meant to be used by, because it will be picked up and exploited by champions Riot never intended to use it at all. Happens all the time. Riot gives class A a new toy, and class B who didn't even need any buffs runs with it and makes life hell. Same shit different patch.

CyberBaltMay 24, 20183 votes

Why would they need to keep pace with juggernauts, juggernaut is already one of the worst classes in the game.

AzadetheMay 24, 20181 votes

But Atma's is the more broken item.... it's going to be a 150 AD item on so many champs.

D357R0Y3RMay 24, 201814 votes

to get 150 ad, you would need 8000 max health

AzadetheMay 24, 20181 votes

[New] Atma's Reckoning [Fighter item planned 8.12 release - Context] Recipe: [Aegis of the Legion + Pickaxe + 925g] Total Cost: 2900g +25 Attack Damage +30 Armor +30 Magic Resist UNIQUE Passive: For each second in combat with enemy champions, turrets, or epic monsters, gain Attack Damage equal to 0.5% of maximum health, up to 2.5% .

is the current version.

5000 HP *.025 = 125.

It has 25 AD base.

Getting near 5000 HP is stupidly easy on Darius DrMundo Aatrox Sion Ornn Malphite Garen Chogath MonkeyKing Yorick TahmKench Rammus Poppy Renekton Nautilus Mordekaiser Olaf Urgot Gnar

Not all these are AD scaling, but they all get up near that HP.

Darius Chogath Gnar Sion in particular are going to be stupidly OP with it.

Sion actually scales AD, and can get 5-6k HP in common games. Cho can get 9-10k HP in a common game, and has a team wide aoe auto attack with his E (doesn't scale AD, but has an auto attack mechanism in which Atma's will add 250-275 damage per auto to a huge aoe attack, and has tank stats). Darius will pick it up and scale 2 items worth of AD in one item, which is going to boost his pre 5 stack damage and add more scaling to his ult as well.... he's going to be a 620 AD monster now. Gnar's ults will be buffed 120-130 AD, and his ult boosts his HP.

Even if the wielder is 3000 HP, Atma's is a 100 AD item. .025 of 3000 = 75 AD. Plus the 25 AD base. 3000 HP is common as hell.

Your math is wrong.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMay 24, 201814 votes

why do u list MonkeyKing in this list ??? Atma will never be useful/build on him

Getting near 5000 HP is stupidly easy on

[sg-lux-2]

AzadetheMay 24, 20181 votes

Wu sometimes builds tank. On Tank build Atma's is a 1 stop shop to bring in his AD. So yes. It will.

AirKingNeoMay 24, 20187 votes

F I V E S E C O N D S I N C O M B A T I don't think Wukong will buy this terrible item

ValiantKillerMay 24, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Wu sometimes builds tank. On Tank build Atma's is a 1 stop shop to bring in his AD. So yes. It will.

Do you even wukong ? Wukong if went full hp build he won't put any sort of damage, his kit work around AD and not hp.

ValiantKillerMay 24, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=boVlmU5N,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2018-05-24T16:43:28.334+0000)

why do u list in this list ??? Atma will never be useful/build on him

[sg-lux-2]

People really think wukong build hp lol, if wukong build he won't be able to put out any sort of damage by all means. This item made for heavy fighters like Urgot while spear made for light/heavy fighters like urgot and wukong. While urgot would get the most of spear cause he is frontline most of time.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMay 24, 20184 votes

{quoted}

People really think wukong build hp lol, if wukong build he won't be able to put out any sort of damage by all means.

yeah, they don't even know a simple fact : TankKong is a troll build.

This item made for heavy fighters like while spear made for light/heavy fighters like urgot and wukong. While urgot would get the most of spear cause he is frontline most of time.

yeah. even if i think Illaoi is an exception (think spear is good on her).

TranozeMay 25, 20181 votes

tankkong wont be a troll build after new Atma release. Same as Tankyi, Tankysua, TankFioa, Atma + item 3053 can suit well with item 3078 / item 3071 / item 3022 / item 3748 / item 3814 give you plenty of health/defense and doesnt actually reduce your damage. About defensive, those are even compare to Rammus item 3075 item 3143 item 3047 item 3742 item 3068 item 3194 in term of how long youcan survive inside enemy team because ADC can penetrate all your armor anyway. Atma is not broken though, it require 5 second of combat with champions/epic monster to get those ad.

The sad thing is after Atma patch, they realize ADC doesn have enough damage to play against fighter so they will buff crit again so the build can only live 0.5 secs against ADC. Typical Riot balance pattern...

Sun Wu RyuumokuMay 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

tankkong wont be a troll build after new Atma release. Same as Tankyi, Tankysua, TankFioa, Atma + can suit well with / / / /

Your so wrong here. Wukong dosn't work as Yi, Fiora or Yasuo.

TranozeMay 25, 20181 votes

Wukong doesnt work as those hyper carry, yes, but the build work on him, item 3078 item 3748 give him AA reset and bonus damage between ability, the combo E AA, Q reset W AA titanicAA QAA again give actually no less damage than item 3147 item 3142 (thank to the aa reset and titanic/triforce bonus damage). With Atma + item 3071 the second part of the bust become more reliable against tank, and is very easy snow ball cuz the build is actually tanky for him.

It not about the champion work same or not, it about they can use the item or not.

D357R0Y3RMay 25, 20181 votes

he can't use it because he needs to be 5 sec in fight

wukong press E+Q and oneshot someone with lethality, he doesn't builld 5000 hp+atma then he uses ult and deals aoe damage again he doesn't wait to get the bonus ad from atma

TranozeMay 26, 20181 votes

Pls understand Atma, he dont need to constant deal/take damage every mili secs, the buff atma give last for 2~3 secs, which, he can still be full time invisibility and when he reappear, just deal/take damage against enemy and the atma keep build up it buff. Actually MonkeyKing is the easiest champ to get full stack of Atma and get full benefit of it. Other figher doesnt have enough defense against AD (with True damage to crit incoming) to last longer than 5 secs in combat. There are currently no FULL TANK need bonus AD. has stealth that can protect him half of the duration of stacking atma.

Just E Q, stealth and walk then aa again give wukong atleast 3 secs of combat, without taken any actual damage if you do it right. Yes, the current play style W E Q R doenst fit tankong, but it doesnt mean tankong doesnt have any other play style to work around. Without item 3147 he doesnt need to be stealth before enter combat.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMay 25, 20181 votes

Have u ever played Wukong ?? item 3748 is garbage on Wukong... will be even worse with AD loss.

item 3814 is too situationnal atm

U compare item 3748 item 3078 to item 3142 item 3147 = like 8 K to 6 K items with horrible build path for Wukong. Only Sheen add much to Wukong job.

Atma wont be build on Wukong :

Wukong is build squishy af
Wukong don't fight long as 5 sec without retreat... Make no sens to begin, imagine a Talon bruiser !!
Atma build only work after x items... Wukong can't wait 3 items to do his job

Every Wukong players will end to the same conclusions.

TranozeMay 26, 20181 votes

Wukong don't fight long as 5 sec without retreat... Make no sens to begin, imagine a Talon bruiser !!

Atma proc doesnt need you to constant AA enemy for every single miliseconds, the buff can be there 2~3 secs i think, which, wukong will be in stealth mode and still got the buff of Atma refresh. (Unlike item 3124 )

horrible build path for Wukong. Only Sheen add much to Wukong job.

The build path is not horrible, item 3077 are very good for clearing jungle early, lots junglers rush them now. Wukon is Fighter/Diver, so he is not "squishy af" A fighter Wukong can build item 3057 early give a good amount of bust and clearing (with aa reset).

Wukong is build squishy af

Yes, that assassinkong, but we are discussing about the possiblity of HPkong aka tanKong. He gain good amount of Armor and magic resist from his passive and Atma, so building health actually give him a very good amount of defense.

is garbage on Wukong... will be even worse with AD loss.

Yes, at this (i repeat, THIS) patch, it is garbage (if you active this before you Q and refuse to use the AA reset properly), but if you dont know that we are discussing about the next patch where atma got release, it a different story. And if you dont realize or read PBE, item 3748 cost will be reduced, and it give better bust than item 3074 (with or without bonus health), and ADC will deal true damage on crit, invest gold on HP is never a bad idea

D357R0Y3RMay 24, 201820 votes

morde having 5000 hp

go rest a bit fam

also go on PBE and try to get 5000 hp with a non troll build on darius

AzadetheMay 24, 20181 votes

item 3071 item 3083 item 3065 item 3742 item 1001 with about 280 minions dying near him, has 5000 HP on a Resolve build or a Conquerer build with Resolve secondaries on Overgrowth.

Most Darius builds on any resolve runes hit 4500 Hp over the course of a game with 4 items (leaving 1 item empty for Atma's)

Sterak's build has 4500.

Even AD builds pull 4000 HP.

D357R0Y3RMay 24, 20188 votes

{quoted}

with about 280 minions dying near him, has 5000 HP on a Resolve build or a Conquerer build with Resolve secondaries on Overgrowth.

No, he still doesn't reach 5000 hp and that build is beyond troll

you also can't build black cleaver+warmog+spirit visage+deadman+sterak+atma+boots that's 7 items

DeathBurstMay 25, 20181 votes

Darius (Lvl 18): 2882 Cleaver: 400 Warmog: 800 Spirit: 450 Deadman: 452 Resolve Path Bonus (Lvl 18) : 135

Total: 5119

You don't even need Overgrowth to get to 5000.

And the only questionable item is Warmog, but even with Sterak instead you're pretty close to 5000.

D357R0Y3RMay 25, 20181 votes

YOU DON4T BUILD warmog on darius, stop with this shit

also he doesn't have 2800 base hp http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Darius

i don't know what's your plan but darius doesn't get 5000 hp period i have 8 years of league experience and never saw darius achieving 5000 hp a single time

DeathBurstMay 25, 20181 votes

My bad, I actually checked the wiki, but I typo'ed 2882 instead of 2282.

Still, you get easily more than 4000 HP on any Darius build, which is already massive for Atma.

And I already addressed the question of Warmog...

And the only questionable item is Warmog, but even with Sterak instead ....

And if you plan to go for Atma, you can also ADAPT your build for it, so building a Warmog in that context is much more logical than in Darius standard build.

ShablagooMay 24, 20183 votes

Who reaches 5000 hp regularly in this game?

Daddy AntsMay 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Who reaches 5000 hp regularly in this game?

Besides Chogath and maybe Sion no one.

{quoted}

even one second is +40 AD on most builds these guys will use. And 5 seconds in combat on a tank is completely doable. Keep in mind.... Combat includes minions, epic monsters, etc. You can charge it farming.

You can only charge Atma's in combat with Champions, Turrets or Epic Monsters.

DeathBurstMay 25, 20181 votes

Pretty much all Juggernauts reach at least 4000 HP at Lvl 18. Darius standard build is at 4700.

Daddy AntsMay 25, 20181 votes