BotRK: Isn't it too good?

1 Wing·Apr 18, 2015·9 votes·1,504 views

So many players rush Blade of the Ruined King. AD Champions who are going either mid lane, or ADC, frequently build it first. Rationally, this should not be the right idea: their lane opponents don't have high health; especially not early on.

If someone were to rush Liandry's mid, you'd probably think "well, okay. . but, you surely could be more useful with many other items instead; build Liandry's as your third item how about!"

Yet BotRK gets rushed, game after game. Even when the opposing team has no high health champions. Isn't this a sign that it's too good? As an item about dealing %hp damage, it should not be effective in the early/mid game. Right?

45 Comments

Togira IkonokaApr 18, 20154 votes

BoRK is a pretty necessary item with the tank meta that's been happening lately.

1 WingApr 18, 20152 votes

Yah, but I see people grabbing botrk when the other team doesn't have a health tank. Like, there's one ruby crystal of bonus health across their entire team, and even more than one player will build botrk to fight that; that's not right!!

Cloud273Apr 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mmm Broccoli,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bjdyQ8lw,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-04-18T17:38:45.224+0000)

BoRK is a pretty necessary item with the tank meta that's been happening lately.

Tank meta? Are you f****** kidding me. We have armor pen, true damage, grievous wounds, %health damage, DOT abilities, and ignite. If you can't take down tanks with all of this, there's something wrong with you.

Drakzul the DarkApr 18, 20153 votes

{quoted}

So many players rush Blade of the Ruined King.

Is everyone playing Vayne?

1 WingApr 18, 20151 votes

well she is pretty popular. I see vaynes rush it probably 80% of the time.

IpolsApr 18, 20153 votes

I don't know what elo are you playng, but I never see people rushing botrk exept for vayne and for people against mundo/voli. so you'd be right IF your initial statament were true, which it isn't in my opinion

JustMyBassCannonApr 18, 20153 votes

"People rush BotRK, but they don't rush Liandry's."

Well, yeah. That's normal.

First off, BotRK is actually not that often a rushed first-item. When it is, it's core to the champion (see also, Vayne).

Second point, BotRK and Liandry's build paths are separated significantly. "Well, duh, one's AD and one's AP--" No, no, no, listen to me. Blade of the Ruined King builds out of Vampiric Scepter, a relatively cheap and often-considered core item to Marksmen, as Lifesteal is their main avenue of defense items. Once a champion has a Vamp Scepter, they choose between Bloodthirster (a more defensive option unless you have incredible AD ratios), Essence Reaver (niche pick with CDR and mana sustain), Zeke's Herald (hah!) and Blade of the Ruined King. Liandry's Torment, on the other hand, builds out of Haunting Guise (Amp Tome + Ruby Crystal) and an Amp Tome. The base items--Crystal and Tome--are essential building block items for mages, but they provide strictly offensive or defensive bonuses, and have rather attractive upgrade paths that lead away from Guise and Liandry's.

Finally, frankly, while Liandry's is more than cost-efficient with its damage, it unfortunately doesn't feel like it's very powerful; plus, due to the "on spell hit" activation, it really only seems to shine when picked up by a DoT-focused mage, or one that casts spells frequently enough to refresh the DoT, but not so fast that it overrides the DoT.

1 WingApr 18, 20151 votes

but this still doesn't touch on why gaining %hp damage early on is effective. Logically: champions don't have high health until the late game, so hitting them with botrk should be less effective than alternative choices. Yet it's still a frequent pick by the mid game.

I get what you're saying about vamp scepter being so accessible. It's hard not to go down the botrk route: exchange back and forth in lane, go back and buy scepter, then next time grab bilgewater, then it's more effective to complete an item than be split between two items, and there's nothing else for anyone but Akali to build into once they have bilgewater.

So is that the reason? It's just so convenient? What if it had a different build path the didn't have vamp scepter? Or what if vamp scepter didn't exist, and something else did for more gold. Would it still be so frequently built?

It seems to me that it should be the wrong choice to build early, but some many players building it quickly makes me think it is effective; and building it myself certainly seems powerful. Yet it doesn't logically seem like it deserves to be so powerful early on.

JustMyBassCannonApr 18, 20151 votes

If Blade of the Ruined King didn't have the two core offensive stats for AD champions plus Lifesteal, it would lose popularity.

There are very few AD champions who don't use AS or Lifesteal, so the fact that BotRK has all three stats is a huge contributor to its popularity.

Meanwhile, MPen and Health are both separate stats that do not usually scale with each other. They are, individually, useful to mages, but not connected.

On top of that, while BotRK's %HP is instant, Liandry's %HP takes time to complete. Harass and DoT mages do well enough, but Liandry's effect during a burst rotation is not very noticeable.

If Liandry's had sustain in its build path, it would definitely be more used. Were its build path similar to Morellonomicon, it would be seen much more frequently as a first or second item.

PartholonianApr 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Blade of the Ruined King builds out of Vampiric Scepter, a relatively cheap and often-considered core item to Marksmen, as Lifesteal is their main avenue of defense items. Once a champion has a Vamp Scepter, they choose between Bloodthirster (a more defensive option unless you have incredible AD ratios), Essence Reaver (niche pick with CDR and mana sustain), Zeke's Herald (hah!) and Blade of the Ruined King.

You're leaving out one option: sit on the Vamp Scepter for a while and start building your next item, the way people do with, for example, Haunting Guise. (Or even more so, Tear. Who rushes a Tear upgrade?) Precisely because its tankbuster upgrade is NOT efficient to rush early game. So why should BOTRK's be?

1 WingApr 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You're leaving out one option: sit on the Vamp Scepter for a while and start building your next item, the way people do with, for example, Haunting Guise. (Or even more so, Tear. Who rushes a Tear upgrade?) Precisely because its tankbuster upgrade is NOT efficient to rush early game. So why should BOTRK's be?

but it is pretty efficient; that's why I have a problem with it.

JustMyBassCannonApr 18, 20151 votes

Both Liandry's and BotRK are cost-inefficient. BotRK is 550 gold short, and Liandry's is 497 gold short.

550 gold is approximately 15 AD, and 497 gold is approximately 23 AP.

The difference is that one scales better with itself than the other.

JustMyBassCannonApr 18, 20151 votes

Again, the vast majority of champions who use BotRK do not rush it first.

The one who I can name that can always afford to do so is Vayne.

And the only reason she can afford to rush BotRK is because it builds from a sustain item.

Whichever lane you play, sustain is important. Health and/or mana sustain dictates how long you can protect your lane. In the case of BotRK, your core building block is also the sustain you need, and it slowly builds up to an offensive sustain item that literally any AD champion can use effectively, and only a very select few would prefer Bloodthirster for its raw AD and more defensive sustain power.

Liandry's Torment doesn't build from health or mana sustain at all. This kind of hampers the ability to rush it, because even the DoT/DPS mages who utilize it perfectly need sustain before they can build offense.

DurzakaApr 18, 20152 votes

So many people?

There are like 4 champions who rush BotRK as a first item.

Twitch Zed Vayne (SOMETIMES) Tryndamere Trundle

Who else rushes BotRK? Im pretty sure i didnt miss anyone.

TimeszApr 18, 20151 votes

Some Ezreal and Miss Fortune players tend to rush BoTRK. I usually build into it after Critty Edge, though.

Back on topic: BotRK is really good early game because of the minimum 100 damage nuke from the active more than the % per hit passive. Anyone with on-hit abilities such as Miss Fortune or Ezreal or AD steroids like Twitch and Vayne easily make up the loss damage from the B.F.Sword family line.

EndlessSorcererApr 18, 20151 votes

It's also a fairly common rush on Aatrox Jax MasterYi Olaf Shyvana Warwick

They may not always rush it, but it's a very common early purchase on them. Keep in mind, I have no issue with the item. Just pointing out that there are other champions who build it early.

DurzakaApr 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's also a common rush on

They may not always rush it, but it's a very common early purchase on them. Keep in mind, I have no issue with the item. Just pointing out that there are other champions who build it early.

The only one on that list who can even justify rushing botrk is Shyvana. The rest of them may build it, but as a first item it is just bad.

EndlessSorcererApr 18, 20151 votes

Not really. Aatrox likes the attack speed and lifesteal, Jax will get it first against tanks, lane Yi and Warwick both work very well with the on-hit and attack speed, and Olaf can get it if he's winning lane to stick on people and it's synergy with his W and passive.

It's not always the optimal option, but it's often a good one. Especially since each of them have some synergy with attack speed and on-hit effects, it offers good sustain. and sticking potential.

BluePolarizerApr 18, 20151 votes

Yi/WW build devourer first. Just sayin.

redniwediSApr 18, 20151 votes

It's rare, but they can be played top lane too. Very few junglers only jungle.

BluePolarizerApr 18, 20151 votes

Yi top is inferior to Yi mid. Yi mid can get BF sword first back. WW top getting BoRK first instead of cutlass then tank just means squishy as fk early game since he has no tankiness without items but he has plenty of damage without items.

redniwediSApr 18, 20151 votes

They can be inferior as all hell, they still happen. BotRK is one thing, but the point you seem to have missed is that they don't build devourer first.

FantasySniperApr 18, 20152 votes

Health and armor scales throughout the game, so the current health isn't as powerful as you think it is early or late. Its purpose is to provide AS + LS in a way that isn't reliant on AD scaling to be useful. This makes it very attractive for poorly scaling ADCs (Vayne, Twitch, Kog'Maw, Corki), melees who can't afford to be glass cannons, but want both of those stats. (Xin Zhao, Jax, Warwick), or basically anyone who can synergize with the On-Hit effect or active. (Zed, Lucian, Ezreal)

The item's problem isn't at all of its current health damage, it's how much it provides to such a wide range of champions.

SwollwonderApr 18, 20151 votes

No one should really build bork first and most people dont...so...

Poorly DressedApr 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No one should really build bork first and most people dont...so...

Most Zeds do, or Twitch for example used to do it a lot

SwollwonderApr 18, 20151 votes

There are exceptions but generally..no

KeevalroyApr 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No one should really build bork first and most people dont...so...

Aatrox Quinn Shyvana Trundle Twitch Vayne Zed

Sometimes: Gnar Kalista KogMaw Tryndamere

Maybe "most people" counts when you're including the entire roster, in which case you'd be right - most people don't, but as for the people that benefit from it, they generally rush it. As for the "no one should really build bork first" part, I'm confused as to what would be a better first item for these champions.

Poorly DressedApr 18, 20151 votes

I guess the main difference is that Bork works on AA and on some Abilites, so it doesn't take mana to use - basically. If you are a spellcaster (mage) with a lot of mana consumption you can't really utilize a Liandries rush. If at all i think Liandries is not strong enough. It work on energy based champs like Rumble or Kennen though, which makes the mana issues even more obvious.

HeWolfApr 18, 20151 votes

TL;DR: It gives a little bit of everything (Damage, On-hit & %maxHP effect, sustain, kiting active, attack speed...)

Zair UmbrasApr 18, 20151 votes

Well, Liandry's isn't actually picked up by champs who simply lack in mana. If that was the case, Kat would use it a bit more often. It's more or less just an item picked up for its MPen. When your bases are high, you pick up the Liandry's to make them even stronger. Nost don't typically rush a Liandry's though. You'll almost always see a Rumble, Kennen, or anyone who plans on getting a Liandry's finish at the Guise for a couple items before finishing because the proc isn't noticeable unless you're hitting a biiiiiiiig tank and even then it's not too noticeable. It maxes at 4% per sec of current health, which is when you have the enemy CC'd for the entire duration. It ticks at half-sec intervals, so it's not doing a solid 4%, it's doing 2% per half second, so it does less than 4% every second since their health is lower when it ticks the second time in that second.

BotRK doesn't require an enemy to be CC'd and does a solid 8% every single AA. This dies down as the target gets lower, but it's still a solid item. As I've mentioned though on another thread a while back....

BotRK has a 25 AD base. BT has an 80 AD base. That's a 55 AD difference. At full build, IE and PD, that 50 AD is enhanced by a 55% chance to do 250% damage. That means (55x.55x2.5)=~75.625. Average tank has 4k health, but we'll look at some one with 2k health. 8% of 2000 health is 160. On a SQUISHY, a BotRK can deal MORE damage per AA until the squishy is at about 945.3125 (Gotten by doing simple algebra where .08 times X health=75.625 so you divide 75.625 by .08.) , which is when the BT becomes stronger damage-wise average DPS-wise.

When it comes down to it, BotRK is going to be popular amongst assassins and ADCs since it provides more damage on AA's than its counterpart, plus has the big bursty % of max health active that also steals movement speed, allowing for easier stickiness or kiting ability. BT will likely stay a big item for certain ADC's with bigger AD ratios rations though, like Draven and Graves.

EndlessSorcererApr 18, 20151 votes

A lot of bruisers will rush it as their main damage item because:

it has a good build path for early game
it offers sustain
it helps you chase or escape
it's damage scales over the game

If fighters or tanks are going to build damage, they usually want to get it as their first main item (when they are still dueling in the laning phase) before they need to get tanky for teamfights.

HeWolfApr 18, 20151 votes

I don't know if you build it frequently, but the upgrade Bilgewater->Botrk is painful to say the least.

I agree with all of your other statements though.

JeijeApr 18, 20151 votes

The new buildpath on the PBE will hopefully fix that.

HeWolfApr 18, 20151 votes

I don't really like how flexible the item is. I don't want it to be much more easy to introduce in builds. Although I like the change they're introducing with the Bow, I don't like it to be in Botrk's components.

EndlessSorcererApr 18, 20151 votes

I do build it pretty frequently and I will admit that the upgrade can be a bit painful. However, the item is built from cheap components and no part of the item costs more than 500G, except for the final upgrade which costs 950G. Compared to items which build out of Needlessly Large Rod or BF Sword, it is far easier to purchase if you have to back frequently, since you can purchase the components for a bit of a power boost instead of having to deal the purchase.

HeWolfApr 18, 20151 votes

I would remowe the damage part of it and compensate amplifying some of the stats it already gives. As the OP said, it should not be a powerspike itself, it should give only a window to kill tanks.

I'm a bit radical, but I'm kind of biased because I hated the time where Botrk-Youmuu ADCs dominated botlane.

BluePolarizerApr 18, 20151 votes

so how is the exact same build of IE BT LW Shiv Boots GA any better? That actually shreds tanks way faster than BoRK/Youmuu, BoRK/Youmuu is a snowballing build, not a late game build.

HeWolfApr 18, 20151 votes

The build you mentioned is way more slow to pick up. Also, I have the right to hate whatever I want.

BluePolarizerApr 18, 20151 votes

sure you do. I also have the right to tell you why I think its illogical. Goes both ways nerdo.

HeWolfApr 18, 20151 votes

The reason why I hated that build is because I'm not a good duelist and I'm better at lategame decissions. But you know what, that doesn't mean that I should be disrespectful or that I must insult to make my points. Have a nice day.

arcinexApr 18, 20151 votes

Rushing bork is a bad idea for ADC's even for Vayne.

I see fighters/assassins/bruisers rush bork / stattik shiv. (Tryn, Yi, Fizz(jungle), Trundle, Zed, Yasuo)

Poorly DressedApr 18, 20151 votes

AD Teemo :D

Poorly DressedApr 18, 20151 votes

It is a fantastic item against the cinderhulk rushers since it only gives flat HP. We might see a revival of Bork rush? :) Don't be a meta sheep and rush IE first no matter what.

3tysonApr 18, 20151 votes

Ad > ap

Sire HippingtonApr 18, 20151 votes

not to mention it's rushed on assasins like Zed and Rengar... BotrK actually is to good, it gives to many things at once, as, ad, a bery strong on-hit, sustain and a massive active for even less gold than a BT. by the time you finish BotrK, champs will have about 1000health, thats an average of 40 damage from the on-hit, together with the ad thats 65 dmage per AA in average, only 15 less than BT, but with 40% as on top and the active, and it get's strongerif you enemies get more tanky. However, since the on-hit doesn't crit, it'S weaker than BT if you have a Phantomdancer in adition(unless you have a heavy as scaling like kog or vayne) and on top off that it has a more convinient builtpath aswell as the active...

If you compare it to Season 2 bloodrazor(rest in peace old friend), you notice how absurf it is. for 650g less, you gain a similar poerfull on-hit(8% current is 4%max in average), 5ad less, same as and 12% Lifesteal which is alot better than the 30 armor that madrets gave. On top of the already better stats due lifesteal, it has a massive active, stealing qo%health and 30% movement is damn powerfull. But as if all that wasn't enough, it also has one of the most convinient buildpaths in the game.