Icebourne Ezreal

NodirjonSattarov·Nov 6, 2016·5 votes·795 views

IBG Ezreal has 215 armor at the end of the game from building IBG and GA. Not even a tank

21 Comments

ChaoticPineconeNov 6, 20166 votes

Lets not pretend that 215 armor is a lot. Some champions (Darius, Garen) can hit that with 1 item. Graves can hit that with none.

NiamhNyxNov 6, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Lets not pretend that 215 armor is a lot. Some champions (Darius, Garen) can hit that with 1 item. Graves can hit that with none.

graves pretty much starts the game with 999 armor and 100% life steal, unless hes on your team.

NodirjonSattarovNov 6, 20161 votes

what 1 item obtains roughly 150 armor?

ChaoticPineconeNov 6, 20165 votes

Darius has 98 base armor at 18. Take 9 from runes. Thornmail gives 100. 5 points in unyielding gives you +5% bonus armor (it ends up being around 5). Totals 213.

Garen gets 78 base, 30 from his W. 9 from runes. Thornmail gives 100. You dont even need unyielding for 217.

Edit - Rammus, Braum, Yorick, Malphite, Taric and Poppy also can do this with the same setup. And that doesnt include champions like Leona, Shyvana, Wukong, Olaf, Rengar, Trundle or Singed who can increase their armor for short periods of time. Then of course there is Thresh.

NodirjonSattarovNov 6, 20161 votes

The mastery path for Darius and Garen are different than Ezreal, right? Ezreal has no armor abilities like Garen or high base armor like Darius. Your additional comparisons have some sort of armor/ reduction multiplier on their abilities or simply naturally tanky. When Ezreal builds IBG, he has 9 armor to start with and at level 18 has 81.4 armor. Once he gets IBG (I'm going to be fair and say at level 9) he has 45.5 base armor +65 armor. Now this is without any additional armor masteries or anything (since he's an ADC he doesn't invest in any). So at level 18, with IBG, GA, and base 18 armor he has 65+81.4+60 armor which is 206.4 armor. At 206.4 armor, using the armor reduction formula, the enemy only does 33% x their damage. Compare this to an ADC that only has GA, lets pick Lucian since his play rate is really high. Incoming damage is multiplied 43% x the physical damage.

So if X champion does 100 damage, Ezreal takes 33 damage and Lucian takes 43. This doesn't seem like alot but with the fluidity of Ezreal kit, and a number of ways he can proc IBG, it's extremely efficient on him. Now, these calculations are without the 7% armor pen from masteries.

ChaoticPineconeNov 6, 20162 votes

Not sure why you bring up mastery paths or midgame builds. And I never doubted that Ezreal can have over 200 armor lategame with a Iceborn and GA.

My point was that 200ish armor just really isnt that much, and with 1 item many champions can exceed it. You dont need 150 armor from items to hit it - you only need around 100 for many champions. And I never said ALL champions can hit it. I specifically stated SOME can hit it. Yes, the champions I listed have some defensive multipliers - so what? They hit over 200 with one item, right?

And i dont really care how much the damage is reduced. Sure, your math may be right. But Lucian also tends to rush ghostblade - what about the 5 or so minutes when Lucian has +10 armor pen and Ezreal is sitting on a tear? Why isnt that factored in?

Or the fact that while Ezreal will have 200 armor with Iceborn/GA and Lucian sits at around 150, Lucian also goes with the Black Cleaver that reduces TOTAL armor by 30% + having +20 armorpen? What about effectiveness against mages? (and did you imply Lucians kit isnt fluid?)

Anyhow, I dont see how your comment is on point. Your thread seemed to be complaining that Ezreal can build one defensive item and one bruiser item and get to 200 armor lategame. Im saying that 200 armor just really isnt that much lategame.

NodirjonSattarovNov 6, 20161 votes

I'm saying that 200 armor for an ADC is unusual. I incorporated masteries because you incorporated them in your calculations. You keep saying, "with one item many champions exceed that" but I'm explicitly talking about ADCs, perhaps I should have clarified.

By the time Ghost Blade is completed, Ezreal should either have Manamune or IBG so he isn't just "sitting on a tear". If you want, I can factor it. Lets say at level 9 Ezreal has 35.5 while Lucian has 43.3. If Lucian has Ghost blade he does 74% of his base damage while Ezreal does 69% to lucian. When Ezreal gets IBG however, the damage that Lucian does reduces to x49% his base damage. Do you see how much of a difference that is? Once Black Cleaver is completed then its a different story. If we are talking stats ONLY, then yeah Ezreal should get shredded from 90.4 armor (already including Youmoos Ghostblade) to 60 armor which would multiply Lucian damage by 62%. I agree it's quite a bit of a jump.

I think you are trying to broaden the spectrum. Let's focus on Ezreal vs other ADCs. I know he's different compared to other ADCs. SURELY, no ADC is like him with reduced CDR on abilities every time he hits his Q kappa (ie; Graves, Lucian).

If you want we can incorporate how much damage each (Lucian vs Ezreal) at the end of the game from autos to abilities.

ChaoticPineconeNov 6, 20162 votes

I made it as clear as possible in my original post I was not specifically limiting myself to ADCs. The two champions I mentioned that could get over 200 armor with 1 item were Garen and Darius - you asked to clarify how, and I did. And now youre trying to limit the discussion to ADCs.

My point is that lategame, you wouldnt call a Darius with only a Thornmail for armor tanky, would you? An ADC or AD Mid would shred through a Darius with only a thornmail. And thats my point - 200 armor just isnt that much.

I dont like going into midgame builds, because a lot of it is situationally dependent on the player, champion, lane vs jungle, teamfight vs splitpushing, and the supports. But you switched the topic from "end of the game with Iceborn and GA" to level 9 calculations and I'm not sure why.

Edit - and when i said Ezreal is "sitting on a tear" I didnt mean when Lucian finished Ghostblade. Lucian gets +20 armor pen when he finishes ghostblade. I was talking about the first back when Ezreal comes back with Cull+Tear (usually) and Lucian comes back with the +10 pen from Dirk.

I'm not trying to broaden anything - youre trying to change my position. Dont get anything twisted - I'm not talking about damage, I'm not talking about Ezreal vs Other ADCs, I didnt bring up Ezreal vs Lucian. You brought up all these points, and in my response I reminded you that youre getting off topic.

Ive kept my position simple - 200 armor isnt much lategame and some champions can hit that with 1 item. So while youre outraged that Ezreal can have 200 armor lategame with 1 bruiser item and 1 defensive item, I'm pointing out that other champions can do the same with less items.

NodirjonSattarovNov 6, 20161 votes

Alright, I honestly didn't know where you were trying to go with your point initially but now I believe I do. If you're saying that 215 armor isn't necessarily tanky, what would you consider tanky late game? Isn't the point of building armor to sustain the damage from 1) other melee 2) ranged champions? 200 armor is a lot of armor for ADCs. I probably should have clarified in the original post by saying "haha, ezreal an adc with the tankiness of garen/darius but not too tanky because 200 armor is clearly not alot late game". Jokes aside, if you disagree that 200 armor on an ADC isn't alot then I'd love to play in your elo. 200 armor is so much that even with the 3 armor pen items (maw, youmoos, duskblade) I only shred 50armor so I'd have to build LRD to deal with that bonus armor.

All in all, I do agree with you that 200 armor isn't alot on Garen/Darius but I 100% disagree that it isn't alot on an ADC. It's unusual and unfun to play against. If you think this is me complaining, so be it. I've tried to reason with you by comparing ADCs vs Ezreal and how unusually tanky he is to go against but you're completely ignoring my point.

HERE IS ME COMPLAINING:

FROM AN ADC STANDPOINT, I play tons of Draven and I hate when I have to face an IBG Ezreal that has 215 armor late game while I only have 80 and the ridiculous amount poke he has with his slows and sheen proc in one ability. Why shouldn't I build armor? Because unlike IBG (with the sheen proc) there is no item that substitutes a TON of damage for half that damage and some armor. I get it, Ezreal is unique and has to give up damage for sustain but the sustain comes with 65 armor and a slow and 100% base damage.

If you disagree that 200 armor on an ADC is not alot, don't bother replying again.

ChaoticPineconeNov 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Alright, I honestly didn't know where you were trying to go with your point initially but now I believe I do. If you're saying that 215 armor isn't necessarily tanky, what would you consider tanky late game? Isn't the point of building armor to sustain the damage from 1) other melee 2) ranged champions?

"Tanky" is a relative term. I consider "tanky" is best served by two different situations - 1) being able to sustain damage the enemy team longer than the enemy tank can sustain damage from yours, or 2) being able to withstand the damage taken and use your base stats to win fights. There isnt a magic Armor # that suddenly makes you tanky. But in the grand context of things, 200 Armor lategame just isnt going to withstand much.

200 armor is a lot of armor for ADCs. I probably should have clarified in the original post by saying "haha, ezreal an adc with the tankiness of garen/darius but not too tanky because 200 armor is clearly not alot late game". Jokes aside, if you disagree that 200 armor on an ADC isn't alot then I'd love to play in your elo. 200 armor is so much that even with the 3 armor pen items (maw, youmoos, duskblade) I only shred 50armor so I'd have to build LRD to deal with that bonus armor.

First of all, we are in the same elo. (Actually, I'm currently higher than you and I peaked higher than you). Granted, I dont main ADC, but neither do you. No, going 3 flat armor pen items isnt going to shred much lategame, but thats the tradeoff for investing in early game items.

Secondly, lets do the math on this: 200 armor on Ezreal is 81 base + 120 bonus. The 4 armor pen items makes that 160 armor - so 81 base + 80 bonus. LDR shreds through 45% of bonus, which is an additional 36 armor pen. Whether you think you need LDR to shred 36 armor is up to you, but I'm telling you that getting an IE, BT, or Mercurial will probably do the similar amounts of damage to the Ezreal.

All in all, I do agree with you that 200 armor isn't alot on Garen/Darius but I 100% disagree that it isn't alot on an ADC. It's unusual and unfun to play against. If you think this is me complaining, so be it. I've tried to reason with you by comparing ADCs vs Ezreal and how unusually tanky he is to go against but you're completely ignoring my point.

Its not unusually tanky. Its just tanky. Graves gets unusually tanky for an ADC. Urgot can run the Iceborn/GA build you describe and be tanky.

And for the last time: I NEVER COMPARED EZREAL TO ANY OTHER ADC ASIDE FROM GRAVES. You ask why I'm ignoring your point? Because youre attributing something to me that I never said. Did I say anything about the armor Ezreal gets over his opponent? Did I say anything about matchups? Why the hell do you keep trying to bring up matchups?

My original post to this thread was literally 3 sentences. It was 25 words. You felt the need to overly defend after I proved you wrong, and youre bringing up offhand arguments "proving" something that never was debated. Yes, Lucian with no armor items has less armor than an Iceborn+GA Ezreal. Is that news to anybody?

HERE IS ME COMPLAINING:

FROM AN ADC STANDPOINT, I play tons of Draven and I hate when I have to face an IBG Ezreal that has 215 armor late game while I only have 80 and the ridiculous amount poke he has with his slows and sheen proc in one ability. Why shouldn't I build armor? Because unlike IBG (with the sheen proc) there is no item that substitutes a TON of damage for half that damage and some armor. I get it, Ezreal is unique and has to give up damage for sustain but the sustain comes with 65 armor and a slow and 100% base damage.

If you disagree that 200 armor on an ADC is not alot, don't bother replying again.

I'm not going to listen to you because #1 - you were proven wrong and #2 - your refuse to listen to anybody who doesnt share your opinion. I can make the same complaints - "Draven is too strong an ADC early. If you dont think so, dont bother replying." What kind of stupid ass comment is that? Sounds like a kid who puts his fingers in his ears just to scream "I cant hear you!"

Oh, and nice comparison with Draven. Lets compare a Draven at level 17 with no armor runes and no GA (Cause even just at 18, he gets 82 base armor. At level 18 with 9 armor runes and GA Draven gets around 150) to an Iceborn Ezreal at 18 with 1 bruiser item, 1 tank item, and armor runes. Yeah, youre just spewing random crap cause you know youre wrong.

NodirjonSattarovNov 7, 20161 votes

But in the grand context of things, 200 Armor lategame just isnt going to withstand much.

200 armor (late game or not) reduces incoming physical damage by 66%. This isn't just auto attacks, this is any sort of physical damage. Of course you can get LDR/flat armor pen to reduce that amount which would reduce incoming damage by 53% with just LDR and you know how flat armor pen works. With every penetration item, with 200 armor incoming damage would be reduced by 44%. That means that with Youmoos, Maw, Dusblade flat penetration, 7% from masteries, and 45% from LDR you do x50% physical damage multiplier. The formula is right here http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor . As you can see just using standard 100 armor amount (with no additional reductions) you get 50% damage reduction. Armor becomes negligible when you build too much armor but there is a certain cap when it becomes sufficient. Here are the numbers:

100 armor -> 50% damage reduction 200 armor -> 67% damage reduction 300 armor -> 75% damage reduction 400 armor -> 80% damage reduction

It jumps 17% from 100 to 200 then only 8% from 200 to 300. So the essential amount of armor (and yes, HP too) is somewhere between 200-300. Ezreal in that game had 215 armor.

First of all, we are in the same elo. (Actually, I'm currently higher than you and I peaked higher than you). Granted, I dont main ADC, but neither do you.

You aren't placed higher than me : http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=nodirjonsattarov , http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=vorattasridon ,http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=afr0sam are my three accounts. It's just my name spelled in reverse on the second one. Also, I do main ADC it's just that Kog'Maw is really bad right now and I can't play my favorite void puppy anywhere else.

Secondly, lets do the math on this: 200 armor on Ezreal is 81 base + 120 bonus. The 4 armor pen items makes that 160 armor - so 81 base + 80 bonus. LDR shreds through 45% of bonus, which is an additional 36 armor pen. Whether you think you need LDR to shred 36 armor is up to you

The math is 81 base + 125 bonus armor. You have to factor bonus armor with LDR first rendering 56.25 [.45125] bonus armor. 68.75bonus +81 base = 149.75 armor -40 flat armor =109.75 . Doing it your way gets me 81 + 85 bonus armor then 85-(85.45) =127.75. I'm not sure which way it is or if I did it right so correct me if I'm wrong. Using my method damage multiplier would be x.48% and your way would be x.44%.

EDIT: I forgot to include the 9 armor from runes, sorry.

I NEVER COMPARED EZREAL TO ANY OTHER ADC ASIDE FROM GRAVES.

You're right, my bad. I agree that Graves gets unusually tanky from having no items. I think both Graves and Urgot get naturally tanky from their abilities.

Did I say anything about the armor Ezreal gets over his opponent? Did I say anything about matchups? Why the hell do you keep trying to bring up matchups?

I suppose I shouldn't have brought up matchups, I was simply trying to create a scenario in Ezreal's situation and other ADCs. I may have mislead you, though.

My original post to this thread was literally 3 sentences. It was 25 words. You felt the need to overly defend after I proved you wrong, and youre bringing up offhand arguments "proving" something that never was debated. Yes, Lucian with no armor items has less armor than an Iceborn+GA Ezreal. Is that news to anybody?

I've already explained that between 200-300 armor is optimal. If I ever see a Rammus with 600 armor I will lose my mind. That's a lot of armor, but is unnecessary. You've continuously said that that 200 isn't alot but haven't said how much "is alot of armor".

I'm not going to listen to you because #1 - you were proven wrong and #2 - your refuse to listen to anybody who doesnt share your opinion.

I've agreed with you countless number of times. I think you aren't reading my comments at all. I've said several times that 215 isn't alot but is still quite a bit of armor. IBG is the 3rd highest armor provider, right under Frozen Heart and Thornmail.

Yeah, youre just spewing random crap cause you know youre wrong.

You for real? I've been consistently trying to put numbers out on the table.

Let's start over and only talk about armor, reduction, and damage multipliers.

ChaoticPineconeNov 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

200 armor (late game or not) reduces incoming physical damage by 66%. This isn't just auto attacks, this is any sort of physical damage. Of course you can get LDR/flat armor pen to reduce that amount which would reduce incoming damage by 53% with just LDR and you know how flat armor pen works. With every penetration item, with 200 armor incoming damage would be reduced by 44%. That means that with Youmoos, Maw, Dusblade flat penetration, 7% from masteries, and 45% from LDR you do x50% physical damage multiplier. The formula is right here http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor . As you can see just using standard 100 armor amount (with no additional reductions) you get 50% damage reduction. Armor becomes negligible when you build too much armor but there is a certain cap when it becomes sufficient. Here are the numbers:

100 armor -> 50% damage reduction 200 armor -> 67% damage reduction 300 armor -> 75% damage reduction 400 armor -> 80% damage reduction

It jumps 17% from 100 to 200 then only 8% from 200 to 300. So the essential amount of armor (and yes, HP too) is somewhere between 200-300. Ezreal in that game had 215 armor.

Yes, armor reduces damage. Great to know. Did I ever say it didnt? Did I ever say that 200 armor doesnt reduce physical damage by 66%? Youre trying to argue a point that nobody is debating, and I'm not sure why youre hung up on it.

Read this next comment as carefully as you can: Many champions can hit 200 armor lategame with 1 armor item, and 200 armor is not that much.

Now, is 200 armor better than 100 armor? Yes. Is 200 better than Zero? Yes. But is 200 a lot? No, its not. 200 Armor after the resistance shred is pretty good. (At which you really need around 400 armor). 200 flat? Not really.

You aren't placed higher than me : http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=nodirjonsattarov , http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=vorattasridon ,http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=afr0sam are my three accounts. It's just my name spelled in reverse on the second one. Also, I do main ADC it's just that Kog'Maw is really bad right now and I can't play my favorite void puppy anywhere else.

Oh, so you bring up your 3 accounts that are G1, G3, and Silver. We really arent that different then. So when you make comments like, "I'd love to play in your elo," well, news flash! You are.

The math is 81 base + 125 bonus armor. You have to factor bonus armor with LDR first rendering 56.25 [.45125] bonus armor. 68.75bonus +81 base = 149.75 armor -40 flat armor =109.75 . Doing it your way gets me 81 + 85 bonus armor then 85-(85.45) =127.75. I'm not sure which way it is or if I did it right so correct me if I'm wrong. Using my method damage multiplier would be x.48% and your way would be x.44%.

EDIT: I forgot to include the 9 armor from runes, sorry.

Flat pen is calculated before % (and reductions are calculated before pen).

You're right, my bad. I agree that Graves gets unusually tanky from having no items. I think both Graves and Urgot get naturally tanky from their abilities.

I suppose I shouldn't have brought up matchups, I was simply trying to create a scenario in Ezreal's situation and other ADCs. I may have mislead you, though.

You arent misleading me, youre just confusing yourself. I never commented on the effectiveness of armor, matchups, or anything of that sort. I dont know why you keep trying to prove your point through these parameters, when I'm simply stating that champions can hit 200 armor with 1 armor item, and 1 armor item really doesnt make you very tanky.

I've already explained that between 200-300 armor is optimal. If I ever see a Rammus with 600 armor I will lose my mind. That's a lot of armor, but is unnecessary. You've continuously said that that 200 isn't alot but haven't said how much "is alot of armor".

Again, dont care about 600 armor Rammus. But just to let you know, 200 armor is NOT optimal for tanking. I dont really wanna go into all the math, but I'll give it if you ask. 200 armor is not the most optimal way to spend your gold if youre trying to tank AD damage for as long as possible. In fact, most of the time buying armor is more effective than straight health.

And as a side note, Rammus has benefits for armor stacking - mostly his passive, his W passive, and his synergy with thornmail.

I've agreed with you countless number of times. I think you aren't reading my comments at all. I've said several times that 215 isn't alot but is still quite a bit of armor. IBG is the 3rd highest armor provider, right under Frozen Heart and Thornmail.

Stop trying to make Iceborn this S-Tier defensive item. Its not. Frozen Heart and Thornmail make you tankier by virtue of having a higher armor stat. Randiuns, Sunfire, and Deadmans provide more effective durability stats even when they dont have as high an armor value due to the health attached to those items. (GA is situationally similar, but you have to make use of your second life).

Of the finished armor items, Iceborn is pretty mediocre in terms of a tanking item. It might be better than, say, Zzrot, but only if you face zero magic damage.

You for real? I've been consistently trying to put numbers out on the table.

Let's start over and only talk about armor, reduction, and damage multipliers.

Youre trying to prove yourself right with all these arguments and metrics that have nothing to do with my post. My post has 2 parts, so answer me these questions:

Can champions hit 215 armor lategame with 1 armor item?

And If you see said champion (ie Garen or Darius with only a thornmail for a defensive item - no additional health or armor), would you call them tanky.

Neko CaitlynNov 6, 20163 votes

Congrats. You can do math.

DoktorKaiserNov 6, 20162 votes

And if he actually bought those 2 items, he will have 0 damage because if you want to play blue build, all your other items after iceborn MUST be damage items or you will be shit tier and barely an adc at all

NodirjonSattarovNov 6, 20162 votes

He built GA last. His following items were: item 3043 item 3153 item 3036 item 3025 item 3026 and lucidity boots.

Ezreal thrives in people's stupidity when ADC don't buy defensive items and get blown up by the current meta of top laners and midlaners. People continue to cry that X champion is OP and when people cry, Ezreal succeeds because his kit synergies so well with his items. Honestly needs to be toned down a bit.

DoktorKaiserNov 6, 20161 votes

And as I said late game, with that builds he deals shit damage, less than any other adc in the game. Only situation where that would be broken is if you fed him extremely which will make any adc snowball and destroy you... Ezreal is strong, nothing broken, if you want broken adc better look at Jinx, Jhin and Caitlyn, and crit Vayne who is just beyond unfair and should be gutted...

NodirjonSattarovNov 6, 20161 votes

I agree with Vayne being a problem, but the other will get out poked (IDK about Caitlyn being outpoked since she's a huge poke champion). I am not complaining about Ezreal, the champion is FINE. I am concerned about the abuse of an item. It is SO gold efficient that it's ridiculous.

MunchCrunchLunchNov 6, 20161 votes

hes sacrificing some damage for it obviously. triforce procs hurt a lot more. they do about 130 more damage and he gets more attack speed fro it

NodirjonSattarovNov 6, 20161 votes

He could get more with Triforce, but who would give up the slow and armor? It's about how reliant a champion is on the item. He honestly doesn't need that much attack speed because of his passive (that's why he is content with building just BoRK for attack speed). Also, what ADC wouldn't want to build an item that they could do damage with AND have the 3rd highest armor item in the game?